Official Tmobile-Sprint merger discussion thread

[radem]

I would guess this: https://ast-science.com/spacemobile/

[iansltx]

My guess here would be T-Mobile officially partnering with Starlink on rural backhaul. There isn't quite enough capacity to run n41 off of Starlink and get a significant throughput bump out of it, but n71+n25+n66+LTE? Absolutely. Which would allow T-Mobile to plunk down new rural sites wherever, and quickly bump any sites that can't get sufficient backhaul right now. Maybe that's 5k rural sites...which would massively improve coverage and reduce the need for roaming. Basically anything Starlink charges will be less expensive than roaming data, though I wouldn't expect T-Mobile home internet to be available on Starlink-fed sites.

I doubt it's a Spacemobile-like thing in part because getting that type of equipment into orbit would've leaked.

[dkyeager]

5 hours ago, iansltx said:

My guess here would be T-Mobile officially partnering with Starlink on rural backhaul. There isn't quite enough capacity to run n41 off of Starlink and get a significant throughput bump out of it, but n71+n25+n66+LTE? Absolutely. Which would allow T-Mobile to plunk down new rural sites wherever, and quickly bump any sites that can't get sufficient backhaul right now. Maybe that's 5k rural sites...which would massively improve coverage and reduce the need for roaming. Basically anything Starlink charges will be less expensive than roaming data, though I wouldn't expect T-Mobile home internet to be available on Starlink-fed sites.

I doubt it's a Spacemobile-like thing in part because getting that type of equipment into orbit would've leaked.

Agree.  Also for rural site management, especially at the end of fiber runs.  Sprint previously used satellite links for this previously.  Could also be used to boost capacity and redundancy.  Perhaps limited small cells like above.

[schmidtj]

Frome here: https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/24/23320133/spacex-starlink-t-mobile-connectivity-5g-satellite-elon-musk

This: Perhaps it’s a spectrum announcement of some kind? A partnership to strengthen both Starlink’s sometimes-overloaded satellite internet connections in rural areas and T-Mobile’s home internet product that doesn’t have quite enough coverage? A SpaceX deal for T-Mobile subscribers?

[radem]

It was what I posted: space mobile . A small amount of T-Mobile PCS spectrum and a satellite cell antenna built into Starlink gen2 satellites supported on existing mobile devices.  Starlink will also support other carriers.  T-mobile beta will start towards the end of 2022 with messaging services available in outside no service areas in the US for free on magenta plans.

[Flompholph]

Limited to 2-4 Mbps per cell which I think are the size of Louisiana. Should be only good enough for texts and a phone call here and there. But used as a last resort network it may keep dropped calls from dropping going in between sites if you have access to the sky.

But I don't want to be too negative as they said texting anywhere you can see the stars will save someone's life.  And save many hours of worrying if someone is ok as they are doing something out of normal cell service.

[iansltx]

11 minutes ago, Flompholph said:

Limited to 2-4 Mbps per cell which I think are the size of Louisiana. Should be only good enough for texts and a phone call here and there. But used as a last resort network it may keep dropped calls from dropping going in between sites if you have access to the sky.

There's no way they'll be able to do terrestrial-orbital handoff. They also mentioned 2 kbps for voice calls, which is a fraction of standard codecs. This'll be messaging plus the odd voice call only. Still better than nothing, particularly as T-Mobile pulls the rug out from under an increasing number of roaming agreements.

Was surprised backhaul basically wasn't part of this equation, but maybe that'll come later. That, or Starlink feels like they'll be capacity constrained for the foreseeable future.

Guessing this'll be 1.4x1.4 at the top of PCS-G, as B25 LTE, but we shall see.

[Flompholph]

Not sure why a handoff could not happen it should be like hoping from tower to tower or wifi call to cellular network. Your phone should not care about the difference.  But I guess time will tell we should be a 1 year away for voice calls anyways as they haven't launched starship yet. Calls would probably not be added until they have over thousand gen 2 satellites. 

The 2 kbps came from musk he may have been commenting on a congested satellite to get a max number of callers per cell. I do agree that the number of calls carried will be small compared to a cell site.

[dkyeager]

In favor.  The key item to make this work is to quickly provide ground based cell service in any area that becomes congested. Your phone will also need to see what I imagine is a very weak signal, which may be of very limited duration if you are not near the top of a mountain (in a canyon, steep valley, or holler).  Could also lead to riskier behavior.

[radem]

10 hours ago, iansltx said:

There's no way they'll be able to do terrestrial-orbital handoff. They also mentioned 2 kbps for voice calls, which is a fraction of standard codecs. This'll be messaging plus the odd voice call only. Still better than nothing, particularly as T-Mobile pulls the rug out from under an increasing number of roaming agreements.

Was surprised backhaul basically wasn't part of this equation, but maybe that'll come later. That, or Starlink feels like they'll be capacity constrained for the foreseeable future.

Guessing this'll be 1.4x1.4 at the top of PCS-G, as B25 LTE, but we shall see.

I see this as extremely useful for very remote areas such as Alaska, the middle of the desert, the middle of the ocean etc. where you can count the number of people in a cell on one hand.   A Starlink v1 satellite data cell is a hexagon of 15 miles across so it really isn't that large. 

This will also be a hugely important messaging backup for natural disasters.  They said it can use that entire bandwidth simultaneously for messaging even in heavily populated areas when the ground networks are down.

[the_intern]

3 hours ago, radem said:

I see this as extremely useful for very remote areas such as Alaska, the middle of the desert, the middle of the ocean etc. where you can count the number of people in a cell on one hand.   A Starlink v1 satellite data cell is a hexagon of 15 miles across so it really isn't that large. 

This will also be a hugely important messaging backup for natural disasters.  They said it can use that entire bandwidth simultaneously for messaging even in heavily populated areas when the ground networks are down.

 

I agree that bandwidth will be extremely constrained, even for SMS, when larger portions of the terrestrial network goes down after a natural disaster. But I do think that this will actually work fine in areas without native or roaming terrestrial coverage. Take places like Parashant National Monument in Arizona, Uinta or Ashley National Forest in Utah, or Lolo National Forest in Montana. These are places with very few people and it's not like every T-Mobile customer hiking or camping will be trying to make a phone call at the same time. 

If the terrestrial T-Mobile network in urban, suburban and most rural areas that are conducive to cell site build is designed and built right, it should provide a usable enough experience for those in edge cases outside any terrestrial coverage. I'm very excited for this! 

[clbowens]

On 8/25/2022 at 12:22 PM, schmidtj said:

Frome here: https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/24/23320133/spacex-starlink-t-mobile-connectivity-5g-satellite-elon-musk

This: Perhaps it’s a spectrum announcement of some kind? A partnership to strengthen both Starlink’s sometimes-overloaded satellite internet connections in rural areas and T-Mobile’s home internet product that doesn’t have quite enough coverage? A SpaceX deal for T-Mobile subscribers?

Does anyone know if this will be LTE or 5G?

[schmidtj]

The presentation said "most" devices currently in service will work so it's not tied to 5G. I'll defer to the experts for the real answer.

edit: I found this https://www.rcrwireless.com/20220826/network-infrastructure/t-mobile-us-starlink-announce-spectrum-sharing-deal

which says Starlink V2 will be 5G. Also specifically says it will work with 5G phones. 

[dkyeager]

The key items from the presentation are, Sievert: "mid-band PCS", likely covered for free by our most popular plans, will take new satellites, T-Mobile is offering reciprocal roaming with carriers in other countries [using this].  Open to backhaul transport with SpaceX.  Will use select messaging apps to separate from all other data.  Will start with messaging next year.  Will be realtime service when we hit commercial service.  This PCS spectrum is nationwide.  The phone will scan for cell towers, then roaming, then satellite.

Musk: the phone you currently have will work. 5 or 6 meter long antennas on a side, roughly 25 square meters. Hardest technical issue: should work with even when we have a few satellites, may have to wait  30 minutes maybe. 2-4Mbps download for entire cell.  Several thousand cell calls or millions of messages.  Size of the cell will be quite large.  It will back up tower service in the case of disasters. Signal is adjusted by satellite for doppler effect.  Would love to have T-Mobile on Mars.

 

These details back my and others early morning thought that the frequency will be band 25 g block. In terms of phones, carriers have historically seen things in terms of the phones they are selling at that time.

[dkyeager]

Other trade news coverage of  T-Mobile - SpaceX deal:

https://www.rcrwireless.com/20220826/network-infrastructure/t-mobile-us-starlink-announce-spectrum-sharing-deal

https://www.fiercewireless.com/wireless/t-mobile-spacex-promise-end-dead-zones-cell-phones-connected-satellites

https://www.lightreading.com/satellite/t-mobile-and-spacex-want-to-connect-regular-phones-to-satellites/d/d-id/779964?

https://www.lightreading.com/satellite/did-elon-musk-just-upstage-tim-cooks-big-iphone-14-surprise/a/d-id/779976?

 

[clbowens]

On 8/25/2022 at 12:22 PM, schmidtj said:

Frome here: https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/24/23320133/spacex-starlink-t-mobile-connectivity-5g-satellite-elon-musk

This: Perhaps it’s a spectrum announcement of some kind? A partnership to strengthen both Starlink’s sometimes-overloaded satellite internet connections in rural areas and T-Mobile’s home internet product that doesn’t have quite enough coverage? A SpaceX deal for T-Mobile subscribers?

Also with this deal, do you think T-Mobile will let any carriers roam onto this new satellite band?

[schmidtj]

10 minutes ago, clbowens said:

Also with this deal, do you think T-Mobile will let any carriers roam onto this new satellite band?

It was addressed in the video presentation and it’s open to any provider that’s willing to negotiate reciprocal roaming agreements.

[Paynefanbro]

T‑Mobile Customers Get Apple TV+ On Us with Magenta MAX

https://www.t-mobile.com/news/un-carrier/magenta-max-apple-tv

[RedSpark]

6 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

T‑Mobile Customers Get Apple TV+ On Us with Magenta MAX

https://www.t-mobile.com/news/un-carrier/magenta-max-apple-tv

Coming to Sprint Max?

[RedSpark]

Now that is pretty cool: 

 

[RedSpark]

On 8/29/2022 at 8:35 PM, RedSpark said:

Coming to Sprint Max?

Got a Text for it today on my Sprint Max Plan main line.

Update: I think they may have messed this up for the Sprint Max Plan people. When I click the link in the Text, it takes me to a "Change Plan" screen. I don't want to change my Plan. When I go to "Change Services" on my account, I also don't see Apple TV+ Listed as a service that I can add. Anyone else experiencing this?

Edited August 31, 2022 by RedSpark
Added info

[dkyeager]

https://www.fiercewireless.com/wireless/t-mobile-lays-some-network-engineers-week

Feel sorry for these guys, but unfortunately predictable.  It would be nice if companies were more professional in how these matters are approached.

Perhaps some will want to guide us in understanding wireless networking better.

[jreuschl]

https://www.lightreading.com/5g/it-looks-like-verizon-accidentally-bought-$15m-worth-of-25ghz-spectrum/d/d-id/780140

Verizon accidently owns 15M of 2.5GHz spectrum.  Some of it in a co outside Milwaukee that I live in.

[Paynefanbro]

3 hours ago, jreuschl said:

https://www.lightreading.com/5g/it-looks-like-verizon-accidentally-bought-$15m-worth-of-25ghz-spectrum/d/d-id/780140

Verizon accidently owns 15M of 2.5GHz spectrum.  Some of it in a co outside Milwaukee that I live in.

It’s only $1.5 Million worth. They’re likely gonna sell or lease all of it back to T-Mobile. The only exception is the Fairbanks license which is probably gonna go to some Alaskan carrier like GCI.

They screwed up thinking that they could bid up the cost of spectrum for T-Mobile. They didn’t bet on T-Mobile just walking away if they felt they were overpaying for it. I’m certain that the second they realized that they were actually winning some of the licenses they stopped bidding altogether because it was virtually useless for them in comparison to T-Mobile. 

[iansltx]

Would be entertaining if T-Mobile came to Verizon in those areas and offers to pay what they originally bid, maybe less, for a 30-year lease of that spectrum, since VZW isn't going to bother building any of it out.