Network Vision/LTE - New York City Market

[mirskyc]

Saw my first local keep site finally having work done. 31-77 32nd St Astoria.  This roof only had Sprint on it previously. All the sprint antennas are now gone and there is one sector with T-Mobile Antennas now.  

Interesting that this site actually relied on microwave backhaul, which is now also removed, from a near by Sprint site at 23-35 Broadway. T-Mobile was also located there. I wonder if they had fiber installed on the keep site

[Paynefanbro]

 

On 7/25/2023 at 9:31 AM, mirskyc said:

Interesting that this site actually relied on microwave backhaul, which is now also removed, from a near by Sprint site at 23-35 Broadway. T-Mobile was also located there. I wonder if they had fiber installed on the keep site

Virtually all of the recent Sprint conversions I've found have multi-gig fiber backhaul. I think that's gonna be the norm for their sites going forward.

On 7/24/2023 at 11:18 PM, Paynefanbro said:

gNB 1347372 fits the bill. Each cell pretty matches up with an existing oDAS node in Downtown Brooklyn.

Cell 301 -> eNB 134687 Cell 1/11
Cell 303 -> eNB 134687 Cell 3/13
Cell 306 -> eNB 134688 Cell 6/16 (Importantly this small cell and the corresponding gNB were spotted two days apart confirming that they're the same site)

Following up on this, a bunch of small cells definitely have n41. I just visited some in Brooklyn Heights/Dumbo and all of them had n41 broadcasting from them. 

1. eNB 134685-3 is a small cell across the street from the 130 Furman St. Got -65dbm SA n41 signal while next to it.
   
   
   
    
2. eNB 134686-6 is a small cell at the intersection of Hicks and McKenney, right by the southbound entrance to the BQE in Brooklyn Heights. I got -72dbm signal on SA n41 and look at how low that ping is.
   
   
    
3. eNB 134687-1 in Brooklyn Heights is a small cell near the intersection of Henry St and Poplar St. The nearest macro with n41 in this area is the site on top of Grimaldi's and this specific area is at the edge of the range of that cell so signal should be weak. Instead I had -75dbm signal and great speeds.
   
   
    
4. eNB 134687-3 at Pearl St and High St in Downtown Brooklyn.
   
   
   
   

[mirskyc]

I just noticed N71 is 15MHz and B71 doesn't exist anymore.

I recall B71 being 10 MHz and N71 being 5MHZ. Then I thought they swapped to B71 5MHz and N71 10MHz. Then they leased spectrum from Dish and this allowed N71 to be bumped up to 15MHz but I thought B71 was stil broadcasting. 

[Paynefanbro]

1 hour ago, mirskyc said:

I just noticed N71 is 15MHz and B71 doesn't exist anymore.

I recall B71 being 10 MHz and N71 being 5MHZ. Then I thought they swapped to B71 5MHz and N71 10MHz. Then they leased spectrum from Dish and this allowed N71 to be bumped up to 15MHz but I thought B71 was stil broadcasting. 

Nope, no more Band 71 in NYC. It still exists in Long Island though. I connected to it in Great Neck last week. 

[Paynefanbro]

On 7/7/2023 at 5:53 PM, Paynefanbro said:

Caught workers on this site. It's still not live but it looked like they're doing their finishing touches.

This site is live now:

Sprint eNB 6786 -> T-Mobile eNB 446333
Location: 40.64708295826081, -73.97986782685851

— — — — —

T-Mobile eNB 344423 is a gig+ site.

— — — — —

600MHz LTE is still live in Staten Island. Connected to it while in Red Hook and while driving along the Belt Parkway recently. 

 

[T-MoblieUser207]

On 7/25/2023 at 10:28 AM, Paynefanbro said:

Following up on this, a bunch of small cells definitely have n41. I just visited some in Brooklyn Heights/Dumbo and all of them had n41 broadcasting from them.

Excellent news, I wonder if it was a remote update or someone climbed the pole and added equipment recently.

----

4xCA is live in Brooklyn, they flipped it on Sunday night/Monday morning.

 

The subway system DAS is seeing more n41 pop up. Fulton Street in Manhattan has it on the A/C platforms, although its only 50 MHz. This was a station that had Sprint B41 live. No speedtest yet, as I spotted it on the train rolling through.

[Paynefanbro]

14 hours ago, T-MoblieUser207 said:

Excellent news, I wonder if it was a remote update or someone climbed the pole and added equipment recently.

 

From what I've seen in some Ericsson PDFs the currently installed 22xx radios support LTE (FDD+TDD) and LAA alongside 5G via software update but I'm not certain what bandwidth on NR. The 44xx radios on the other hand support up to 6 LTE carriers (FDD+TDD) and up to 100MHz on NR but they don't support LAA.

In a previous post you mentioned that you saw 120MHz n41 on a small cell which makes me wonder how they managed to do that given the bandwidth constraints of the currently installed antennas. The small cells are also broadcasting LAA as far as I can tell.

What that makes me think is that T-Mobile is potentially installing the Dual Radio variant of their Ericsson Micro Radios, the same one you see on those new strand mounts they've been installing in New Jersey, maybe with a single 44xx and a single 22xx. Doing so would allow them to simultaneously run Band 2/n25, Band/n66, LAA, and n41 at 120MHz (I think). 

 

There's a user on the Cellmapper Reddit who seems to be a tower/small cell tech here in NYC and he mentioned a while back that he hadn't seen any of the designs for the new T-Mobile 5G nodes yet. Hopefully he'll be able to provide some insight in the future.

[Paynefanbro]

I mapped a new eNB 345042 in Brooklyn. I thought it was a new macro given that Band 12 got mapped but there are no permits for any new sites or Sprint conversions in the area. Maybe a new DAS at the Nostrand Avenue LIRR station?

[AirlineFlyer]

37 minutes ago, Paynefanbro said:

I mapped a new eNB 345042 in Brooklyn. I thought it was a new macro given that Band 12 got mapped but there are no permits for any new sites or Sprint conversions in the area. Maybe a new DAS at the Nostrand Avenue LIRR station?

Did T-Moible finally get its DAS system turned up in the LIRR tunnels? It has been literally years behind Verizon in getting this done and I've been pestering the NY Engineering & Ops director about it. It was supposed to go online in 2020, then 2021, then November 2022, then March 2023, then April, and last week he said finally it would be online end of this week. Can anyone confirm that its online through the whole tunnel?

[Paynefanbro]

39 minutes ago, AirlineFlyer said:

Did T-Moible finally get its DAS system turned up in the LIRR tunnels? It has been literally years behind Verizon in getting this done and I've been pestering the NY Engineering & Ops director about it. It was supposed to go online in 2020, then 2021, then November 2022, then March 2023, then April, and last week he said finally it would be online end of this week. Can anyone confirm that its online through the whole tunnel?

Sounds like you nailed it. The coverage pattern on Cellmapper make its look like the signal is definitely coming from the tunnel that runs underneath Atlantic.

[wispiANt]

15 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

From what I've seen in some Ericsson PDFs the currently installed 22xx radios support LTE (FDD+TDD) and LAA alongside 5G via software update but I'm not certain what bandwidth on NR. The 44xx radios on the other hand support up to 6 LTE carriers (FDD+TDD) and up to 100MHz on NR but they don't support LAA.

In a previous post you mentioned that you saw 120MHz n41 on a small cell which makes me wonder how they managed to do that given the bandwidth constraints of the currently installed antennas. The small cells are also broadcasting LAA as far as I can tell.

 

 

There's a user on the Cellmapper Reddit who seems to be a tower/small cell tech here in NYC and he mentioned a while back that he hadn't seen any of the designs for the new T-Mobile 5G nodes yet. Hopefully he'll be able to provide some insight in the future.

My guess would be:
- 1x Micro Radio 2205 (LAA)
- 1x Micro Radio 4402 (B66)
- 1x Micro Radio 4402 (B2)
- 1x Micro Radio 4408 (B41)

Alternatively, they could use an AIR 4435 for B41 but that would likely necessitate the removal of the Micro Radio 2205 (as the 4435 is almost exactly the size of two Micro Radio units, as seen here). 

The 4408 supports an NR carrier bandwidth of up to 100MHz, but an IBW of up to 150MHz. So combinations of 100+20MHz or 100+40MHz should be possible.

The 4402 recieved NR certification earlier this month. Per the FCC documentation:

Quote

It supports channel bandwidths of 5 MHz for WCDMA, 200KHz for NB-IoT standalone, 1.4, 3, 5, 10, 15 and 20 MHz for LTE and 5,10,15,20,25,30,40MHz for NR.

[T-MoblieUser207]

6 hours ago, AirlineFlyer said:

Did T-Moible finally get its DAS system turned up in the LIRR tunnels? It has been literally years behind Verizon in getting this done and I've been pestering the NY Engineering & Ops director about it. It was supposed to go online in 2020, then 2021, then November 2022, then March 2023, then April, and last week he said finally it would be online end of this week. Can anyone confirm that its online through the whole tunnel?

5 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

Sounds like you nailed it. The coverage pattern on Cellmapper make its look like the signal is definitely coming from the tunnel that runs underneath Atlantic.

I took the LIRR from Jamaica to East New York Saturday, and there was no T-Mobile LTE in it then, only Verizon, and the eNB was found Friday. It's possible they turned on the Atlantic to Nostrand Avenue section only for now.

[Paynefanbro]

I also mapped a new AT&T eNB 112900 on July 20th and didn't know what it was so I left it unconfirmed. The cell numbers gave away that it was some sort of picocell on indoor DAS but I didn't know what for.

Given what you guys have said it's probably their LIRR tunnel DAS. It's located right where the line goes under Atlantic Ave headed toward East New York station. Seems that both AT&T and T-Mobile went live recently.

— — — — —

Also no idea if it's all 889xxx small cells in Long Island City but eNB 889940-1/11 is definitely broadcasting standalone n41. Got 519/98 with a 16ms ping while right next to it. Well in line with the performance of the small cells I saw in Downtown Brooklyn. This small cell first went live December 2022. It also had fantastic range too thanks to the omnidirectional antenna on top, though I have seen small cells without an omni-antenna have great range too like eNB ID 134824-6/16.

— — — — — 

C-band got widened to 80MHz on AT&T.

— — — — —

Also mapped a new oDAS node at Atlantic and 3rd Ave, eNB 478115-1/11. Probably has n41 and fills in a weak spot in coverage.

[T-MoblieUser207]

On 8/2/2023 at 11:42 AM, Paynefanbro said:

Given what you guys have said it's probably their LIRR tunnel DAS. It's located right where the line goes under Atlantic Ave headed toward East New York station. Seems that both AT&T and T-Mobile went live recently.

If T-Mobile is live in the tunnels, its either from East New York to Ralph Avenue portal, or Nostrand Avenue to Atlantic Terminal only. Rode the train yesterday and AT&T and Verizon are definitely live in the tunnel from East New York to Jamaica, but not T-Mobile. AT&T's eNB is 119900, Verizon's is 82320.

AT&T screenshot info:

 

Verizon's screenshots:

[PedroDaGr8]

On 7/24/2023 at 8:18 PM, Paynefanbro said:

Nice catch!

gNB 1347372 fits the bill. Each cell pretty matches up with an existing oDAS node in Downtown Brooklyn.

Cell 301 -> eNB 134687 Cell 1/11
Cell 303 -> eNB 134687 Cell 3/13
Cell 306 -> eNB 134688 Cell 6/16 (Importantly this small cell and the corresponding gNB were spotted two days apart confirming that they're the same site)

I believe that 347812-6 that I mapped in Brooklyn Heights may have n41 too. I reported really fast speeds and strong n41 signal next to it earlier this year but at the time I chalked it up to a nearby macro just performing really well. Maybe I was wrong about that. 

I'll have to check all of them out. This is big news!

This just explained some random sites that just appeared recently by the waterfront in downtown Seattle:

eNB 380915 Cell 5/15 (2/66) --> gNB 1883233 Cell 305 (n41)
eNB 380916 Cell 3/13 (2/66) --> gNB 1881902 Cell 303 (n41)

Unfortunately, nothing shows up on StreetView yet.

[Paynefanbro]

AT&T's jump to 80MHz has made them significantly more competitive with Verizon and T-Mobile citywide. I didn't realize how much they were being held back by their lack of midband. Before the clearing my fastest speed on their network was about 440Mbps with average speeds around 120Mbps. Now average speeds are in the 350-450Mbps range and peak speeds are over 700Mbps. I don't know if they massively increased backhaul alongside expanding C-band but kudos to AT&T nonetheless!

[Paynefanbro]

Verizon has been littering Staten Island with these mmWave small cells. I even saw some Altec workers installing one today. Rather than deploying them borough-wide, it seems like they're deploying them in hyperlocal areas. It's as if they target a specific neighborhood and then deploy dozens of them.

I also noticed that all of the Verizon installed nodes in Staten Island are mmWave only. The Extenet-installed small cells in the outer boroughs all have an LTE antenna on top at the very least and on rare occasion they'll install Samsung mmWave radios too. I wonder why they're opting to just do mmWave and not both?

Here are two pics I took today. It's like they're just slapping three antennas on a pole and calling it a day. Notably, there's no box on the side of the pole housing radio equipment like the cantenna sites in the other boroughs. Just a power meter and some labels.

[T-MoblieUser207]

Sprint eNB 15941 has finally been turned on, it's T-Mobile eNB 347833. It has the 6419, and it is also a gig+ site.

 

Also in this neighborhood, I didn't thoroughly test it, but I am guessing eNB 888835 which is 3 small cells (2 found, 1 not) are broadcasting n41. gNB 1324391 looks to be its match.

Another gig+ site has been added as well, eNB 55976.

[T-MoblieUser207]

On 5/22/2022 at 8:00 PM, Paynefanbro said:

AT&T eNB 116408 / T-Mobile eNB 42887. This one is interesting not only because of the AT&T C-band but because T-Mobile upgraded this site without installing any Massive MIMO n41 antennas. There are just two of the RFS antennas that we normally get. It seems like there just isn't enough space on the rack for three antennas. Maybe sometime in the future they'll modify the actual antenna rack so that more can be added.

Pre-upgrade the site was Band 2/12/66 with 2x2 MIMO across all bands. Now it's Band 2/12/66/71 with 4x4MIMO across all bands so the people in the area are still receiving a decent boost in capacity and speeds.

T-Mobile upgraded this site with a 6419. I was passing by this site today and there is 3 panels up there now.

[Paynefanbro]

On 8/1/2023 at 6:03 PM, T-MoblieUser207 said:

I took the LIRR from Jamaica to East New York Saturday, and there was no T-Mobile LTE in it then, only Verizon, and the eNB was found Friday. It's possible they turned on the Atlantic to Nostrand Avenue section only for now.

Looks like you and another user mapped a new eNB 435763 right by East New York Ave station at the end of July. There's even two PCS cells mapped, Cell 11 is near Atlantic Ave and Dewey Place where the line goes under Atlantic, and Cell 12 is right by the East New York Ave stop. So it seems like the tunnel DAS is active from the Barclays Center to East New York Ave.

— — — — —

Three more keep sites:

1. Sprint eNB 5888 -> T-Mobile eNB 894509
   1. Located at (40.626123308302006, -73.93491164383306)
   2. This site was converted but not live for a while.
   3. T-Mobile eNB 41387 got decommissioned in favor of this new Sprint conversion, likely because the new site is on a much taller building and provides significantly better coverage in the area.
       
2. Sprint eNB 7068/7069 -> T-Mobile eNB 875919
   1. Located at (40.777295261569435, -73.96188129012455)
       
3. Sprint eNB 79419-> T-Mobile eNB 310769
   1. Located at: (40.77597793649145, -73.96063612433635)
   2. What makes this site stand out is that it's one of those mini-macros like the Grimaldi's site in Dumbo. It’s the first conversion I’ve seen with those kind of antennas.
       
4. Sprint eNB 73984 -> T-Mobile eNB 347835
   1. Located at: (40.66576415487458, -73.80671119247368)
   2. T-Mobile eNB 56209/56759 got decommissioned in favor of this Sprint conversion. This eNB was on the building next door to the new site.

— — — — —

T-Mobile eNB 128752-2/12 (small cell) is also broadcasting n41. I'm getting those characteristic 500Mbps speeds and super low ping. This time it was 11ms.

[Paynefanbro]

A bunch more gig+ sites. All of these sites I received 980-1.3Gbps on.

1. T-Mobile eNB 41049
   1. Located at 1087 Carroll St, Brooklyn, NY 11225
      (40.667658796370766, -73.95374354474157)
2. T-Mobile eNB 40134
   1. Located at 80 Hanson Pl, Brooklyn, NY 11217
      (40.68527685550247, -73.97444104502252)
3. T-Mobile eNB 41151
   1. Located at 77 Greenwich Ave, New York, NY 10014
      (40.73672993463041, -74.00145695280355)
4. T-Mobile eNB 310770
   1. Located at 17 E 84th St, New York, NY 10028
      (40.77991952641031, -73.96002308225343)
5. T-Mobile eNB 51834
   1. Located at 200 W 14th St, New York, NY 10011
      (40.73853707658754, -74.00009990838936)
6. T-Mobile eNB 49157
   1. Located at 9201 Flatlands Ave, Brooklyn, NY 11236
      (40.64133977316714, -73.90469983135205)
7.  T-Mobile eNB 56030
   1. Located at 1149 Putnam Ave, Brooklyn, NY 11221
      (40.689799813485784, -73.91743043696097)
8. T-Mobile eNB 44201
   1. Located at 1028 Bushwick Ave, Brooklyn, NY 11221
      (40.69099137713572, -73.92141905647789)

[Paynefanbro]

Forgot to mention it a while back but I came across a couple of T-Mobile eNBs in the Bronx that are small cell upgrades. For example, eNB 127340-14 is a small cell that was first mapped in 2021 but was actually installed back in 2008. It initially was one of those weird small cells where multiple nodes share a single cell number but after getting upgraded T-Mobile gave it its own eNB ID. 

— — — — —

Anyone know what all of those weird eNBs all over Randall's Island are? My phone keeps picking them up when going over the Triborough going toward the Bronx or Manhattan. They have really weird cell IDs so I'm thinking it's a DAS at Icahn Stadium. If I'm right it looks like there may have been some upgrades recently that are spawning some new 3318xx nodes there. Maybe 5G like the upgrades at Yankee Stadium since those also spawned new 2xxxxx and 3xxxxx eNBs.

Same deal by Arthur Ashe Stadium in Queens. Looks like T-Mobile hopped on whatever private oDAS is installed there because I mapped some nodes while driving on the Grand Central Parkway. They're collocated with the AT&T eNBs in the same area on Cellmapper. 

Nice to see T-Mobile silently doing lots of capacity upgrades at stadiums in the region after ignoring them for so long. They really need to work on Citi Field though.

[RAvirani]

On 8/27/2023 at 8:35 PM, Paynefanbro said:

Same deal by Arthur Ashe Stadium in Queens. Looks like T-Mobile hopped on whatever private oDAS is installed there because I mapped some nodes while driving on the Grand Central Parkway. They're collocated with the AT&T eNBs in the same area on Cellmapper. 

I’ll be at Arthur Ashe for the US Open next week. Last year the service was abysmal; hopefully it’s better this year. 

[Paynefanbro]

Turns out the new 5G small cells can be pretty fast. This one is eNB 478115-1/11 that I mentioned a couple of weeks back and just went live at the beginning of the month. I thought T-Mobile was capping backhaul on small cells so that they peak around 600Mbps but this one has way more backhaul. 

[AirlineFlyer]

Looks like oDAS franchises other than Verizon are putting identification stickers on their new gen units.