Network Vision/LTE - New York City Market

[AirlineFlyer]

On 5/14/2021 at 2:30 PM, thisischuck01 said:

On another note, very amusing to see the T-Mobile subreddit respond to that NYC mmWave speedtest the other day.

Yes, hi, hello. That was my post. This sure seems like a place to post for some more knowledgable info. I took that speedtest standing across the street from eNB 50319. It is one of those weird T-Mobile NYC sites that only has 2/66/12 LTE and had LAA-LTE and mmWave installed a few years ago but never got n71 or n41. I was really disappointed to see mmWave pumping out under 500 Mbps since LAA-LTE can achieve that without mmWave.

On 5/2/2021 at 1:34 PM, Paynefanbro said:

I was in Greenpoint and LIC on Friday and was saying to myself that I hope T-Mobile keeps that site right by the creek. It's a shame that that doesn't seem to be the case.

With all of the new buildings going up near the waterfront, T-Mobile has virtually one site (eNB 45653) to cover all of the high-rises along the Long Island City waterfront and one site (eNB 42891) to barely cover Greenpoint Landing (which when complete will add 5,500 new units to the neighborhood). That's not good. T-Mobile needs to be a lot more proactive about building new sites in rapidly developing neighborhoods. For comparison, Starrett City in southeast Brooklyn has ~5,800 units and T-Mobile has 3 sites covering it.

This has been increasingly disappointing for me with T-Mobile in recent years. There are huge areas being built up in LIC, Hunters Point South, Greenpoint etc and T-Mobile is seriously going to abandon Sites like the Greenpoint location? What are they thinking??

[Paynefanbro]

1 hour ago, AirlineFlyer said:

Yes, hi, hello. That was my post. This sure seems like a place to post for some more knowledgable info. I took that speedtest standing across the street from eNB 50319. It is one of those weird T-Mobile NYC sites that only has 2/66/12 LTE and had LAA-LTE and mmWave installed a few years ago but never got n71 or n41. I was really disappointed to see mmWave pumping out under 500 Mbps since LAA-LTE can achieve that without mmWave.

For what it's worth, that site will almost certainly get n41 and n71 by the end of this year. It seems that every site that T-Mobile touches gets the full suite of bands except mmWave or LAA. 

The issue with mmWave in NYC is that it's currently only 100MHz (two aggregated 50MHz carriers). Aggregated with LTE, I've seen some users get peak speeds of over 700Mbps but in my own experience I can only barely get over 500Mbps.

I've brought it up a million times before in this thread but T-Mobile has something like 1400MHz of mmWave spectrum in NYC, second only to Verizon. The problem is that T-Mobile's current mmWave equipment was deployed when they only had access to that 100MHz of n261(28GHz) spectrum. Their current mmWave holdings are spread over n258 (two 200MHz carriers), n261 (two 50MHz carriers), n260 (contiguous 400MHz), and 47GHz (contiguous 500MHz but doesn't even have a band plan yet).

So for T-Mobile to get those multi gigabit speeds that we've seen come from Verizon and AT&T here in NYC, they'd need to swap out the current mmWave antennas for antennas that supports all of that spectrum. Additionally, phones would have to be capable of aggregating some of those bands and T-Mobile would also need to increase backhaul significantly to support throughput that high, something that they rarely do.

1 hour ago, AirlineFlyer said:

This has been increasingly disappointing for me with T-Mobile in recent years. There are huge areas being built up in LIC, Hunters Point South, Greenpoint etc and T-Mobile is seriously going to abandon Sites like the Greenpoint location? What are they thinking??

T-Mobile isn't very proactive when it comes to building new sites, they're reactive. While trying to confirm Verizon sites on Cellmapper, I found a permit where Verizon integrated a macro site into the construction of an apartment building in Downtown Brooklyn. T-Mobile is not doing anything like that here. Instead, we'll probably be lucky if in 5 years when most of the redevelopment of the waterfront is complete, T-Mobile adds macros to cover those neighborhoods better.

[AirlineFlyer]

13 minutes ago, Paynefanbro said:

T-Mobile isn't very proactive when it comes to building new sites, they're reactive. While trying to confirm Verizon sites on Cellmapper, I found a permit where Verizon integrated a macro site into the construction of an apartment building in Downtown Brooklyn. T-Mobile is not doing anything like that here. Instead, we'll probably be lucky if in 5 years when most of the redevelopment of the waterfront is complete, T-Mobile adds macros to cover those neighborhoods better.

Out of curiosity, which Downtown Brooklyn building had a vzw macro installed? T-Mobile has shifted some of its sites around recently due to one building coming down and another being remediated for asbestos, but noting new build AFAIK.

Edited May 17, 2021 by AirlineFlyer

[Paynefanbro]

6 minutes ago, AirlineFlyer said:

Out of curiosity, which Downtown Brooklyn building had a vzw macro installed? T-Mobile has shifted some of its sites around recently due to one building coming down and another being remediated for asbestos, but noting new build AFAIK.

eNB ID 84502. It's The Ashland at the corner of Fulton and Ashland Pl. 

Permit states:

Quote

ALTERATION TYPE 3 - ANTENNA INSTALL TELECOMMUNICATIONS EQUIPMENT ON THE 2ND FLOOR. RELATED ANTENNAS ON FACADE. RELATED GPS ON ROOF. ALL IN CONFORMANCE WITH TPPN # 5/98. NO CHANGE IN USE, EGRESS OR OCCUPANCY. VERIZON RELATED CABLING AND EQUIPMENT ON FLOORS 7 & 8.

 

[AirlineFlyer]

11 minutes ago, Paynefanbro said:

eNB ID 84502. It's The Ashland at the corner of Fulton and Ashland Pl. 

Permit states:

 

That's super interesting, I hadn't noticed that before. It looks like the vzw antennas are integrated right into the exterior wall of the building. That is super cool. https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6879694,-73.978504,3a,15y,260.61h,127.91t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6EcJxy751hetyHGJxQTV7A!2e0!5s20201101T000000!7i16384!8i8192

[RAvirani]

15 minutes ago, AirlineFlyer said:

That's super interesting, I hadn't noticed that before. It looks like the vzw antennas are integrated right into the exterior wall of the building. That is super cool. https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6879694,-73.978504,3a,15y,260.61h,127.91t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6EcJxy751hetyHGJxQTV7A!2e0!5s20201101T000000!7i16384!8i8192

These setups are becoming increasingly common in downtown areas across the country. Carriers don't want their RAD centers at high elevations in dense areas because that creates a lot of noise between sites. But sometimes, there isn't a short building within the search ring!

Here's another example in downtown Milwaukee:

https://goo.gl/maps/4qhYwCCGAtZkdDAv5

[AirlineFlyer]

15 minutes ago, RAvirani said:

These setups are becoming increasingly common in downtown areas across the country. Carriers don't want their RAD centers at high elevations in dense areas because that creates a lot of noise between sites. But sometimes, there isn't a short building within the search ring!

Here's another example in downtown Milwaukee:

https://goo.gl/maps/4qhYwCCGAtZkdDAv5

There are tons of these types of installs throughout NYC, I've just never seen it integrated directly into a new build like this. It's very smart.

[wispiANt]

45 minutes ago, AirlineFlyer said:

There are tons of these types of installs throughout NYC, I've just never seen it integrated directly into a new build like this. It's very smart.

There's quite a few in midtown! Check out 494 8th Ave or 461 8th Ave, for example. Definitely cool stuff, though I gotta say it does make identification a real PITA, haha.

[Paynefanbro]

There's also this T-Mobile Band 2/12/66 site on top of someone's townhouse in Manhattan. They put incredibly small antennas on it.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7269602,-74.0034256,3a,22.2y,308.55h,114.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQRARHoR4nKkXU75qFFdTGQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[Dkoellerwx]

39 minutes ago, Paynefanbro said:

There's also this T-Mobile Band 2/12/66 site on top of someone's townhouse in Manhattan. They put incredibly small antennas on it.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7269602,-74.0034256,3a,22.2y,308.55h,114.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQRARHoR4nKkXU75qFFdTGQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Dang, that's practically a small cell, if it weren't for that mess of wires!

[AirlineFlyer]

On 5/17/2021 at 6:39 PM, Dkoellerwx said:

Dang, that's practically a small cell, if it weren't for that mess of wires!

There's another T-Mobile site in Fort Greene that looks like a small cell. It has been around and untouched for many years and only manages to pump out about 5 Mbps. Sites like this have got to go.

[Paynefanbro]

13 hours ago, AirlineFlyer said:

There's another T-Mobile site in Fort Greene that looks like a small cell. It has been around and untouched for many years and only manages to pump out about 5 Mbps. Sites like this have got to go.

If that site ever gets upgraded it'll likely be one of the last to do so. Luckily, sites like these are usually just for minor infill coverage and not for broader macro coverage. They serve as an intermediary between a typical small cell and a full-build macro site.

The site on the townhouse that I posted has a radius of about 1-2 blocks. The Band 12 antenna was only added in 2019. My hope is that a lot of these intermediary sites are eventually converted into mmWave sites and get improved backhaul. The antenna size would be similar to what's currently there, coverage area would be similar to what's already available, and speeds would be much higher in theory.

[wispiANt]

Super happy to see continued n41 rollout/densification in NYC. This site (eNB 128041) was upgraded within the last week. Unfortunately B41 isn't yet live, so couldn't map, but pulled some very healthy speeds on NSA n41. 

Across the street from this is one of the few Sprint sites I've found with B25/B26 deployed on 310-120 but B41 deployed on 311-940. Does anyone know what is up with these? I feel like I am totally out of the loop as to why they still have sites configured like this.

[wispiANt]

 

[ingenium]

22 hours ago, thisischuck01 said:

Super happy to see continued n41 rollout/densification in NYC. This site (eNB 128041) was upgraded within the last week. Unfortunately B41 isn't yet live, so couldn't map, but pulled some very healthy speeds on NSA n41. 

Across the street from this is one of the few Sprint sites I've found with B25/B26 deployed on 310-120 but B41 deployed on 311-940. Does anyone know what is up with these? I feel like I am totally out of the loop as to why they still have sites configured like this.

Sprint sites broadcast 5-6 PLMNs typically. All have 310-120 and 311-490 (and 312-530). Which your phone connects to depends on a few things, but honestly I wouldn't read too much into it. The Android API will also return a mixture of the PLMNs depending on which API method is used, if you have TNA, etc. Sometimes it will report the SIMs native PLMN, sometimes it'll report the PLMN that the cell is broadcasting, etc. On Sprint these are often different. For example, with TNA, it will report 311-490 for the SIM's native PLMN, but the LTE17 API (what the connected cell is broadcasting itself as) will be 310-120.

[wispiANt]

22 minutes ago, ingenium said:

Sprint sites broadcast 5-6 PLMNs typically. All have 310-120 and 311-490 (and 312-530). Which your phone connects to depends on a few things, but honestly I wouldn't read too much into it. The Android API will also return a mixture of the PLMNs depending on which API method is used, if you have TNA, etc. Sometimes it will report the SIMs native PLMN, sometimes it'll report the PLMN that the cell is broadcasting, etc. On Sprint these are often different. For example, with TNA, it will report 311-490 for the SIM's native PLMN, but the LTE17 API (what the connected cell is broadcasting itself as) will be 310-120.

I've found that the sites in NYC that have B41 deployed on 311-940 won't have B41 broadcasting on any other PLMN, whereas B25/B26 from the site will be broadcasted on all PLMNs (310-120, 312-530, 311-490, etc). It's kinda annoying as a T-Mobile customer because it means I don't have access to B41 on these sites.

[Paynefanbro]

Traffic in a lot of places is returning to pre-pandemic levels so it's a good opportunity to test out the 5G network in lots of locations.

Yesterday I drove down to Gravesend from Crown Heights for pizza and there was a ton of n41 along the way which was expected. I did encounter a few sites that were still 2/12/66 after all of these years (for example eNB ID 47016). Luckily, T-Mobile has upgraded enough sites such even with these sites having no 5G, neighboring sites provide infill 5G coverage.

While in Gravesend I was primarily connected to eNB 41220. Unfortunately I wasn't able to confirm if the site received n41 yet but speeds were really bad even though ping was really low. On 5G I was getting pings in the low teens but speeds were about 6 down and 17 up despite having a pretty good signal. I'm thinking that backhaul may just be under-provisioned on the site.

I also got to go back to Roosevelt Field Mall (which was incredibly packed) and speeds were great. According to Cellmapper, all 3 of the sites that serve the mall have n71 at the very least and at least one has n41. Indoors I was getting speeds of nearly 200 down and 60Mbps up with pings in the high 20's. The 5G upgrades also improved LTE performance as I was easily capable of getting speeds above 150Mbps on LTE too.

[Paynefanbro]

Recently I've been confirming the location of a lot of the split eNBs in Cellmapper along with locating unconfirmed sites and one thing I've noticed is that T-Mobile seems to have some sort of deal with PSEG (the ConEd of Long Island) to put up towers at their substations. The towers are always wooden poles with one set of 2/66 antennas. My guess is that T-Mobile is in no rush to upgrade these towers or they won't get 5G until they start deploying n66 here.

Some good examples are:

eNB 45864: https://goo.gl/maps/eCAMm6TrH29tiEr5A

eNB 45861: https://goo.gl/maps/Ci7rddeezcwa33jq5

eNB 49541: https://goo.gl/maps/47YMWeXECuMMzb92A

eNB 50419: https://goo.gl/maps/U41aS2UptSr9stFc6

[jasonsteele]

1 hour ago, Paynefanbro said:

Recently I've been confirming the location of a lot of the split eNBs in Cellmapper along with locating unconfirmed sites and one thing I've noticed is that T-Mobile seems to have some sort of deal with PSEG (the ConEd of Long Island) to put up towers at their substations. The towers are always wooden poles with one set of 2/66 antennas. My guess is that T-Mobile is in no rush to upgrade these towers or they won't get 5G until they start deploying n66 here.

Some good examples are:

eNB 45864: https://goo.gl/maps/eCAMm6TrH29tiEr5A

eNB 45861: https://goo.gl/maps/Ci7rddeezcwa33jq5

eNB 49541: https://goo.gl/maps/47YMWeXECuMMzb92A

eNB 50419: https://goo.gl/maps/U41aS2UptSr9stFc6

A lot of those in my area (burbs of Phoenix), except the poles are steel and carry power lines. They put them on top like a finial. There are a lot of flagpoles too, I don’t see how they can squeeze a n71 antenna on/in them or even a n41 antenna. I’ll take n66 though, might have to wait awhile. Full builds are spaced way apart around here and these just seem like infill.

[mirskyc]

On 5/23/2021 at 4:53 PM, Paynefanbro said:

Recently I've been confirming the location of a lot of the split eNBs in Cellmapper along with locating unconfirmed sites and one thing I've noticed is that T-Mobile seems to have some sort of deal with PSEG (the ConEd of Long Island) to put up towers at their substations. The towers are always wooden poles with one set of 2/66 antennas. My guess is that T-Mobile is in no rush to upgrade these towers or they won't get 5G until they start deploying n66 here.

Some good examples are:

eNB 45864: https://goo.gl/maps/eCAMm6TrH29tiEr5A

eNB 45861: https://goo.gl/maps/Ci7rddeezcwa33jq5

eNB 49541: https://goo.gl/maps/47YMWeXECuMMzb92A

eNB 50419: https://goo.gl/maps/U41aS2UptSr9stFc6

These look like the oDAS sites from metro. Sprint had one of these sites that was still 3G only 3 years ago. Not sure status of it now. 

[mirskyc]

On 5/21/2021 at 5:28 PM, thisischuck01 said:

 

This went live in Astoria yesterday.  Just had it pop up in midtown today. Seems like it's work in progress. 5G has been on and off all day on the site that covers my office. 

 

[T-MoblieUser207]

On 5/21/2021 at 5:28 PM, thisischuck01 said:

 

T-Mobile expanded n41 within the same footprint of the former (current depending on location) 60 MHz block by adding 10 MHz at each side. Now there is a reason for 2558 MHz T-Mobile LTE block being replaced for 2538.2 MHz, as 80 MHz n41 with 520110 EARFCN means its 2560.55 MHz to 2640.55 MHz.

I think 2660.2 carrier is gone from Sprint macros, dropping Sprint from 40 to 20 MHz B41. Checking 2 macros isn't enough data to confirm this IMO, so I'm asking if anyone else has seen the same thing. Space for 100 MHz n41 is there, if its gone or not, just a waiting game for when 100 MHz happens. If its gone, Sprint's network is on its last legs in terms of spectrum usage. Maybe Sprint to T-Mobile conversions might start to ramp soon?

While also still on the topic of 2.5 Ghz, its possible T-Mobile is making moves to place n41 and LTE in the L tunnel. No 2.5Ghz is in use on the subway system's DAS currently, but I guess we will find out eventually what their plans are.

[mirskyc]

7 hours ago, T-MoblieUser207 said:

T-Mobile expanded n41 within the same footprint of the former (current depending on location) 60 MHz block by adding 10 MHz at each side. Now there is a reason for 2558 MHz T-Mobile LTE block being replaced for 2538.2 MHz, as 80 MHz n41 with 520110 EARFCN means its 2560.55 MHz to 2640.55 MHz.

I think 2660.2 carrier is gone from Sprint macros, dropping Sprint from 40 to 20 MHz B41. Checking 2 macros isn't enough data to confirm this IMO, so I'm asking if anyone else has seen the same thing. Space for 100 MHz n41 is there, if its gone or not, just a waiting game for when 100 MHz happens. If its gone, Sprint's network is on its last legs in terms of spectrum usage. Maybe Sprint to T-Mobile conversions might start to ramp soon?

While also still on the topic of 2.5 Ghz, its possible T-Mobile is making moves to place n41 and LTE in the L tunnel. No 2.5Ghz is in use on the subway system's DAS currently, but I guess we will find out eventually what their plans are.

Not sure if it's still in use but there was B41 used in a few major stations like Grand Central 42nd Street. It was only 40mhz even though Sprint had 60 MHz deployed at the time.  

[wispiANt]

n41 was bumped up to 80MHz in Brooklyn (Williamsburg) overnight. Not noticing an increase in average speeds on my local site, either in the downlink or uplink.

8 hours ago, T-MoblieUser207 said:

I think 2660.2 carrier is gone from Sprint macros, dropping Sprint from 40 to 20 MHz B41. Checking 2 macros isn't enough data to confirm this IMO, so I'm asking if anyone else has seen the same thing.

I'm seeing the same thing. I'll see if I can't check out a few more sites today.

[PedroDaGr8]

10 hours ago, T-MoblieUser207 said:

T-Mobile expanded n41 within the same footprint of the former (current depending on location) 60 MHz block by adding 10 MHz at each side. Now there is a reason for 2558 MHz T-Mobile LTE block being replaced for 2538.2 MHz, as 80 MHz n41 with 520110 EARFCN means its 2560.55 MHz to 2640.55 MHz.
 

I noticed similar up here in the PNW. First, they moved Sprints B41 carriers from 2628.8/2648.6/2668.4 to 2640.4/2660.2/2680.0. At this time they began rolling out n41 and TMobile B41 on channels 2538.2/2558.0 plus on a couple sites they included a third B41 carrier on 2518.4 (if n41 BW was only 40MHz).

Next, they axed the Sprint 2640 channel, reducing Sprint sites to 2xB41. This allowed them to move/expand n41 from 2597.0/60 to 2607.8/80.

At the beginning of this month, I noticed that they have started migrating the 2558.0 B41 sectors down to 2518.4. My guess is in preparation for the announced 100MHz n41 channel.