Official Tmobile-Sprint merger discussion thread

[RAvirani]

2 hours ago, dkyeager said:

10x10 is required for 5G.  I have been told that the plan with the Nextel purchase was to have at least 10x10 band 26, then 9/11 changed that when it became a national security issue to have first responders on the same frequency.  So Sprint got less LTE 800 in the end (this took a few years).  The consolation prize for Sprint was the 1900 G Block to fix the "interference" issues:  https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-04-168A1.pdf

Yes. I wish Sprint had been able to keep all of the 800 spectrum they were supposed to acquire with the Nextel takeover.

They also acquired a 3x3 900 MHz license in the Nextel takeover which they sold off. If they had kept that for CDMA services, we would probably see CDMA completely decommissioned on 1900 today as they could run 1x800, 1x900 and EVDO900.

It would be interesting if Sprint were able to buy spectrum below 817 MHz. SoLINC, for example, owns spectrum between 813 MHz and 817 MHz, if I remember correctly. If Sprint were able to acquire 4 MHz of spectrum below their current holdings, that would allow them to expand L800 to a 10x10 carrier. 

[S4GRU]

11 hours ago, BlueAngel said:

If the merger doesn't happen I'm switching right away, to whom I don't know yet. Will probably just bite the bullet and go Verizon and be done with it.

If it doesn't go through, I will switch back to Sprint.  I was just about to come back when the merger was announced.  Didn't think it is worth switching back to Sprint if I will just be brought back in T-Mobile anyway.

Robert

[S4GRU]

2 hours ago, NYC126 said:

So Claure is now crying that Sprint doesn't have low band spectrum to compete..... Well wasn't this the guy alone with his former CFO that said during many conferences earning calls that low band is the spectrum of the past. Sprint/Softbank colluded with Tmobile to allow them to buy most of the 600mhz band while they sat out. 

Crying?  That seems far fetched.  He got called out about the financial necessity to merge now with Sprint improving in the numbers.  He had to use something to justify and just grabbed low spectrum as an explanation.  He had to say something.  I wouldn't describe it as crying.  Also, do you have a source for Sprint colluding with T-Mobile?  That would be illegal if coordinated.

Robert

[RedSpark]

3 hours ago, NYC126 said:

So Claure is now crying that Sprint doesn't have low band spectrum to compete..... Well wasn't this the guy alone with his former CFO that said during many conferences earning calls that low band is the spectrum of the past. Sprint/Softbank colluded with Tmobile to allow them to buy most of the 600mhz band while they sat out. 

Yup: https://www.fiercewireless.com/wireless/sprint-cfo-robbiati-600-mhz-spectrum-past

Sprint pushed for a larger Spectrum Reserve in the 600 MHz Auction, alongside T-Mobile/Dish: https://www.fiercewireless.com/wireless/t-mobile-sprint-and-dish-push-for-40-mhz-spectrum-reserve-600-mhz-auction

As far as collusion goes, I have my suspicions there was, and I do believe Sprint’s ensuring a reserve and then bowing out of the auction was a long risky play for a T-Mobile Merger.

[utiz4321]

On 2/11/2019 at 1:49 PM, S4GRU said:

There will have to be sufficient grounds and California law to be able to deny it and let it stand (or any state for that matter).  California has courts too.  And something like this would be unprecedented and could end up in the Supreme Court pushing the bounds of the 10th Amendment.

Robert

I think Califonia challenging the merger would fail. The Constitution is very clear that the Federal government has  Primacy with interstate commerce.  I think it is rather obvisious that both Sprint and Tmobile fall under that category. 

[red_dog007]

On 2/14/2019 at 10:19 PM, dkyeager said:

10x10 is required for 5G.

Where have you read that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5G_NR_frequency_bands

This page says 5MHz is limited to only having 15kHz SCS.

http://www.sharetechnote.com/html/5G/5G_FR_Bandwidth.html#38_101_1_Table_5_3_5_1

[Brad The Beast]

22 hours ago, red_dog007 said:

This page says 5MHz is limited to only having 15kHz SCS.

http://www.sharetechnote.com/html/5G/5G_FR_Bandwidth.html#38_101_1_Table_5_3_5_1

What does that mean?

[red_dog007]

23 minutes ago, Brad The Beast said:

What does that mean?

Google has a lot but it can get very technical.  This has a short snippet on it but has some graphs to go with it. https://medium.com/5g-nr/5g-nr-the-new-radio-interface-for-5g-2b769a59ea80

SCS is subcarrier spacing in OFDM.  

The TLDR: say you have 10x10 LTE carrier, but it is made up of many subscarriers that are of a certain specific sizes. The SCS, say 15kHz, is how far apart the spacing is between these subcarriers are.   

Edited February 18, 2019 by red_dog007

[dkyeager]

On 2/16/2019 at 9:52 PM, red_dog007 said:

Where have you read that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5G_NR_frequency_bands

This page says 5MHz is limited to only having 15kHz SCS.

http://www.sharetechnote.com/html/5G/5G_FR_Bandwidth.html#38_101_1_Table_5_3_5_1

My info came from a trusted S4Gru source.  It may have gotten garbed somewhere along the way since Band 26 list not listed in any of the related 5G tables.  I believe larger SCS directly improves transmission rates in Mbps, iirc.

I really liked another link you just posted about fine grain TDD.  Hopefully this is used by Sprint in the initial 5G NR  implementations as it might fix the band 41 upload issues some people have even moreso that having a 60MHz to 100Mhz carrier.  https://medium.com/5g-nr/5g-nr-the-new-radio-interface-for-5g-2b769a59ea80

[red_dog007]

18 hours ago, dkyeager said:

My info came from a trusted S4Gru source.  It may have gotten garbed somewhere along the way since Band 26 list not listed in any of the related 5G tables.  I believe larger SCS directly improves transmission rates in Mbps, iirc.

I really liked another link you just posted about fine grain TDD.  Hopefully this is used by Sprint in the initial 5G NR  implementations as it might fix the band 41 upload issues some people have even moreso that having a 60MHz to 100Mhz carrier.  https://medium.com/5g-nr/5g-nr-the-new-radio-interface-for-5g-2b769a59ea80

Though, B5 is on the list, and for 5MHz sizes. Makes me think some technical or formal limitation to have a 5G ESMR band. 

It wasn't until 2012 that 3G and LTE utilization were approved by the FCC for ESMR between 813.5-824/858.5- 869 MHz.  With there being no 5G n26 band, Sprint and others might need to formally request for 5G utilization in that spectrum space. 

https://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2012/db0524/FCC-12-55A1.pdf

But the FCC report does stat "Licensees will therefore be able to transition networks deployed using EA-based 800 MHz SMR licenses from legacy narrowband technologies to 3G as well as other advanced technologies including LTE, in order to better compete in the commercial wireless marketplace."

So it sounds like 5G would be covered, but maybe better to formally request before a band is made for ESMR?

[RAvirani]

2 hours ago, red_dog007 said:

Though, B5 is on the list, and for 5MHz sizes. Makes me think some technical or formal limitation to have a 5G ESMR band. 

It wasn't until 2012 that 3G and LTE utilization were approved by the FCC for ESMR between 813.5-824/858.5- 869 MHz.  With there being no 5G n26 band, Sprint and others might need to formally request for 5G utilization in that spectrum space. 

https://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2012/db0524/FCC-12-55A1.pdf

But the FCC report does stat "Licensees will therefore be able to transition networks deployed using EA-based 800 MHz SMR licenses from legacy narrowband technologies to 3G as well as other advanced technologies including LTE, in order to better compete in the commercial wireless marketplace."

So it sounds like 5G would be covered, but maybe better to formally request before a band is made for ESMR?

I'm not sure why Sprint didn't push for B2/5 to be scrapped in favor of B25/26 in the move to NR. B4 was scrapped in favor of B66...

[RedSpark]

Marcelo laid it on pretty thick: https://www.kcur.org/post/clouds-gathering-over-sprint-t-mobile-deal-opposition-gets-louder#stream/0

......

"It's impossible to compete," Claure said.  

He painted a bleak picture of Sprint if the merger fails to go through, saying it won't be able to offer service to rural customers and will only build a limited 5G (next generation) network.

"Unfortunately, as you know, Sprint doesn't generate any cash flow," Claure said. "And if we gotta build this network on our own, we need to spend between $20 billion and $25 billion. We're going to have to go to the banks, we’re going to have to go to the bond markets."

....

He’s painting a grim picture, but $20-25 Billion from the Banks/Bond Markets seems doable given SoftBank’s ownership. I’m not getting the fear factor here.

Why SoftBank/Marcelo had Sprint completely pass on the 600 MHz auction to leave it all for T-Mobile is beyond me, especially since one of major justifications Marcelo is making for the merger is that Sprint lacks nationwide low-band spectrum.

As I imagine it, Sprint’s $20-25 Billion figure would be less if it had the deployment efficiencies of 600 MHz spectrum.

T-Mobile spent $7.99 Billion on 600 MHz: https://www.t-mobile.com/news/tmobile-spectrum-auction-win

Sprint could have afforded this, or ar least fraction of it for a nationwide footprint. Now we’re hearing $20-25 Billion.

Sprint boxed itself into deploying 2.5 GHz nationwide, which is much more costly, or merging with T-Mobile.... and it chose merging.

[Thomas L.]

37 minutes ago, RedSpark said:

Marcelo laid it on pretty thick: https://www.kcur.org/post/clouds-gathering-over-sprint-t-mobile-deal-opposition-gets-louder#stream/0

......

"It's impossible to compete," Claure said.  

He painted a bleak picture of Sprint if the merger fails to go through, saying it won't be able to offer service to rural customers and will only build a limited 5G (next generation) network.

"Unfortunately, as you know, Sprint doesn't generate any cash flow," Claure said. "And if we gotta build this network on our own, we need to spend between $20 billion and $25 billion. We're going to have to go to the banks, we’re going to have to go to the bond markets."

....

He’s painting a grim picture, but $20-25 Billion from the Banks/Bond Markets seems doable given SoftBank’s ownership. I’m not getting the fear factor here.

Why SoftBank/Marcelo had Sprint completely pass on the 600 MHz auction to leave it all for T-Mobile is beyond me, especially since one of major justifications Marcelo is making for the merger is that Sprint lacks nationwide low-band spectrum.

As I imagine it, Sprint’s $20-25 Billion figure would be less if it had the deployment efficiencies of 600 MHz spectrum.

T-Mobile spent $7.99 Billion on 600 MHz: https://www.t-mobile.com/news/tmobile-spectrum-auction-win

Sprint could have afforded this, or ar least fraction of it for a nationwide footprint. Now we’re hearing $20-25 Billion.

Sprint boxed itself into deploying 2.5 GHz nationwide, which is much more costly, or merging with T-Mobile.... and it chose merging.

The reality is they put themselves in a situation that would require them to merge because that was what they wanted to do, and they hoped to make that argument to regulators. Again, Softbank didn't want them to exist solo, they bought Sprint with the intention of merging. They're not making business decisions that are best for them as a solo company. 

[kct1975]

This is an interesting article...

In The T-Mobile And Sprint Merger, Bet On Magenta

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4242077-t-mobile-sprint-merger-bet-magenta

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[dkyeager]

I see the T-Mobile - Sprint merger mirroring the Shentel-nTelos merger in many ways, except bigger.  Their merger was announced August 10, 2015, approved by the FCC on April 15, 2016, which then closed on May 9th 2016.  Especially when you add in the government shutdown (35 days plus time to figure out where you were again), we are still on a reasonable timeframe.

[RedSpark]

19 hours ago, Thomas L. said:

The reality is they put themselves in a situation that would require them to merge because that was what they wanted to do, and they hoped to make that argument to regulators. Again, Softbank didn't want them to exist solo, they bought Sprint with the intention of merging. They're not making business decisions that are best for them as a solo company. 

So if this merger fails to go through, SoftBank is in a real fix. In its effort to merge with T-Mobile, Masa wound up having to relinquish Sprint being the majority owner of the combined entity... and now it's facing the reality of spending much more than it would have had to spend on deploying 5G nationwide than if it had some 600 MHz spectrum to help with it.

Edited February 20, 2019 by RedSpark
Grammar

[dro1984]

...so nothing changes with this company... one bad decision after another.      Merged with Nextel, (poorly executed and full of mistakes)...gets 800 and 900 mHz which it can't use and has to give back/sell 900 and then reband the entire public safety network in the country in order to use the 800 it has ...  has to write the entire Nextel thing off the books years later...  then it chooses the wrong 4G (Wimax) when within a few weeks, others including AT&T and Verizon and everyone else chose LTE.   They never really deploy Wi-Max except to a few small chosen spots and never very dense just to appease the FCC for it's claim to 2500 mHz.     Then it stops updating it's network until they have to fix it and decide on a "Rip - and Replace" which just about kills service to many long time users, me included for a long period... Then Son comes along and decides to buy the majority of the company so he can merge it, not realizing it has to be approved by the US government.     It was a real eye opener, and a sad state of affairs... but  especially when in the 2G and 3G days, Sprint was a leader and a disruptor!   They had good phones... I had a Samsung "Blade" a full metal version of the Moto Razr... great phone!    Sprint had some of the first color screen phones (Sanyo), the Motorola Razr (I believe AT&T was allowed to carry Razr's first)...       They (Sprint) were the carrier to be with back in the day.      I miss those days... I'm hoping T Mobile can do what Sprint used to do better.      

Edited February 20, 2019 by dro1984
fix grammar

[joshnys8913]

3 hours ago, dro1984 said:

...so nothing changes with this company... one bad decision after another.      Merged with Nextel, (poorly executed and full of mistakes)...gets 800 and 900 mHz which it can't use and has to give back/sell 900 and then reband the entire public safety network in the country in order to use the 800 it has ...  has to write the entire Nextel thing off the books years later...  then it chooses the wrong 4G (Wimax) when within a few weeks, others including AT&T and Verizon and everyone else chose LTE.   They never really deploy Wi-Max except to a few small chosen spots and never very dense just to appease the FCC for it's claim to 2500 mHz.     Then it stops updating it's network until they have to fix it and decide on a "Rip - and Replace" which just about kills service to many long time users, me included for a long period... Then Son comes along and decides to buy the majority of the company so he can merge it, not realizing it has to be approved by the US government.     It was a real eye opener, and a sad state of affairs... but  especially when in the 2G and 3G days, Sprint was a leader and a disruptor!   They had good phones... I had a Samsung "Blade" a full metal version of the Moto Razr... great phone!    Sprint had some of the first color screen phones (Sanyo), the Motorola Razr (I believe AT&T was allowed to carry Razr's first)...       They (Sprint) were the carrier to be with back in the day.      I miss those days... I'm hoping T Mobile can do what Sprint used to do better.      

Sprint wanted NEXTEL for the lower frequencies I am sure and probably back in 2005 the FCC probably did not have any lower frequencies available to auction off thus it was easier for Sprint to acquire. (This is just a guess). With the WiMAX in the last T-mobile/Sprint hearing (February 13, 2019); Marcelo Claure admitted that "WiMax was the wrong technology". 

[kct1975]

So if this merger fails to go through, SoftBank is in a real fix. In its effort to merge with T-Mobile, Masa wound up having to relinquish Sprint being the majority owner of the combined entity... and now it's facing the reality of spending much more than it would have had to spend on deploying 5G nationwide than if it had some 600 MHz spectrum to help with it.

Personally I agree with what has been said before on this site...

If the T-Mobile & Sprint Merger does not get approved by the Federal Gov't then Sprint will eventually go out of business within the next 5 years and will be sold off in parts to the other Wireless Carriers (Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile) and some of the spectrum most likely will be sold off to Direct TV and Dish Network.

Another possibility would be that Sprint would be sold off in parts to cable companies like Comcast and Cox Cable.


Either way, if the Sprint & T-Mobile Merger does not get approved, then Sprint will most likely be gone soon.

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[dro1984]

1 hour ago, joshnys8913 said:

Sprint wanted NEXTEL for the lower frequencies I am sure and probably back in 2005 the FCC probably did not have any lower frequencies available to auction off thus it was easier for Sprint to acquire. (This is just a guess). With the WiMAX in the last T-mobile/Sprint hearing (February 13, 2019); Marcelo Claure admitted that "WiMax was the wrong technology". 

Sprint wanted Nextel for all the 2.5G they had... (alot of it).     Clearwire didn't come into the picture until Sprint spun the 2.5G off to them... only later to reacquire it when Softbank came into the picture (2013).   (what a mess).    Then you have the low band 800/900.    900 goes bye-bye, and it takes nearly 10 years... no wait... Sprint and Nextel tied the knot on August 12th 2005... It takes 13+ years to get 800 everywhere (and it's still not done due to all the rebanding and $$$ spent)...   Not a great business plan.       I just don't think Sprint can survive on it's own anymore.   Softbank is only a silent owner now, waiting to unload it's misfortune.   

Edited February 20, 2019 by dro1984

[Rawvega]

32 minutes ago, kct1975 said:

Personally I agree with what has been said before on this site...

If the T-Mobile & Sprint Merger does not get approved by the Federal Gov't then Sprint will eventually go out of business within the next 5 years and will be sold off in parts to the other Wireless Carriers (Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile) and some of the spectrum most likely will be sold off to Direct TV and Dish Network.

FWIW, DirecTV is already wholly owned by AT&T.

[RedSpark]

18 minutes ago, kct1975 said:

Personally I agree with what has been said before on this site...

If the T-Mobile & Sprint Merger does not get approved by the Federal Gov't then Sprint will eventually go out of business within the next 5 years and will be sold off in parts to the other Wireless Carriers (Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile) and some of the spectrum most likely will be sold off to Direct TV and Dish Network.

Another possibility would be that Sprint would be sold off in parts to cable companies like Comcast and Cox Cable.


Either way, if the Sprint & T-Mobile Merger does not get approved, then Sprint will most likely be gone soon.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk
 

I don't know if Sprint will go out of business, but without a substantial cash/capital infusion from Banks/Bonds/SoftBank, it seems Sprint will be relegated to being an Urban 5G Carrier with essentially the same 4G footprint it has now (subject to roaming agreements) unless any of those native coverage expansion projects are still happening. (Are they?)

Personally, I don't support the merger because I want to preserve competition in the postpaid carrier space, and I believe having only three carriers with a combined Sprint/T-Mobile is insufficient for doing that.

Of course, Sprint's decision to not participate in the 600 MHz auction has put it in the position of trying to deploy 2.5 GHz nationwide economically, which sounds eerily similar to what Sprint has said about its competitors' deployments of MMwave: https://www.lightreading.com/mobile/5g/sprint-says-no-to-mmwave-yes-to-mobile-5g/d/d-id/739592

Sprint's CTO said Wednesday that he is not sure that using millimeter waves to deliver 5G services is a practical economic use of the high-band spectrum and that Sprint will be focusing on using its existing bandwidth to deploy 5G, at least initially.

"What is the cost to deliver a bit over millimeter waves? Where is the business case on that?" John Saw asked at the Citi conference in Las Vegas.

[kct1975]

FWIW, DirecTV is already wholly owned by AT&T.

Sorry [emoji120] I forgot about that!

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[dro1984]

2 hours ago, joshnys8913 said:

Sprint wanted NEXTEL for the lower frequencies I am sure and probably back in 2005 the FCC probably did not have any lower frequencies available to auction off thus it was easier for Sprint to acquire. (This is just a guess). With the WiMAX in the last T-mobile/Sprint hearing (February 13, 2019); Marcelo Claure admitted that "WiMax was the wrong technology". 

By the way Josh... the FCC did have low frequencies available just a couple years later (2007/2008)...  700mHz,  I believe, the old VHF TV frequencies...  AT&T, Verizon, T Mobile and I think Dish got  them.    Sprint sat out on that one also.   Sprint has sat out on most all of the FCC auctions... I don't think they played in the AWS-1 and AWS-3 auctions either/ as they don't have any.     Does anyone remember?   

Edited February 20, 2019 by dro1984

[danlodish345]

By the way Josh... the FCC did have low frequencies available just a couple years later (2007/2008)...  700mHz,  I believe, the old VHF TV frequencies...  AT&T, Verizon, T Mobile and I think Dish got  them.    Sprint sat out on that one also.   Sprint has sat out on most all of the FCC auctions... I don't think they played in the AWS-1 and AWS-3 auctions either.     Does anyone remember?   

No they never played in the AWS auctions.

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