Network Vision/LTE - New York City Market

[nexgencpu]

From what I understand 20x20 was scattered around NYC. LI and Jersey defiantly didn't have it. the rootmetric testing period was 11/3/2015 - 11/10/2015 and according two theses two articles is when 20x20 was fully launched in that testing area. my original post was alittle confusing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/tmobile/comments/3s7m2c/nyc_dchspa_sunset_20x20mhz_lte_coming_soon/

https://www.reddit.com/r/tmobile/comments/3smuvk/20x20mhz_lte_live_in_new_york_city/

Also, would like to point out, that when it did finally go live, speeds were only marginally faster (5-10%) 

 

Speeds were once hovering in the 50's+ on a regular basis, when they first launched with 15x15. But even after 20x20 speeds barely crack 20mbs near the tower in midtown Manhattan and are closer to 10-15mbs on average (with an occasional 100+ on an empty sector), still very good for the most part, but the question is, what will those speeds look like in 6 months and with no relief in site.

 

Sprint is currently only rocking 20Mhz of B41 and is experiencing big speed drops, but at least we all know once they finally resolve their legal issues, they can finally deploy the rest of that Band 41 spectrum like other states that didn't rely on Wimax as heavily as NYC.

[mirskyc]

Also, would like to point out, that when it did finally go live, speeds were only marginally faster (5-10%) 

 

Speeds were once hovering in the 50's+ on a regular basis, when they first launched with 15x15. But even after 20x20 speeds barely crack 20mbs near the tower in midtown Manhattan and are closer to 10-15mbs on average, still very good for the most part, but the question is, what will those speeds look like in 6 months and no relief in site.

I think they are now in the process of upgrading backhaul for all these sites to take full advantage of the 20x20. My Peek hour speeds for T-mobile on LI went from 10-15mbps to always above 30mbps. At night ill hit over 100mbps no problem. 

 

 

One reason I think Sprint didn't do as well is that Rootmetircs NYC test includes the metro area. which is what t-mobiles NYC market is. But for Sprint that makes up 3 markets, NYC, Long Island and NJ. There isn't much B41 on LI and there alot of 3G only or B25 onlys sites due to stealth towers. MY speeds on LI are always under 5mbps on B25 or B26 or its 30+ on B41. Out of about 10 B41 towers I know of only 1 is CA enabled. 

[nexgencpu]

I think they are now in the process of upgrading backhaul for all these sites to take full advantage of the 20x20. My Peek hour speeds for T-mobile on LI went from 10-15mbps to always above 30mbps. At night ill hit over 100mbps no problem. 

 

 

One reason I think Sprint didn't do as well is that Rootmetircs NYC test includes the metro area. which is what t-mobiles NYC market is. But for Sprint that makes up 3 markets, NYC, Long Island and NJ. There isn't much B41 on LI and there alot of 3G only or B25 onlys sites due to stealth towers. MY speeds on LI are always under 5mbps on B25 or B26 or its 30+ on B41. Out of about 10 B41 towers I know of only 1 is CA enabled. 

Wait, that makes no sense, if testing was done in the 5 boroughs for Sprint, it should be the same for the rest of the carriers. Simply put, Once they can actually use the spectrum (Wimax is taking up an enormous amount of spectrum) CA will spread like wildfire and would easily double speeds average speeds, especially since they have such a dense B41 network in the main boroughs.

[mirskyc]

Wait, that makes no sense, if testing was done in the 5 boroughs for Sprint, it should be the same for the rest of the carriers. Simply put, Once they can actually use the spectrum (Wimax is taking up an enormous amount of spectrum) CA will spread like wildfire and would easily double speeds average speeds, especially since they have such a dense B41 network in the main boroughs.

Rootmetrics tests outside of the 5 Boroughs, They call it "New York City and Tri-State Area" The boundaries for T-mobile match up closely while Sprints NYC Market includes the 5 b Boroughs and goes further up interstate 87. So the rootmetric test included sprints majority of NYC, LI and part of one of the jersey markets. 

 

I'm not saying tmobile will beat out sprint in the long run. When both there networks are fully up to there max sprint will defiantly beat out t-mobile. Having up to 5 carriers per a tower of B41 and 2xCA will be unstoppable. The rootmetric test is just already out of date in my opinion and t-mobile would be doing much better if it was tested now because of 20x20, upgraded backhaul, and B4 & B12 CA. My test of t-mobile doesn't utilized CA. 

[Paynefanbro]

I think they are now in the process of upgrading backhaul for all these sites to take full advantage of the 20x20. My Peek hour speeds for T-mobile on LI went from 10-15mbps to always above 30mbps. At night ill hit over 100mbps no problem. 

 

 

One reason I think Sprint didn't do as well is that Rootmetircs NYC test includes the metro area. which is what t-mobiles NYC market is. But for Sprint that makes up 3 markets, NYC, Long Island and NJ. There isn't much B41 on LI and there alot of 3G only or B25 onlys sites due to stealth towers. MY speeds on LI are always under 5mbps on B25 or B26 or its 30+ on B41. Out of about 10 B41 towers I know of only 1 is CA enabled. 

 

In reference to this, T-Mobile has been upgrading backhaul in advance for a while according to Milan. Additionally, 20x20 seems to have been live at least for a portion of this testing period. Even then, Verizon managed to beat them out. In my honest opinion, I think it'll be hard for anyone to beat Verizon (this is their home market). Until Sprint gets that 2nd carrier online, they won't be as strong a competitor in NYC as the other 3.

 

In addition, it seems the 20x20 sites don't use carrier aggregation at all so that wouldn't help. It also appears to me that the addition of 700MHz didn't help them in reliability at all. Their reliability score actually worsened slightly.

 

So either way, they would've been testing B12/4 CA or 20x20 Band 4 and either way they lost.

[Deval]

Still they need to convert clear sites to Sprint LTE 8T8R 2.5gz equipment if they want to take advantage of Beamforming.

 

If you look at the actual site density here for B41, both Sprint and Clearwire, I would wager that you don't need to replace the Clearwire equipment till you start doing 3x20 CA. The existing Samsung equipment supports 2x20 CA if I'm not mistaken, just that WiMAX comes in the way.

 

At the end of the day, B41 is not meant to work inbuildings everywhere, that's what B25/26 is for. B41 is going to provide that blanket coverage with capacity for outdoor speeds.

[Deval]

I think they are now in the process of upgrading backhaul for all these sites to take full advantage of the 20x20. My Peek hour speeds for T-mobile on LI went from 10-15mbps to always above 30mbps. At night ill hit over 100mbps no problem. 

 

 

One reason I think Sprint didn't do as well is that Rootmetircs NYC test includes the metro area. which is what t-mobiles NYC market is. But for Sprint that makes up 3 markets, NYC, Long Island and NJ. There isn't much B41 on LI and there alot of 3G only or B25 onlys sites due to stealth towers. MY speeds on LI are always under 5mbps on B25 or B26 or its 30+ on B41. Out of about 10 B41 towers I know of only 1 is CA enabled. 

 

There are a lot of sites with CA enabled in LI, just spread out.

[nexgencpu]

If you look at the actual site density here for B41, both Sprint and Clearwire, I would wager that you don't need to replace the Clearwire equipment till you start doing 3x20 CA. The existing Samsung equipment supports 2x20 CA if I'm not mistaken, just that WiMAX comes in the way.

 

At the end of the day, B41 is not meant to work inbuildings everywhere, that's what B25/26 is for. B41 is going to provide that blanket coverage with capacity for outdoor speeds.

I don't believe our version of clear sites support CA, but what they do support is up to 4x B41 carriers which should do the job for the foreseeable future.

[Paynefanbro]

Sprint just needs to get a 2nd Band 41 carrier online before we can even begin talking about carrier aggregation here. We know that likely won't happen until February of next year.

[Dkoellerwx]

I don't believe our version of clear sites support CA, but what they do support is up to 4x B41 carriers which should do the job for the foreseeable future.

 

I'm pretty sure Deval is right on this one.

[nexgencpu]

I'm pretty sure Deval is right on this one.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sprint/comments/3dehbu/list_of_devices_compatible_with_2x20mhz_and/ct4no2x

[nexgencpu]

I'm pretty sure Deval is right on this one.

There was an updated version of the Samsung equipment that eventually supported CA, but it does not seem our equipment is capable of that.

[Dkoellerwx]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sprint/comments/3dehbu/list_of_devices_compatible_with_2x20mhz_and/ct4no2x

 

 

There was an updated version of the Samsung equipment that eventually supported CA, but it does not seem our equipment is capable of that.

 

I believe that was Bryce referencing the current B41/WiMax situation. Once WiMax is shut off, I'm fairly certain that the equipment in NYC is CA capable. Tim would know for sure.

[orangeblue]

I have seen 2CA active in Las Vegas and WiMax was still running. Same in the Bay Area with Sprint B41 2CA and WiMax still active. So why can't this be done in NYC?

[Dkoellerwx]

I have seen 2CA active in Las Vegas and WiMax was still running. Same in the Bay Area with Sprint B41 2CA and WiMax still active. So why can't this be done in NYC?

 

Because of heavy WiMax use, and the dense network, WiMax is eating up a lot more spectrum than it is in other markets. Other issues as well. I believe that a near majority, or a true majority of B41 in NYC is still from Clear equipment, so until WiMax is shut down, they can't fire up the second carrier for CA. 

[nexgencpu]

I believe that was Bryce referencing the current B41/WiMax situation. Once WiMax is shut off, I'm fairly certain that the equipment in NYC is CA capable. Tim would know for sure.

Im trying to dig up more specific information from Tim. Hopefully he can just chime in on this.

[lilotimz]

Im trying to dig up more specific information from Tim. Hopefully he can just chime in on this.

They should be compatible. Not all may be but most should be. Just gotta shut down wimax first since it's using so much spectrum.

[nexgencpu]

They should be compatible. Not all may be but most should be. Just gotta shut down wimax first since it's using so much spectrum.

So we should see CA on our Clear sites? I thought they were only capable of either dual mode or 4x carriers without CA. 

 

Any specific info on the equipment differences between non CA vs CA Samsung equipment?

[Dkoellerwx]

So we should see CA on our Clear sites? I thought they were only capable of either dual mode or 4x carriers without CA. 

 

Any specific info on the equipment differences between non CA vs CA Samsung equipment?

 

First version vs. second version RRU. That's about it. All of the Clear sites in Kansas City running B41 are also running 2 carriers and CA. I would imagine that many of the Clear sites in your market will be able to do the same. 

[lilotimz]

So we should see CA on our Clear sites? I thought they were only capable of either dual mode or 4x carriers without CA. 

 

Any specific info on the equipment differences between non CA vs CA Samsung equipme

 

Clear equipment will mostly do 2xB41 carriers. They have the capability to do 4x but unknown if they will do so since 4T4R 4x2 MIMO is the name of the game now and the Samsung Clear B41 equipment are capable of doing so. Anymore they'll need to revert to 2x2 MIMO and 2T2R and split the radio like they do with wimax & lte. 

[jaybiz81]

Because of heavy WiMax use, and the dense network, WiMax is eating up a lot more spectrum than it is in other markets. Other issues as well. I believe that a near majority, or a true majority of B41 in NYC is still from Clear equipment, so until WiMax is shut down, they can't fire up the second carrier for CA. 

 

My movement around the City is pretty limited to Manhattan north of 96th and the Bronx south of Fordham, and I can't recall a single time I've seen Sprint B41 in these areas.  Always Clearwire, with maybe one or two exceptions.

 

It is getting bad in areas.  Near 125th/Lex where I wait for the bus home, I have a hard time checking BusTime on B41.  There are more and more instances where I'm putting my phone in CDMA only mode and rocking the 2+MB on 3G.  (Do this as sporting events too... data "flies" since everyone's pretty much on LTE now.)

[nexgencpu]

My movement around the City is pretty limited to Manhattan north of 96th and the Bronx south of Fordham, and I can't recall a single time I've seen Sprint B41 in these areas. Always Clearwire, with maybe one or two exceptions.

 

It is getting bad in areas. Near 125th/Lex where I wait for the bus home, I have a hard time checking BusTime on B41. There are more and more instances where I'm putting my phone in CDMA only mode and rocking the 2+MB on 3G. (Do this as sporting events too... data "flies" since everyone's pretty much on LTE now.)

I travel mostly all over manhattan bronx bk and a bit of queens. Looking at my Signal check logs I'd say it's about 60:40 Clear:Sprint B41.

[jaybiz81]

I travel mostly all over manhattan bronx bk and a bit of queens. Looking at my Signal check logs I'd say it's about 60:40 clear:Sprint B41.

 

Nice. I got Sprint B41 in Washington Heights today near 190/Bway.  I live across the street from a Clear site that I can't wait to be switched out of dual mode.  Hopefully Sprint settles the WiMax dispute out of court and can resolve this sooner than the 90 day limit.

[Paynefanbro]

Nice. I got Sprint B41 in Washington Heights today near 190/Bway.  I live across the street from a Clear site that I can't wait to be switched out of dual mode.  Hopefully Sprint settles the WiMax dispute out of court and can resolve this sooner than the 90 day limit.

 

I'm hopeful but at the same time, they companies that caused this to happen really have no incentive to move fast at all.

[Deval]

I don't believe our version of clear sites support CA, but what they do support is up to 4x B41 carriers which should do the job for the foreseeable future.

 

Even if a Clearwire site can't support CA, as long as it broadcasts both LTE carriers, it serves the purpose.