T-Mobile LTE & Network Discussion V2

[Fraydog]

http://www.androidpolice.com/2015/08/27/t-mobile-unofficially-speaks-to-us-about-band-12-lte-volte-and-unlocked-smartphones-and-yep-its-still-confusing/

 

Clear as mud. Read Ruddock's points in the comments though. It's really good journalism on his part to dig on this, and I'm also disappointed that T-Mobile hasn't been transparent about this. They could get major points for being transparent but they're not.

[joshuam]

T-Mobile is joining CCA... Pretty big news.

 

http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/t-mobile-joins-ccas-data-roaming-hub-expand-reciprocal-roaming-deals-smalle/2015-08-27

 

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

[Tengen31]

CCA is smaller carriers working with first Sprint now T-mobile. I dont know what its means for T-mobile as of right now. However for Sprint It means something other than 1X roaming. Do to sprint mostly roaming onto Verzion. Roaming onto carriers that are not verzion will allow of 3G and, LTE roaming.  some of the smaller carriers from the CCA dont even own any LTE so they will lease it from sprint. They could now lease (once details get worked on) from T-mobile. Tmobile hasnt yet said which small carriers they will be working with.

[mittenmitten]

Being a part of the partnership, doesn't that mean T-Mobile will have to open their B12 network to Sprint? T-Mobile can't roam on Sprint at ALL, considering none of their phones have Sprint bands, but Sprint phones are getting B12 and most of them already have GSM, which would allow them to roam on T-Mobile.

 

So, is this a desperate measure by T-Mobile to pump up their coverage map? They're getting a raw deal, not sharing Sprint's coverage, while Sprint has access to their coverage..

[avb]

Being a part of the partnership, doesn't that mean T-Mobile will have to open their B12 network to Sprint? T-Mobile can't roam on Sprint at ALL, considering none of their phones have Sprint bands, but Sprint phones are getting B12 and most of them already have GSM, which would allow them to roam on T-Mobile.

 

So, is this a desperate measure by T-Mobile to pump up their coverage map? They're getting a raw deal, not sharing Sprint's coverage, while Sprint has access to their coverage..

No.  This just makes it easier for T-Mobile to set up roaming agreements with other carriers in the CCA.

[Maverick]

No. This just makes it easier for T-Mobile to set up roaming agreements with other carriers in the CCA.

Roaming agreements!

 

In return for what. The pink carrier will need to give up something unless they believe they are getting something for nothing. You see what I'm getting at! Band 12 or an anything else can and would be put on the table as far as agreements go.

[greenbastard]

Roaming agreements!

 

In return for what. The pink carrier will need to give up something unless they believe they are getting something for nothing. You see what I'm getting at! Band 12 or an anything else can and would be put on the table as far as agreements go.

Just because they are members doesn't mean they have to open up roaming to everyone. They don't have to strike deals with all the members.

[maxsilver]

Roaming agreements!

 

In return for what. 

 

It could just be cash.

 

T-Mobile could open up their network, and I don't see any reason they wouldn't. But they also could simply pay money for roaming too. It's presumably cheaper per unit to roam with these members, than what they're paying AT&T today.

[avb]

T-Mobile officially comments on unlocked phones and band 12.

 

http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/t-mobile-all-band-12-lte-devices-our-network-must-support-volte-e911/2015-08-28

 

Unlocked phones such as the Moto G have band 12 disabled per T-Mobile request and now we know why.

[S4GRU]

T-Mobile officially comments on unlocked phones and band 12.

 

http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/t-mobile-all-band-12-lte-devices-our-network-must-support-volte-e911/2015-08-28

 

Unlocked phones such as the Moto G have band 12 disabled per T-Mobile request and now we know why.

Be that as it may, how is a customer safer when they can't get any signal? At least if they had B12 LTE data in a place with no other voice signal, they could text, email or use Google Hangouts voice call to get help. Now they will get no signal at all and just die. This is not well thought out at all. Data without voice is better than no signal at all.

 

Using Tapatalk on Nexus 6

[WiWavelength]

Be that as it may, how is a customer safer when they can't get any signal? At least if they had B12 LTE data in a place with no other voice signal, they could text, email or use Google Hangouts voice call to get help. Now they will get no signal at all and just die. This is not well thought out at all. Data without voice is better than no signal at all.

 

This is what T-Mobile gets for possessing minimal low band spectrum but putting its eggs in the VoLTE basket so soon.  Still, I can understand why T-Mobile has made the move to disable band 12 on non VoLTE handsets.

 

The legal liability for T-Mobile could be significant if a non VoLTE handset were stuck on T-Mobile band 12 -- because that is native service, the highest priority -- but unable to make an E911 call.  Better to avoid potential civil lawsuits, just leave those non VoLTE handsets with roaming or no service.  As long as AT&T or some other GSM type provider signal is available, an E911 call will be connected, even on a handset that indicates no service due to T-Mobile prohibiting roaming in that LAC.

 

For further discussion, read the comment I left on the FierceWireless article this afternoon:

 

This paragraph appears to be in error, specifically the "out of range of both" phrase:

 

"The issue for T-Mobile is that if a Band 12-capable phone does not have VoLTE and E911 capabilities and is out of range of both a Band 12 signal and other T-Mobile spectrum bands, it will not know to default to roam on other carriers' networks, meaning 911 calls might not go through, which would be a violation of FCC rules and potentially create risks to public safety."

 

As I understand the E911 call issue, a band 12 capable, non VoLTE handset becomes a data only device if within T-Mobile band 12 coverage yet beyond T-Mobile band 2/4 W-CDMA eCSFB coverage. If that handset were "out of range" of all T-Mobile service, then it would roam or have no service -- either way, E911 calls still should be connected using any airlink compatible service available. Thus, the E911 call problem for a band 12, non VoLTE handset is being "in range" of T-Mobile band 12 yet "out of range" of T-Mobile band 2/4 W-CDMA eCSFB coverage. In such case, because the handset is camped on T-Mobile band 12, which is native service, it will not automatically roam or connect to any other airlink compatible service for E911 calls.

 

And, hey, even Fabian up voted my explanation -- though he declared it was "lengthy."

 

AJ

[jroepcke51]

This is what T-Mobile gets for possessing minimal low band spectrum but putting its eggs in the VoLTE basket so soon. Still, I can understand why T-Mobile has made the move to disable band 12 on non VoLTE handsets.

 

The legal liability for T-Mobile could be significant if a non VoLTE handset were stuck on T-Mobile band 12 -- because that is native service, the highest priority -- but unable to make an E911 call. Better to avoid potential civil lawsuits, just leave those non VoLTE handsets with roaming or no service. As long as AT&T or some other GSM type provider signal is available, an E911 call will be connected, even on a handset that indicates no service due to T-Mobile prohibiting roaming in that LAC.

 

For further discussion, read the comment I left on the FierceWireless article this afternoon:

 

 

And, hey, even Fabian up voted my explanation -- though he declared it was "lengthy."

 

AJ

Hey if you want an explanation and clearly states the issues in an understandable format, length is necessary.

[WiWavelength]

Hey if you want an explanation and clearly states the issues in an understandable format, length is necessary.

 

No, in today's Millennial society, TL;DR.  But a hot take is a moral good.

 

 

AJ

[Yuhfhrh]

It seems like a software issue really. When dialing 911, software should know to kick off of LTE and scan for ANY available GSM/HSPA signal.

[cortney]

Hey if you want an explanation and clearly states the issues in an understandable format, length is necessary.

 

Yeah but as per that comment, the person in question was just trolling. And to point out the humorous hypocrisy, said person writes paragraphs and paragraphs of odious ad hominem crap to people they do not like or who write factual arguments in an attempt to instigate them and deflect the topic. 

[payturr]

It seems like a software issue really. When dialing 911, software should know to kick off of LTE and scan for ANY available GSM/HSPA signal.

That would take a lot of time which one probably won't have in a dire situation, and it's totally possible there is no GSM/HSPA signal in a given place. T-Mobile made the right call. Where they made the wrong call was to build B12 only sites to expand coverage, they need HSPA+ and B4 on those sites as well. Other than that, everything falls on the device manufacturer.

[Yuhfhrh]

That would take a lot of time which one probably won't have in a dire situation, and it's totally possible there is no GSM/HSPA signal in a given place. T-Mobile made the right call. Where they made the wrong call was to build B12 only sites to expand coverage, they need HSPA+ and B4 on those sites as well. Other than that, everything falls on the device manufacturer.

 

It would not take a lot of time. Any single path LTE device already does this exact thing. It just seems to be a software issue preventing 911 calls on ATT/others when connected to T-Mobile LTE. And if there is no signal besides the stray 700MHz, then you should still have the ability to send a text or have data capabilities to retrieve information, rather than have a big red X.

[anthony.spina97]

No, in today's Millennial society, TL;DR.  But a hot take is a moral good.

 

 

AJ

That's something I don't understand about kids my age. Personally, I love to have an answer to my question explained at length and in detail. I can't fully learn the information with a TL;DR statement. 

 

That may also be because us Spina's are known for always giving the "long version" of stories with every minute detail, so maybe I just like the same thing back. Who knows.

 

-Anthony

[payturr]

It would not take a lot of time. Any single path LTE device already does this exact thing. It just seems to be a software issue preventing 911 calls on ATT/others when connected to T-Mobile LTE. And if there is no signal besides the stray 700MHz, then you should still have the ability to send a text or have data capabilities to retrieve information, rather than have a big red X.

Yeah because eCSFB drops back onto CDMA/HSPA+ that's essentially coming from the same macro, we're talking about the same thing on a site with no legacy network alongside it that would probably have to scan for another network to roam on.

 

Text to 911 still isn't a big thing, and who has the time to text an emergency when they could scream on a phone and let A-GPS give operators a rundown of the where and when? Besides, most normal people would freak out if they see full bars, can't make an emergency call, and if they survive the situation, sue the hell out of T-Mobile. For T-Mobile, they're better off releasing themselves of any reliability/negligence in those cases. 

[Yuhfhrh]

Yeah because eCSFB drops back onto CDMA/HSPA+ that's essentially coming from the same macro, we're talking about the same thing on a site with no legacy network alongside it that would probably have to scan for another network to roam on.

 

Text to 911 still isn't a big thing, and who has the time to text an emergency when they could scream on a phone and let A-GPS give operators a rundown of the where and when? Besides, most normal people would freak out if they see full bars, can't make an emergency call, and if they survive the situation, sue the hell out of T-Mobile. For T-Mobile, they're better off releasing themselves of any reliability/negligence in those cases. 

 

When connected to a Clearwire LTE site out of Sprint 1X range, placing a call immediately puts me on Verizon 1X. This is a software issue one way or another.

 

I don't see how T-Mobile would be liable for providing only LTE services on 700MHz, so I doubt suing would get you anywhere.

 

The case of the Clearwire LTE site I mentioned above in Houston is the exact same senerio as the theoretical T-Mobile subscriber would be in. Only LTE available from the native provider. If Verizon wasn't on the same tower, I would be left with LTE from Clearwire with no voice fallback.

[payturr]

When connected to a Clearwire LTE site out of Sprint 1X range, placing a call immediately puts me on Verizon 1X. This is a software issue one way or another.

 

I don't see how T-Mobile would be liable for providing only LTE services on 700MHz, so I doubt suing would get you anywhere.

This I actually have never experienced so thank you for sharing that, always nice to know.

 

Because when you pick up a cell phone and see bars, the first thing any human being things is "Oh, I can easily make a phone call!" They never think that the signal only relates to data, as this was never the case with the legacy networks. So, picking up a B12 device in a B12 only zone and noticing that phone calls cannot be made, the average consumer would freak out in the case of emergency, and sue. It's completely logical, it makes sense, and there are probably a lot of cases where a judge would find T-Mobile at least partially responsible.

[WiWavelength]

It would not take a lot of time. Any single path LTE device already does this exact thing. It just seems to be a software issue preventing 911 calls on ATT/others when connected to T-Mobile LTE.

 

It is a firmware issue -- and both Motorola and T-Mobile are partly responsible.  On low end handsets, Motorola may not be willing to create custom E911 scanning/fallback firmware for T-Mobile, which is kind of an odd duck in that it has some low band packet switched data spectrum nationally but no low band circuit switched voice spectrum (except in Myrtle Beach).

 

T-Mobile is also rather stingy with roaming agreements.  Lots of "No Service -- Emergency Calls Only."  And therein lies the rub.  Where only band 12 fills those gaps, T-Mobile handsets are programmed to cling to that native signal, which does not support first party voice for non VoLTE handsets.

 

AJ

[Rawvega]

Legere just finished a Periscope where he decided to rant about data abusers on his network. He vowed to take action against the idiot, loudmouth (the irony) data abusers who are screwing it up for everybody. Of course, he claims that the data abusers will try to hide behind net neutrality. Expect a blog from him tomorrow about it. Needless to say, I was rather amused. 

[derrph]

Legere just finished a Periscope where he decided to rant about data abusers on his network. He vowed to take action against the idiot, loudmouth (the irony) data abusers who are screwing it up for everybody. Of course, he claims that the data abusers will try to hide behind net neutrality. Expect a blog from him tomorrow about it. Needless to say, I was rather amused.

Data Strong... Sounds like John is eating his words he said a while back about having more capacity per customer and that if you want to watch YouTube all day go on and do it cause we are data strong.

 

 

 

 

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Edited August 30, 2015 by derrph

[Maverick]

Legere just finished a Periscope where he decided to rant about data abusers on his network. He vowed to take action against the idiot, loudmouth (the irony) data abusers who are screwing it up for everybody. Of course, he claims that the data abusers will try to hide behind net neutrality. Expect a blog from him tomorrow about it. Needless to say, I was rather amused.

Haha!

 

Backpedaling much are we.

 

 

PS. Would you have a link to this so called periscope, I like to see it.