Network Vision/LTE - New York City Market

[Paynefanbro]

It sounds like your area is a bit spectrum constrained on Band 41. Hopefully T-Mobile buys or leases the spectrum from the squatters holding onto it. Sprint didn't really have the funds or bargaining position to negotiate those squatters away. The new T-Mobile does.

[nexgencpu]

6 hours ago, transitwatch889 said:

I am now connecting to 15 megahertz of T-Mobile band 41! In addition to the 20 MHz of NR 41. From what I can tell the Sprint site is still transmitting three carriers of two band 41, 20 wide channels and a 10 wide channel. For total 50 MHz there 

B41+B41 in CA? 

[transitwatch889]

7 hours ago, nexgencpu said:

B41+B41 in CA? 

No it drops off to just straight LTE single carrier!

[nexgencpu]

4 hours ago, transitwatch889 said:

No it drops off to just straight LTE single carrier!

Thanks,

Funny, I meant N41+B41(autocorrect switches N to B for some reason) but you still understood what I meant. lol

[transitwatch889]

3 hours ago, nexgencpu said:

Thanks,

Funny, I meant N41+B41(autocorrect switches N to B for some reason) but you still understood what I meant. lol

Yeah I understood! But I don't think T-Mobile wants to do that because they pretty much told Sprint customers with their first generation 5G devices they were no good just to turn around and then say psych we got you LOL! So it's still just anchoring to b2/4/66

[Paynefanbro]

I got an iPhone 12 Pro Max and one of the things I've noticed is consistently higher 5G speeds on it than I used to get on my S20 Ultra. I have also noticed that it seems to have an easier time connecting to and staying on 5G even in Auto mode. In Manhattan in area where I knew I should have mmWave coverage but I always had trouble connecting with my S20 Ultra, the iPhone connected and gave me over 400Mbps down.

Another thing that Apple did with the iPhone is that when your device is actually connected to 5G, the signal strength indicator reflects your 5G signal strength as opposed to your LTE signal strength. So if you're in an area with weak 5G but strong LTE, you'll only see 1 or 2 bars. Once you drop out of 5G coverage, it'll go back to reflecting LTE signal strength while still showing the 5G icon in the top right.

I got my fastest speeds ever from my home site just now on this phone.

[Paynefanbro]

Another update. My mom purchased an iPhone 12 Pro Max on Verizon today. At my house, she has between 1-2 bars of n5 and speeds have ranged from 60-100Mbps so far.

One thing I've noticed is that DSS seems to provide very inconsistent speeds. The same speed test in one spot gives me wildly varying results.

[transitwatch889]

So I don't know if they're doing some Network optimizations in my area because of the new tower builds but I keep dropping down to a single channel of either band 12 or band 41. And rolling off nr41 off to nr71 even though the signal is there. It's kind of annoying to constantly see the indicator jump in and out of frequencies.

I feel like T-Mobile has too many bands and there's like no priority to which when you lock onto and then drop off to from there.

[Paynefanbro]

I don't know if it's T-Mobile upgrading sites or if its just the iPhone having a great radio but 5G coverage is now near contiguous throughout most of northern/northeastern Brooklyn. There are still areas in my own neighborhood where I'll drop down to 1 bar of 5G and I've even dropped down to LTE in Brooklyn Heights recently but for the most part 5G coverage and performance is finally at the point where it's comparable to Sprint's pre-merger 5G network (in the areas I've tested).

I've also noticed that as of the most recent update on the iPhone it won't show a 5G icon if 5G isn't available. If you're out of 5G coverage it'll say LTE even if the site in ENDC capable. When you're in 5G coverage it'll show the 5G icon. It's super useful for tracking 5G deployments though I do wish Apple would let us get the same amount of info as Samsung devices give.

[mirskyc]

I was on LI yesterday and was surprised to see that N71 is still only 5x5 but B71 is now 10x10.  Interesting that they went with the opposite deployment they went with in NYC. 

 

[Paynefanbro]

T-Mobile's mmWave network is impressive in that it's still the largest mmWave network in NYC despite them pretty much not working on it at all for over a year however, speeds on mmWave in my experience are always slower than midband. It's not like T-Mobile lacks the spectrum to provide Verizon-like mmWave speeds. They got 400MHz of 39GHz spectrum in Auction 103 back in December 2019. In spite of that they insist on using the 50MHz + 50MHz of 28GHz.

I don't know why they don't just overlay their macro footprint again with n260 antennas like they did before and provide those gigabit speeds across all of Manhattan and parts of the outer boroughs. They say that NYC is one of their markets where they have implemented their layer-cake strategy but their mmWave layer in it's current state is not as much of a capacity layer as they advertise given n41 has higher throughput both theoretically and on average than their mmWave network here. 

[Paynefanbro]

T-Mobile LTE vs 5G inside Roosevelt Field Mall. This was one of the few times I've experienced significantly better performance on LTE compared to 5G. I wish I had the same level of insight into what bands I was connected to like I did on my Samsung device because then I'd be able to determine why exactly speeds were so much faster on LTE compared to 5G (which I'm assuming is n71). Any guesses?

I know @mirskyc said that Band 71 is 10x10 vs n71 which is 5x5 in Long Island but that shouldn't translate to ~4.7x faster speeds on LTE compared to 5G.

Edit: I also wanted to note than on the drive from Brooklyn to Garden City I only dropped 5G once and it was for about 1 minute before I reconnected to a weak 5G signal again and stayed connected for the rest of my trip. Additionally there was no Verizon 5G coverage at Roosevelt Field despite their coverage map showing the area blanketed in "nationwide 5G".

[mirskyc]

21 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

T-Mobile's mmWave network is impressive in that it's still the largest mmWave network in NYC despite them pretty much not working on it at all for over a year however, speeds on mmWave in my experience are always slower than midband. It's not like T-Mobile lacks the spectrum to provide Verizon-like mmWave speeds. They got 400MHz of 39GHz spectrum in Auction 103 back in December 2019. In spite of that they insist on using the 50MHz + 50MHz of 28GHz.

I don't know why they don't just overlay their macro footprint again with n260 antennas like they did before and provide those gigabit speeds across all of Manhattan and parts of the outer boroughs. They say that NYC is one of their markets where they have implemented their layer-cake strategy but their mmWave layer in it's current state is not as much of a capacity layer as they advertise given n41 has higher throughput both theoretically and on average than their mmWave network here. 

i've noticed this too. mmWave speeds are never over 200Mbps, as i walk away from the site an connect to NR41 I almost always get faster speeds. I really wish they used more mmWave spectrum and also put it on every site including outside of manhattan. Would love to see mmWave and NR41 in all the small cell towers in NYC. 

44 minutes ago, Paynefanbro said:

T-Mobile LTE vs 5G inside Roosevelt Field Mall. This was one of the few times I've experienced significantly better performance on LTE compared to 5G. I wish I had the same level of insight into what bands I was connected to like I did on my Samsung device because then I'd be able to determine why exactly speeds were so much faster on LTE compared to 5G (which I'm assuming is n71). Any guesses?

I know @mirskyc said that Band 71 is 10x10 vs n71 which is 5x5 in Long Island but that shouldn't translate to ~4.7x faster speeds on LTE compared to 5G.

Edit: I also wanted to note than on the drive from Brooklyn to Garden City I only dropped 5G once and it was for about 1 minute before I reconnected to a weak 5G signal again and stayed connected for the rest of my trip. Additionally there was no Verizon 5G coverage at Roosevelt Field despite their coverage map showing the area blanketed in "nationwide 5G".

Had a similar situation near the mall yesterday. I was at Microcenter in Westbury. Couldn't do anything on 5G even send a iMessage. Had to turn off 5G on my iPhone 12 Mini to get anything done and speeds were about 30Mbps. Speed test wouldn't even load on 5G. I have a Mint Mobile sim in my Galaxy S20 Ultra 5G which also would load anything on 5G. I put that phone on 3G only and it was able to load everything. Since the anchor bands are the same I'm wondering if there was just something wrong with that site since LTE alone was working. 

 

[Paynefanbro]

26 minutes ago, mirskyc said:

Had a similar situation near the mall yesterday. I was at Microcenter in Westbury. Couldn't do anything on 5G even send a iMessage. Had to turn off 5G on my iPhone 12 Mini to get anything done and speeds were about 30Mbps. Speed test wouldn't even load on 5G. I have a Mint Mobile sim in my Galaxy S20 Ultra 5G which also would load anything on 5G. I put that phone on 3G only and it was able to load everything. Since the anchor bands are the same I'm wondering if there was just something wrong with that site since LTE alone was working. 

I had the same experience at the mall at first. Data would't load on 5G at all. In fact my first few speed tests wouldn't get more than 1Mbps so I assumed something was wrong. I ended up doing an airplane mode cycle and switching my phone to LTE-only mode and back to 5G mode before I was able to use 5G data. I don't know if it's a technical issue with the sites in the area or if their 5G network is already oversold given all of the big box stores around there.

[Paynefanbro]

I'm finding that if I put my phone in LTE only mode that I get put on Band 41 almost immediately. Speeds are great at around 70-80Mbps down and 6Mbps up. I wonder if T-Mobile's plan for these Band 41 LTE carriers is to leave them as they are (a separate capacity layer) or if they plan on seeking authorization from the FCC to aggregate it with their other spectrum holdings to boost peak speeds. If they choose the latter then peak LTE speeds in my neighborhood would likely be over 300Mbps. They also have another 5MHz of AWS for whenever they decide to shut down their HSPA+ network in NYC.

That seems like it would be enough capacity for all of the Sprint customers that have yet to migrate to the T-Mobile network.

I'm also curious as to when T-Mobile plans on expanding n41 to 60MHz here too. In Brooklyn they own about 120MHz split into one 60MHz contiguous block, one 40MHz contiguous block, and one 20MHz carrier. All it should take is a spectrum swap. Neville mentioned a while back that by year end that we should start seeing the first 80MHz and 100MHz markets so I'm hoping that T-Mobile plans expanding NYC to 60MHz soon.

[wispiANt]

Agreed - I've been pleasantly surprised by B41. Even with a relatively poor signal (-105dBM), I've regularly been able to pull 60+ Mb/s. Would love to see further B2/B66/B12/B71 CA combos added to devices. T-Mobile should at least be able to push Sprint's B25/B41 CA combos to devices without FCC approval.

Band priority has definitely changed, as well. B41 still doesn't seem to be the primary band in my area, but I've often found myself on it without the need to band-lock (which tended to be the only way I could connect in the past).

[wispiANt]

Been doing some mapping in the Williamsburg area. A disappointing amount of B/n41 deployment, but have discovered some new oDAS deployment (eNB 137445). The node I mapped was Sector 5, so here's hoping there's a few more in the area. B2/B46/B66.

[Paynefanbro]

I've been looking at Cellmapper and I've noticed that T-Mobile is starting to fix those split eNB IDs in parts of Crown Heights. Some sites are now showing Band 71/Band 12 with the same eNB ID as Band 2/4/66 again.

[Paynefanbro]

The evolution of BRS/EBS on Sprint/T-Mobile. The first speed test is one I did on "Sprint Spark" 6 years ago, the second is on "LTE Plus" about 3 years ago, and the last test is my new personal best on my home site on n41.

 

[Wfmets45]

How is T-Mobile n41 deployment coming along in Brooklyn, mainly Borough Park?

 

is there map to keep track of their deployment?

[Paynefanbro]

1 hour ago, Wfmets45 said:

How is T-Mobile n41 deployment coming along in Brooklyn, mainly Borough Park?

 

is there map to keep track of their deployment?

I haven't been to Borough Park in a while but I know that the neighborhoods nearby like Flatbush, Kensington, and Prospect Park South all have n41 on a bunch of sites. At the very least n71 should be mostly built out by now so I would expect contiguous 5G coverage there. 

Unfortunately there's no way for us to track n41 deployment yet besides using cellmapper.net and even then, we can only track sites where T-Mobile turned Band 41 on. I do see a bunch of split eNBs for Band 71 in Borough Park though which means T-Mobile has likely touched those sites recently. At the very least they got modernized/new equipment. I'd guess that most of those splits also got n41 added to them along with the new Band 2/4/66/12/71 panels.

[Paynefanbro]

Does anyone know what that big panel with the split in it is on this T-Mobile site?

[Wfmets45]

6 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

I haven't been to Borough Park in a while but I know that the neighborhoods nearby like Flatbush, Kensington, and Prospect Park South all have n41 on a bunch of sites. At the very least n71 should be mostly built out by now so I would expect contiguous 5G coverage there. 

Unfortunately there's no way for us to track n41 deployment yet besides using cellmapper.net and even then, we can only track sites where T-Mobile turned Band 41 on. I do see a bunch of split eNBs for Band 71 in Borough Park though which means T-Mobile has likely touched those sites recently. At the very least they got modernized/new equipment. I'd guess that most of those splits also got n41 added to them along with the new Band 2/4/66/12/71 panels.

Thank you.

The reason I ask is because I have yet to see n41 speeds and all I see is n71 for 5G and Band 2 and 66 for LTE. I have the iPhone 12 on TNX.

[transitwatch889]

I will say that I am noticing that with the new deployment and my particular area. That n41 itself will drop off to band 41 LTE or band 12 LTE very quickly. The moment that you turn a corner it's releasing the signal and catching a new sector.

[wispiANt]

21 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

Does anyone know what that big panel with the split in it is on this T-Mobile site?

Can't recall the model number off the top of my head, but it's a CommScope antenna. B2/B66 sector split. Don't believe they're rolling out this model anymore, the Ericsson 3246 is the new go-to.

 

Edit: Believe it's the CommScope 2HH‐38A‐R4.