T-Mobile LTE & Network Discussion V2

[techfranz]

No problem. I remember them wanting to beat Verizon to the punch. I think the 1st market was Las Vegas or Boston.

 

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My point with my list of "Sprint Firsts" is that they are tenchnologically competent. They use cutting edge technology, rather than just following the market wherever it goes...another example, being Carrier Aggregation, they take the frequencies handed them by Nextel and Clearwire and make the best of it.

 

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[ndog21]

My point with my list of "Sprint Firsts" is that they are tenchnologically competent. They use cutting edge technology, rather than just following the market wherever it goes...another example, being Carrier Aggregation, they take the frequencies handed them by Nextel and Clearwire and make the best of it.

 

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The same could be said of T-Mobile. They starting building out fiber to their sites in 2008. No other carrier thought fiber was the future. Or preficted the data usage spike. Then AT&T started to get hit hard with iPhone users that killed their network. So they started deploying better backhaul in late 2009. Now it's paying off for T-Mobile. They deployed a lot of LTE extremely quickly. Now they still have a long way to go in co-locating on sites and getting sufficient backhaul. I hope they hit 300 Million pops by EOY. Their newer LTE equipment also helped them be the 1st carrier to launch VoLTE nationwide. T-Mobile's smart decisions in past years has helped them make such a quick turn around. Sprint has been innovative, but made bad business decisions in past years like WiMax and how they dealt with the Nextel merger. I'm not sure if it was Hesse or the board. I would bet it was the board, because of bad decisions before and after Hesse. Hopefully Softbank, Mr. Son, and Marcelo can make better decisions and take the rest of the board with a grain of salt. Sprint can be successful in the future, but it will take time to fix problems from the past.

 

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[techfranz]

Back-haul...the unsung Wireless hero.....

Anyone know what type of connection is needed for a Macro site..

If Cable or Fiber is available in the area are a couple Residential Style connection good enough?

Or are we talking about dedicated commercial pipes?

 

Also, how far can Microwave go....how many towers could you daisy chain together with Microwave backhaul.

 

Keep seeing Microwave dishes attached to Towers in odd spots...as if to provide backhaul as an afterthought.

 

Anyway, i thought of another "Sprint First"...Digital Call Routing technology rather than Circuit Switched calls like the other carriers had.

[Paynefanbro]

http://www.cnet.com/news/metropcs-launches-first-4g-lte-market-and-phone/

 

I stand corrected. Kudos for remembering correctly sir.

 

 

No problem. I remember them wanting to beat Verizon to the punch. I think the 1st market was Las Vegas or Boston.

 

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Yep. It was evident in that their network was a mess. They deployed 1x throughout NYC, then they started EVDO but never finished and went straight for LTE. They went all in with DAS and such but it meant that when you dropped LTE, you almost always ended up on 1x which was a messy experience to say the least.

[ndog21]

Yep. It was evident in that their network was a mess. They deployed 1x throughout NYC, then they started EVDO but never finished and went straight for LTE. They went all in with DAS and such but it meant that when you dropped LTE, you almost always ended up on 1x which was a messy experience to say the least.

Wow. In LA they fully deployed EV-DO, so it wasn't as painful dropping off of LTE. Network Vision made EV-DO is ok, but they need to be more dense here, and need to deploy band 26 badly. T-Mobile is extremely dense, fast, and their low band (band 12) fixes their coverage gaps in certain buildings I go in.

 

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[anthony.spina97]

Wow. In LA they fully deployed EV-DO, so it wasn't as painful dropping off of LTE. Network Vision made EV-DO is ok, but they need to be more dense here, and need to deploy band 26 badly. T-Mobile is extremely dense, fast, and their low band (band 12) fixes their coverage gaps in certain buildings I go in.

 

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I believe he was referring to MetroPCS in NYC, not Sprint.

 

-Anthony

[ndog21]

I believe he was referring to MetroPCS in NYC, not Sprint.

 

-Anthony

Ok, that makes more sense.

 

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[techfranz]

Ok, that makes more sense.

 

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I believe he was referring to MetroPCS in NYC, not Sprint.

 

-Anthony

Actually, I thought we were talking about Verizon dropping VolTE calls when you lost LTE signal...oh well it's all good.

[ndog21]

 

 

Back-haul...the unsung Wireless hero.....

Anyone know what type of connection is needed for a Macro site..

If Cable or Fiber is available in the area are a couple Residential Style connection good enough?

Or are we talking about dedicated commercial pipes?

 

Also, how far can Microwave go....how many towers could you daisy chain together with Microwave backhaul.

 

Keep seeing Microwave dishes attached to Towers in odd spots...as if to provide backhaul as an afterthought.

 

Anyway, i thought of another "Sprint First"...Digital Call Routing technology rather than Circuit Switched calls like the other carriers had.

Carriers perfer Fiber then microwave then copper for backhaul. Microwave requires line of site. Fiber and microwave are converted to Ethernet. I'm not sure if they do that with copper. I'm not sure how long it goes. Don't the other 3 still use switches? Except for maybe VoLTE calls. That should be digitally through iP.

 

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[payturr]

Somewhere I read that Sprints 1xrtt was superior to Verizon's in that it allowed VolTE handoffs. Verizon just drops the call when you leave LTE. I am trying to find the post. It was either 1xrtt or eHRPD that the Sprint version of VolTE can hand off to. But I guess Sprints HD Voice is not true VolTE either...

 

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Let's be clear about a few things

 

1) HD Voice isn't VoLTE, it's just wideband audio codecs for voice calls. An HD Voice call system can be integrated into 1x, EDGE, HSPA+, and LTE.

2) Sprint's 1xRTT is superior only in the sense that 800MHz is deployed in a 1x Advanced system, which allows for greater capacity of voice traffic and more coverage.

3) 1xRTT on Sprint currently does not support VoLTE handoff, Sprint does not have VoLTE as of now, but it is in the pipeline. The plan is to make VoLTE handoff to 1x, and they're working on it, but it's no promises. The only prototype system ever establish has an 80% success rate or so, possibly lower than that.

 

Hope we're all clear about this!

[JosefTor]

Let's be clear about a few things

 

1) HD Voice isn't VoLTE, it's just wideband audio codecs for voice calls. An HD Voice call system can be integrated into 1x, EDGE, HSPA+, and LTE.

2) Sprint's 1xRTT is superior only in the sense that 800MHz is deployed in a 1x Advanced system, which allows for greater capacity of voice traffic and more coverage.

3) 1xRTT on Sprint currently does not support VoLTE handoff, Sprint does not have VoLTE as of now, but it is in the pipeline. The plan is to make VoLTE handoff to 1x, and they're working on it, but it's no promises. The only prototype system ever establish has an 80% success rate or so, possibly lower than that.

 

Hope we're all clear about this!

I hope they don't do VoLTE until they fix the hand-off issue. It wouldn't be worth the poor customer experience even if they could make data speeds improve

[payturr]

I hope they don't do VoLTE until they fix the hand-off issue. It wouldn't be worth the poor customer experience even if they could make data speeds improve

They may or may not. Remember, this is not something that actual network engineers ever perfected to 100% success rate. It's gonna be a long while before it's a perfect system, not to forget the FIT; hell it's totally possible Sprint densifies and turns on VoLTE without ever needing it before it's done.

[Fraydog]

The PDF I linked to on the Washington DC VoLTE/HD Voice test placed Sprint CDMA2000 1X Advanced call quality in the same boat as T-Mobile's UMTS HD Voice. The big jump was to VoLTE where HD call quality was similar on all three carriers. Who do I think has the best VoLTE setup right now? AT&T even though it's enabled by market.

 

- eSRVCC fallback is down to .14 seconds on average, which is barely noticeable in the real world.

- Better low band spectrum position means better VoLTE coverage.

- Even when leaving the HD footprint calls can quickly and reliably continue on the circuit switched network for both AT&T and T-Mobile.

- AT&T had the best call setup times.

 

T-Mobile's VoLTE implementation is hurt by less than ubiquitous low band, and Verizon's is hurt by no eSRVCC fallback. All three providers had similar quality for VoLTE calls even though T-Mobile used the 23.85 Kbps codec and AT&T and Verizon used 12.65 Kbps.

 

I give the Death Star plenty of grief but I feel like they have done well with their VoLTE implantation.

[ndog21]

The PDF I linked to on the Washington DC VoLTE/HD Voice test placed Sprint CDMA2000 1X Advanced call quality in the same boat as T-Mobile's UMTS HD Voice. The big jump was to VoLTE where HD call quality was similar on all three carriers. Who do I think has the best VoLTE setup right now? AT&T even though it's enabled by market.

 

- eSRVCC fallback is down to .14 seconds on average, which is barely noticeable in the real world.

- Better low band spectrum position means better VoLTE coverage.

- Even when leaving the HD footprint calls can quickly and reliably continue on the circuit switched network for both AT&T and T-Mobile.

- AT&T had the best call setup times.

 

T-Mobile's VoLTE implementation is hurt by less than ubiquitous low band, and Verizon's is hurt by no eSRVCC fallback. All three providers had similar quality for VoLTE calls even though T-Mobile used the 23.85 Kbps codec and AT&T and Verizon used 12.65 Kbps.

 

I give the Death Star plenty of grief but I feel like they have done well with their VoLTE implantation.

Awesome info, but I'm curious as how Sprint can technically fall back from a VoLTE call? Can't you only fall back using UMTS? If Sprint can fall back to 1x then why isn't Verizon doing this? Thanks.

 

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[payturr]

Awesome info, but I'm curious as how Sprint can technically fall back from a VoLTE call? Can't you only fall back using UMTS? If Sprint can fall back to 1x then why isn't Verizon doing this? Thanks.

 

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As of right now they can't. They're working on a process to make fallback work. Verizon isn't bothering because they're 100% focused on building LTE out 100% of the 1x/3G footprint so they can dismantle their entire CDMA network in the 2020s

[Paynefanbro]

This isn't exactly good news for T-Mobile fans. T-Mobile has made Motorola disable Band 12 in the Moto E 4GLTE because "T-Mobile doesn’t want phones without VoLTE capabilities using its band 12, citing risks where users may be unable to complete voice calls, despite their handsets indicating strong reception. Rather than allow users of these non-VoLTE handsets to enjoy band 12 data connectivity (even without voice support), T-Mobile is convincing phone-makers to remove their support entirely."

 

Good news is, the CDMA version still has Band 12. Maybe they're trying to push up their reliability scores since the RootMetrics report came out and showed that's where their network needed to improve the most.

 

http://pocketnow.com/2015/08/26/t-mobile-band-12-lte

[payturr]

This isn't exactly good news for T-Mobile fans. T-Mobile has made Motorola disable Band 12 in the Moto E 4GLTE because "T-Mobile doesn’t want phones without VoLTE capabilities using its band 12, citing risks where users may be unable to complete voice calls, despite their handsets indicating strong reception. Rather than allow users of these non-VoLTE handsets to enjoy band 12 data connectivity (even without voice support), T-Mobile is convincing phone-makers to remove their support entirely."

 

Good news is, the CDMA version still has Band 12. Maybe they're trying to push up their reliability scores since the RootMetrics report came out and showed that's where their network needed to improve the most.

 

http://pocketnow.com/2015/08/26/t-mobile-band-12-lte

Same story with the Moto G and possibly the Moto X. It's a big fault on Motorola's side, they should know VoLTE is a big thing here now.

[S4GRU]

You mean Moto doesn't bow to Legere's cult of personality? I guess it is now, LeNOvo.

 

Using Tapatalk on Nexus 6

[joshuam]

It's going to be called the Moto Unphone

 

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[Fraydog]

http://www.androidpolice.com/2015/08/26/why-is-t-mobile-telling-manufacturers-to-remove-band-12-lte-support-from-some-unlocked-smartphones/#disqus_thread

 

911 could play a part, as in with 700 MHz data only it would leave voice calls SOL and force emergency calls to have to hit B5 AT&T HSPA.

 

Still, if T-Mobile didn't think this through, it's a major screwup on their part. VoLTE support should be part of the open ecosystem at this point, and the reason it isn't lies with T-Mobile not working with device manufacturers.

[cyclone]

http://www.fiercewireless.com/press-releases/t-mobile-joins-cca-data-services-hub

 

Now that T-Mobile is joining CCA, will this allow Sprint's network and T-Mobile's to blend together? Would phones capable of utilizing the appropriate bands work across this combined group? Or is this just a publicity stunt and easy way for T-Mobile to say they expanded their native coverage on paper?

[techfranz]

Is this a Cellular Phone Carrier's club that shares some switches or is it a real roaming agreement?

 

Looks to be me like a great forum for Carrier Discussions amongst themselves but maybe just a small amount of tangible benefits for customers presently.

[ericdabbs]

I am glad that Tmobile is joining the CCA.  Sprint and Tmobile need to team up support each other as the smaller carriers compared to the big 2 for coverage purposes.

[cortney]

This isn't exactly good news for T-Mobile fans. T-Mobile has made Motorola disable Band 12 in the Moto E 4GLTE because "T-Mobile doesn’t want phones without VoLTE capabilities using its band 12, citing risks where users may be unable to complete voice calls, despite their handsets indicating strong reception. Rather than allow users of these non-VoLTE handsets to enjoy band 12 data connectivity (even without voice support), T-Mobile is convincing phone-makers to remove their support entirely."

 

Good news is, the CDMA version still has Band 12. Maybe they're trying to push up their reliability scores since the RootMetrics report came out and showed that's where their network needed to improve the most.

 

http://pocketnow.com/2015/08/26/t-mobile-band-12-lte

 

I think they all respond to RootMetrics results in one way or another.

 

I'm glad to see RootMetrics is digging deeper to include Venues, Transit Stations and Campus'. 

Edited August 27, 2015 by cortney

[Paynefanbro]

I think they all respond to RootMetrics results in one way or another.

 

I'm glad to see RootMetrics is digging deeper to include Venues, Transit Stations and Campus'. 

 

I just realized that they're doing that, that's really cool!