LTE Plus / Enhanced LTE (was "Sprint Spark" - Official Name for the Tri-Band Network)

[cdk]

So, they got approval a few weeks ago. Well we don't see anything yet, then the only logical conclusion is something is so wrong with them....

 

Great speculation piece, I am not even going to bother looking at the coments it'll generate.

[TheForce627]

1) Band 26 is to be the utter last resort for those that need it the most 

2) If CA is to be had then B26 will be the PCC as B25 will be the first to lose connection. If a PCC connection is lost then the device has to do a rescan to acquire a new PCC thus Band 26 would be the priority and everyone would be on it which is not the point of B26.

3) 3GPP has not codified B25-26 CA. 

4) There are no existing plans to aggregate B25-25 though it is supported 3GPP Rel 12.

They could do what AT&T does with CA. Most times I'm parked on B2 as the PCC and B17 is the SCC. Only have B26 used as additional downlink when it is needed and most traffic goes over B25

[Ascertion]

So, they got approval a few weeks ago. Well we don't see anything yet, then the only logical conclusion is something is so wrong with them....

 

Great speculation piece, I am not even going to bother looking at the coments it'll generate.

From that same site they even stated that the work will halt short term...ramp up soon.

 

Sent from my M8

[RAvirani]

In anticipation of the iPhone 6S which I will be getting, I was wondering what the range difference was between B41 with 8t8r and B25. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

[payturr]

In anticipation of the iPhone 6S which I will be getting, I was wondering what the range difference was between B41 with 8t8r and B25. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

B41 with all 8 transmitters live and beamforming will have the exact same range as B25

[lilotimz]

B41 with all 8 transmitters live and beamforming will have the exact same range as B25

No it will not.

 

8t8r substantially improves the 2.5 frequency to the level that it can be comparable to b25 but only at closer distances. One cannot change physics and the difference between 2500-2700 and 1800-1900 frequencies.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5

[payturr]

No it will not.

 

8t8r substantially improves the 2.5 frequency to the level that it can be comparable to b25 but only at closer distances. One cannot change physics and the difference between 2500-2700 and 1800-1900 frequencies.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5

 

I heard from around here it does, but I guess I misinterpreted it. So it's range will probably more similar to band 4? Or does band 4 get a reach advantage from the 1700MHz uplink?

[nick]

No it will not.

 

8t8r substantially improves the 2.5 frequency to the level that it can be comparable to b25 but only at closer distances. One cannot change physics and the difference between 2500-2700 and 1800-1900 frequencies.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5

he was probably thinking of this article

 

 

http://www.dailywireless.org/2014/02/05/sprint-spark-firestarter-or-blowing-smoke/

 

"base stations equipped with beamforming and 8T8R technologies could increase cell range by a factor of 1.5 – theoretically reducing the need for cell sites by nearly 50 per cent."

 

But that is talking 1.5 increase over old clear equipment I think.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lilotimz]

he was probably thinking of this article

 

 

http://www.dailywireless.org/2014/02/05/sprint-spark-firestarter-or-blowing-smoke/

 

"base stations equipped with beamforming and 8T8R technologies could increase cell range by a factor of 1.5 – theoretically reducing the need for cell sites by nearly 50 per cent."

 

But that is talking 1.5 increase over old clear equipment I think.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes. Over older 2t2r equipment like clear. I think the average increase from a one to one replacement is somewhere in the 5-10 dBm range.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5

[Dkoellerwx]

I heard from around here it does, but I guess I misinterpreted it. So it's range will probably more similar to band 4? Or does band 4 get a reach advantage from the 1700MHz uplink?

 

With no obstructions, it's range may be similar to 1900. However, that will not change the fact that it is still easily blocked by physical obstructions. 

[payturr]

With no obstructions, it's range may be similar to 1900. However, that will not change the fact that it is still easily blocked by physical obstructions. 

This makes sense, so in a perfect environment that's flat with no buildings or trees or people it's very comparable, but throw in buildings and trees and people and the story changes quickly. Thanks fam

[lilotimz]

This makes sense, so in a perfect environment that's flat with no buildings or trees or people it's very comparable, but throw in buildings and trees and people and the story changes quickly. Thanks fam

 

AN easy explanation is this. 

 

In a rural area at full power

 

B26 --> ~10 to 15 miles

B25 --> up to ~10 miles

B41 --> ~4-5 miles with old Clear equipment --> ~5-6 miles with new 8T8R equipment

 

Substantially superior compared to old equipment but can't change physics. 

[nick]

AN easy explanation is this. 

 

In a rural area at full power

 

B26 --> ~10 to 15 miles

B25 --> up to ~10 miles

B41 --> ~4-5 miles with old Clear equipment --> ~5-6 miles with new 8T8R equipment

 

Substantially superior compared to old equipment but can't change physics. 

That is either overly optimistic or my area is in desperate need of major optimization, i have a very tall tower (so tall it needs a flashing light) band 41 about .5 miles, band 25 about 2 miles band 26 about 3 miles tops. (yes its all from that tower signal is strong if I hug the tower,  that is over an open corn field unobstructed view, level ground.  can optimization really improve range to that much?   if so that would be AWESOME!  

[lilotimz]

That is either overly optimistic or my area is in desperate need of major optimization, i have a very tall tower (so tall it needs a flashing light) band 41 about .5 miles, band 25 about 2 miles band 26 about 3 miles tops. (yes its all from that tower signal is strong if I hug the tower,  that is over an open corn field unobstructed view, level ground.  can optimization really improve range to that much?   if so that would be AWESOME!  

 

Well this is a theoretical situation with all flatlands and no obstructions with antennas at basically no downtilt that showcases my point. Carrier tends to not do that in more populated areas as capacity is needed. One typically does not set up a urban cell to cover more than a few miles in radius which is how Sprint gets away with saying 8T8R B41 can be similar to B25. 

 

Also sounds like they need to adjust the 2.5 RET settings remotely. Shit happens so spam the crap out of Sprint support. 

[nick]

Well this is a theoretical situation with all flatlands and no obstructions with antennas at basically no downtilt that showcases my point. Carrier tends to not do that in more populated areas as capacity is needed. One typically does not set up a urban cell to cover more than a few miles in radius which is how Sprint gets away with saying 8T8R B41 can be similar to B25. 

 

Also sounds like they need to adjust the 2.5 RET settings remotely. Shit happens so spam the crap out of Sprint support. 

I have been in contact with sprint support, its slow going...   they always run to, " I see no problems in your area"  yes i know its on, but you must see almost no connections to band 41, as the tower is in a corn field yet band 41 reaches 4-5 houses and a small lightly used road.... mean while the interstate and my home within view of the tower 1.5 has sub .5meg edge of coverage band 26  all day long... on plus side a different tower in town 1-2 miles away while inside buildings with steel walls and steel roof, great band 41 service both signal and speed.     

[RAvirani]

I heard from around here it does, but I guess I misinterpreted it. So it's range will probably more similar to band 4? Or does band 4 get a reach advantage from the 1700MHz uplink?

Yea now does band 4 compare band 25 and band 41 range?

[payturr]

Yea now does band 4 compare band 25 and band 41 range?

Band 4 is very similar but slightly worse because 2100 vs 1900

[Cataract2]

I have been in contact with sprint support, its slow going...   they always run to, " I see no problems in your area"  yes i know its on, but you must see almost no connections to band 41, as the tower is in a corn field yet band 41 reaches 4-5 houses and a small lightly used road.... mean while the interstate and my home within view of the tower 1.5 has sub .5meg edge of coverage band 26  all day long... on plus side a different tower in town 1-2 miles away while inside buildings with steel walls and steel roof, great band 41 service both signal and speed.     

Support is a bunch of people sitting in front of a computer terminal with very little techincal and no engineering background.  There is nothing they can do or tell you that the computer doesn't already say.  They aren't getting the true details other than on/off.  You can turn on the notification data gathering setting in your Sprint Zone.  At least that will send back some technical data to Sprint that they will hopefully analyze.

[nick]

Support is a bunch of people sitting in front of a computer terminal with very little techincal and no engineering background. There is nothing they can do or tell you that the computer doesn't already say. They aren't getting the true details other than on/off. You can turn on the notification data gathering setting in your Sprint Zone. At least that will send back some technical data to Sprint that they will hopefully analyze.

I like to think that I'm in contact with someone better than that, he is on Marci Carrs's "executive support staff," she is the vp of customer support but your right, my support guy could be no better than the rest.... I just like to think I can somehow help make changes.... Only time will tell.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[greenbastard]

Yes. Over older 2t2r equipment like clear. I think the average increase from a one to one replacement is somewhere in the 5-10 dBm range.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5

I argued this a while back about 2.5 GHz but was told it would be close to matching Sprint's PCS band by several members. I guess my skepticism was somewhat justified about 8t8r. I just don't see how building penetration can be matched to that of the 1900 G band. 2.5 had a hard time with dense trees so densification will be the only way to make 2.5 GHz worth while for Sprint.

[nexgencpu]

I argued this a while back about 2.5 GHz but was told it would be close to matching Sprint's PCS band by several members. I guess my skepticism was somewhat justified about 8t8r. I just don't see how building penetration can be matched to that of the 1900 G band. 2.5 had a hard time with dense trees so densification will be the only way to make 2.5 GHz worth while for Sprint.

The one thing your not taking into account is while 1.9 has stronger propagation characteristics, you neglected the fact that 2.5 is sitting on a much wider channel (5x5 vs 20+20) which together with MIMO+Beamforming translate to a much better experience even at a worse signal level.

 

Perfect example of this...

 

http://s4gru.com/index.php?/topic/1344-network-visionlte-jacksonville-market-including-gainesvillest-augustineocala/?p=434044

 

 

At that signal level, Band 25 would be decimated, even at -110dBm, coming from same site.

 

So all things considered, if Sprint optimizes CA sites properly, i can see them allowing the device to ride B41 at signals as low as -120dBm with pretty good results.

 

For comparisons sake, here in an urban environment, B25 runs well until about -100dBm.

[greenbastard]

The one thing your not taking into account is while 1.9 has stronger propagation characteristics, you neglected the fact that 2.5 is sitting on a much wider channel (5x5 vs 20+20) which together with MIMO+Beamforming translate to a much better experience even at a worse signal level.

 

Perfect example of this...

 

http://s4gru.com/index.php?/topic/1344-network-visionlte-jacksonville-market-including-gainesvillest-augustineocala/?p=434044

 

 

At that signal level, Band 25 would be decimated, even at -110dBm, coming from same site.

 

So all things considered, if Sprint optimizes CA sites properly, i can see them allowing the device to ride B41 at signals as low as -120dBm with pretty good results.

 

For comparisons sake, here in an urban environment, B25 runs well until about -100dBm.

That was taken inside a Walmart that sat next to a B41 tower. Do you think that would have been possible had the Walmart been 1 block away from the tower? Probably not. The fact that the Walmart was sitting next to the tower actually proves how much B41 can be affected by buildings. We've seen good network performance from 8t8r radios at the edge of cell, but the real question is how far has that edge of cell been pushed? I hope it's not to a couple more buildings next to the towers. Also, how low of a signal threshhold will our phones have to have on B41 until battrry life is diminished? If that user was sitting on an optimized B41 with beamforming on, then I'm not really optimistic about the reach of 8t8r. I'd like to be proven wrong, but I'm not going to hold my breath and expect to get B41 where I currently get a decent B25 in the future.

[MtnSierraSprint]

AN easy explanation is this. 

 

In a rural area at full power

 

B26 --> ~10 to 15 miles

B25 --> up to ~10 miles

B41 --> ~4-5 miles with old Clear equipment --> ~5-6 miles with new 8T8R equipment

 

Substantially superior compared to old equipment but can't change physics. 

 

 

Is there a value/number representing indoor/building effect on range, that you could divide estimated range by for each band.

 

For example:

 

r = range, x = indoor factor

 

B25:  r=10   x=3

B26:  r=15   x=2

B41:  r=5     x=4

[MtnSierraSprint]

I guess I should include the formula for a complete example.

 

range from tower when inside a building = r/x

[mozamcrew]

Support is a bunch of people sitting in front of a computer terminal with very little techincal and no engineering background.  There is nothing they can do or tell you that the computer doesn't already say.  They aren't getting the true details other than on/off.  You can turn on the notification data gathering setting in your Sprint Zone.  At least that will send back some technical data to Sprint that they will hopefully analyze.

 

Where do you go in the Sprint Zone app to turn this on?