Official Tmobile-Sprint merger discussion thread

[radem]

24 minutes ago, schmidtj said:

So how does this whole direct to satellite thing fit in with the way it works now? Carriers spend billions for licenses for specific areas. So now T-Mobile can offer service direct to customers without having a Terrestrial license first?

Starlink (1900mhz) for T-Mobile, AST SpaceMobile (700mhz and 850mhz) for AT&T, GlobalStar (unknown frequency) for Apple, Iridium (unknown frequency) for Samsung, and AST SpaceMobile (850mhz) for Verizon only work on frequency bands the carrier has licensed nationwide.  These systems broadcast and listen on multiple frequencies at the same time in areas much wider than normal cellular market license areas.  They would struggle with only broadcasting certain frequencies only in certain markets so instead they require a nationwide license.  With the antennas that are included on the satellites, they have range of cellular band frequencies they support and can have different frequencies with different providers in each supported country.  The cellular bands in use are typically 5mhz x 5mhz bands (37.5mbps total for the entire cell) or smaller so they do not have a lot of data bandwidth for the satellite band covering a very large plot of land with potentially millions of customers in a single large cellular satellite cell.  I have heard that each of Starlink's cells sharing that bandwidth will cover 75 or more miles.

Satellite cellular connectivity will be set to the lowest priority connection just before SOS service on supported mobile devices and is made available nationwide in supported countries.  The mobile device rules pushed by the provider decide when and where the device is allowed to connect to the satellite service and what services can be provided over that connection.  The satellite has a weak receiving antenna and is moving very quickly so any significant obstructions above your mobile device antenna could cause it not to work.  All the cellular satellite services are starting with texting only and some of them like Apple's solution only support a predefined set of text messages.  Eventually it is expected that a limited number of simultaneous voice calls (VoLTE) will run on these per satellite cell.  Any spare data will then be available as an extremely slow LTE data connection as it could potentially be shared by millions of people.  Satellite data from the way these are currently configured will likely never work well enough to use unless you are in a very remote location.

[dkyeager]

19 hours ago, swintec said:

will this work for service in a plane?

My understanding is the MNO carriers are the one who have objected to the use of cell phones in commercial planes.  I understand that it ties down too many cell phones at once, thus I can not see this changing. However this depends on how it is structured. Use of a different plmn for satellite service might make it possible for planes only to connect with satellite.

Private pilots have been using cellphones in planes for many decades. Far fewer phones at a lower altitude.

Edited June 4 by dkyeager
plmn

[iansltx]

On 6/3/2024 at 11:02 AM, swintec said:

will this work for service in a plane?

Probably not, mainly because the signal would get attenuated too much by the fuselage thanks to being weak to begin with.

Using Starlink to the plane and WiFi on the plane works super well though, and AFAIK Starlink requires airlines using them to offer the service for free with no captive portal.

[swintec]

8 hours ago, iansltx said:

Probably not, mainly because the signal would get attenuated too much by the fuselage thanks to being weak to begin with.

that is what i thought but didnt know if being 35k+ feet closer would help in any way.

[RedSpark]

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/06/t-mobile-users-thought-they-had-a-lifetime-price-lock-guess-what-happened-next/

https://www.phonearena.com/news/t-mobile-customer-price-hike-fcc-complaint-spectacular-fail_id159270

[RedSpark]

Big news.

[radem]

14 minutes ago, RedSpark said:

Big news.

I just had a vision of the captain of a submarine on the surface of the ocean with the hatch open trying to get a Starlink T-Mobile satellite connection on his cell phone so he can text someone to let them know the radio is not working.

[dkyeager]

Still not seeing any ULS postings for pending T-Mobile UScellular merger in Dane county Wisconsin.

[schmidtj]

T-Mobile Will Soon Prevent Early Payoff Of Phones Receiving Bill Credits

If you finance a phone with T-Mobile it will remain locked until paid off but now you won't be able to pay off early.
If you don't currently purchase your phones from the manufacturer here is another reason it might be a good idea.

[PedroDaGr8]

4 hours ago, schmidtj said:

T-Mobile Will Soon Prevent Early Payoff Of Phones Receiving Bill Credits

If you finance a phone with T-Mobile it will remain locked until paid off but now you won't be able to pay off early.
If you don't currently purchase your phones from the manufacturer here is another reason it might be a good idea.

Their offers have been crap recently, so this is just more evidence to not buy from T-Mobile. 

[iansltx]

Austin has now narrowed B2 to 15x15 to support a second 10x10 n25 channel, this time entirely in PCS A-F. So T-Mobile now has 35x35 FD (n71 + n25) and 180 MHz TD (n41) NR live here, and LTE single carrier bandwidth now tops out at 15x15. LTE is down to 5x5 B12, 15x15 B2, 10x10+10x10+5x5 B66, so they now have 5 carriers each of LTE and NR, with 45x45 total LTE.

[Paynefanbro]

9 hours ago, iansltx said:

Austin has now narrowed B2 to 15x15 to support a second 10x10 n25 channel, this time entirely in PCS A-F. So T-Mobile now has 35x35 FD (n71 + n25) and 180 MHz TD (n41) NR live here, and LTE single carrier bandwidth now tops out at 15x15. LTE is down to 5x5 B12, 15x15 B2, 10x10+10x10+5x5 B66, so they now have 5 carriers each of LTE and NR, with 45x45 total LTE.

I’m surprised they’re running a 5x5 Band 66 carrier still. In NYC T-Mobile has 25x25 AWS and they’re running 20x20 Band 66 and 5x5 n66 (in testing). Presumably when n66 commercially launches they’ll drop Band 66 down to 15x15 and go straight for a 10x10 n66 carrier like they did with n25. 

[RedSpark]

On 6/19/2024 at 8:12 AM, schmidtj said:

T-Mobile Will Soon Prevent Early Payoff Of Phones Receiving Bill Credits

If you finance a phone with T-Mobile it will remain locked until paid off but now you won't be able to pay off early.
If you don't currently purchase your phones from the manufacturer here is another reason it might be a good idea.

Everything "Uncarrier" is becoming "Carrier" again.

Because of the Credit Limit that T-Mobile put on our account for no reason at all (and wouldn't change/update the last time I checked all the way up to the CEO), I don't plan on buying/upgrading our iPhones through T-Mobile. I'm going through Apple directly.

Looks like I'll be going through Google and Samsung directly for our other lines for upgrades.

Also, we're staying on Sprint Max given the ridiculous pricing for Go5G Plus.

On Sprint Max, we currently pay for our Plan:

$260 for 7 Voice Lines

$25 for two Wearable Lines. (One is $10/Month. The other is $15/Month because the AutoPay discount only applies up to 8 lines.)

Total: $285/Month

vs.

Go5G Plus (Per the Broadband Facts "nutrition label" on the T-Mobile Website):

https://www.t-mobile.com/commerce/cell-phone-plans

$360 - ($5 AutoPay Discount x 7 Voice Lines) = $325

The Watch Plans show as either $12/Month or $15/Month:

https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone-plans/affordable-data-plans/smartwatches

So this is about the same for the wearables as what we're paying now.

Overall, it's quite more than we're paying now to switch plans. Ridiculous....

[dkyeager]

19 hours ago, RedSpark said:

Everything "Uncarrier" is becoming "Carrier" again.

Because of the Credit Limit that T-Mobile put on our account for no reason at all (and wouldn't change/update the last time I checked all the way up to the CEO), I don't plan on buying/upgrading our iPhones through T-Mobile. I'm going through Apple directly.

Looks like I'll be going through Google and Samsung directly for our other lines for upgrades.

Also, we're staying on Sprint Max given the ridiculous pricing for Go5G Plus.

On Sprint Max, we currently pay for our Plan:

$260 for 7 Voice Lines

$25 for two Wearable Lines. (One is $10/Month. The other is $15/Month because the AutoPay discount only applies up to 8 lines.)

Total: $285/Month

vs.

Go5G Plus (Per the Broadband Facts "nutrition label" on the T-Mobile Website):

https://www.t-mobile.com/commerce/cell-phone-plans

$360 - ($5 AutoPay Discount x 7 Voice Lines) = $325

The Watch Plans show as either $12/Month or $15/Month:

https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone-plans/affordable-data-plans/smartwatches

So this is about the same for the wearables as what we're paying now.

Overall, it's quite more than we're paying now to switch plans. Ridiculous....

Strange business model that they keep around all these pricing plans. 1000s of plans per carrier is reportedly not uncommon.  Training customer support must be a nightmare. Even MVNOs have legacy plans. A downside of their contract mentality I guess.

Best to change contracts during a recession. But then all carriers try to squeeze out legacy plan benefits as they grow old.

 

[RedSpark]

7 hours ago, dkyeager said:

Strange business model that they keep around all these pricing plans. 1000s of plans per carrier is reportedly not uncommon.  Training customer support must be a nightmare. Even MVNOs have legacy plans. A downside of their contract mentality I guess.

Best to change contracts during a recession. But then all carriers try to squeeze out legacy plan benefits as they grow old.

 

Yup. Very true.

We were originally on an Everything Data 1500 Plan, which got Unlimited Minutes thanks to Marcelo's "Loyalty Benefits" offer. We then switched to Unlimited Freedom (with the Free HD add-on that Sprint originally wanted $20/month per line for.... remember that?) because the pricing was better with "iPhone for Life", vs. the "Loyalty Credit" for staying on a Legacy Plan. After that, I ran the numbers and switched us over to Sprint MAX, especially for the international travel benefits.

There's absolutely no reason for us to switch to Go5G Plus or Go5G Next if we're going to do BYOD by purchasing from Apple/Samsung/Google directly as we've been doing.

These new plans aren't priced for current customers to switch to. They're priced for new customers, where they throw in a free line, etc. It's gone from "Uncarrier" to "Carrier". What a shame.

[schmidtj]

5G in the U.S. – Additional Mid-band Spectrum Driving Performance Gains

T-Mobile holds on to it's lead in 5G Speed

[Paynefanbro]

2 hours ago, schmidtj said:

5G in the U.S. – Additional Mid-band Spectrum Driving Performance Gains

T-Mobile holds on to it's lead in 5G Speed

Kind of amazing that T-Mobile is still holding onto that speed title despite Verizon all but killing off lowband 5G on their network. While Verizon is mostly being evaluated on mmWave and C-band performance, T-Mobile and AT&T's average 5G speeds include their massive lowband 5G networks that are significantly slower.

[dkyeager]

https://www.lightreading.com/6g/5g-advanced-arrives-with-3gpp-s-release-18

Wonder how long until T-Mobile moves on this? My guess is some by the Galaxy S25 in January or February.

[iansltx]

Looks like another T-Mobile 5G bump happened over the past week and a half, maybe less: n41 carriers are now 90+100 MHz, up from 80+100 (which in turn is up from 40+100 back in early March). This is on top of the new n25 carrier recently.

As part of this, it looks like T-Mobile is starting to prefer n25+n41 2CA even when pushing data, rather than having higher levels of CA that would hit higher peak speeds; at least indoors I need to force n41-only if I want to see the full 190 MHz there. To be fair the speeds are plenty quick with that amount of spectrum, and I'm sure they're load balancing, and my guess is this is a little better for battery life?

With this expansion, they're now at 10x10+10x10 n25, 15x15 n71, 100+90 n41, for a total of 260 MHz (including FD uplink) of deployed NR here, up from 250 MHz a week ago, 230 MHz two weeks ago, and 190 MHz six months ago. VZW is at 140 MHz minus mmW, 170 if you count n2 DSS. AT&T is at 150 MHz (80+40 n77, 15x15 n5), 210 MHz I think if you count n2 and n66 DSS (guessing they're still running those). With this level of spectrum they should be able to continue offering home internet wherever.

Guessing this is the last upgrade they can make before they need to throw new equipment on sites for C-Band. At this rate I figure that'll happen next year on a few dozen high-traffic sites.

[Trip]

I don't know enough about the nuts and bolts of NR to know the answer, but is there a reason they're not doing two overlapping 100 MHz n41 carriers and using selective resource shutoff to make each one 97 MHz?  Thus making use of the full 194 MHz instead of leaving 4 MHz unused as implied by the current standard 100+90 configuration?

- Trip

[chamb]

2 hours ago, iansltx said:

Looks like another T-Mobile 5G bump happened over the past week and a half, maybe less: n41 carriers are now 90+100 MHz, up from 80+100 (which in turn is up from 40+100 back in early March). This is on top of the new n25 carrier recently.As part of this, it looks like T-Mobile is starting to prefer n25+n41 2CA even when pushing data, rather than having higher levels of CA that would hit higher peak speeds; at least indoors I need to force n41-only if I want to see the full 190 MHz there. To be fair the speeds are plenty quick with that amount of spectrum, and I'm sure they're load balanc

If they use n41 + n41 2CA, people that are somewhat distant from the cell site will have an OK download but the upload will be a disaster.  Upload capability on b-41 was always a disaster on the old Sprint Network.   Now, with n25 + n41 combination, even the more distant users have a more decent upload.  I see n41 + n41 + n25 now with my S22 and I understand that we will see 4xCA with newer phones in the future.     I also see n41 + n41 + n71 sometimes too. Also some other combinations of 25, 41, 71.  I would think that eventually we will see AWS paired with n41 too. 

What I am not sure of is ----  when I see 3xCA on my S22, I can see the 3 channels involved in the download but I am never sure just what I have on the upload. I do not think I have 3xCA on the upload.

[Dkoellerwx]

27 minutes ago, chamb said:

I understand that we will see 4xCA with newer phones in the future. 

S23 and S24 (at least ultra versions) have 4xCA NR. I currently have n41+n41+n25+n71 most places I go. 

28 minutes ago, chamb said:

I do not think I have 3xCA on the upload.

I think select devices have 2xCA upload but I do not think it is in widespread use yet. CA is still mostly download focused.

[dkyeager]

23 hours ago, iansltx said:

Looks like another T-Mobile 5G bump happened over the past week and a half, maybe less: n41 carriers are now 90+100 MHz, up from 80+100 (which in turn is up from 40+100 back in early March). This is on top of the new n25 carrier recently.

As part of this, it looks like T-Mobile is starting to prefer n25+n41 2CA even when pushing data, rather than having higher levels of CA that would hit higher peak speeds; at least indoors..

Saw that for a while. Now back to n25 + n71 + n41-100Mhz + n41-90Mhz.

[iansltx]

On 7/3/2024 at 1:15 PM, Trip said:

I don't know enough about the nuts and bolts of NR to know the answer, but is there a reason they're not doing two overlapping 100 MHz n41 carriers and using selective resource shutoff to make each one 97 MHz?  Thus making use of the full 194 MHz instead of leaving 4 MHz unused as implied by the current standard 100+90 configuration?

- Trip

Probably not worth the fiddling given that that's a few percent of the band.

Also, if they really wanted to push my assumption is there are still guard bands in play for the n41 carriers so they could fit two "100 MHz" carriers into 194 MHz anyway. Looks like minimum guard band is less than 1 MHz and a 100 MHz channel is only 273 30 KHz resource blocks, which is a bit over 80 MHz total, so if they really wanted to pull another 5% or so capacity out they could.