Network Vision/LTE - New York City Market

[Paynefanbro]

13 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

Sascha Segan from PC Mag has been running around Queens trying to find it and did connect in one spot it looks like.

Looks like he released his article: https://www.pcmag.com/news/testing-verizon-c-band-in-new-york-city-range-speed-and-more

Quote

I ended up being able to use C-Band only on sites in Forest Hills and Kew Gardens.

There may be some technical shenanigans going on where connections are still being blocked on many built-out sites.

In East Harlem, I found sites at 108th St and 1st Avenue and 120th St and 1st Avenue that Milan Milanovic, Ookla's technical analyst, visually identified as having C-Band equipment. But my phone steadfastly refused to connect to C-Band there.

At those sites, my phone would first connect to millimeter-wave, which makes sense—millimeter-wave is even faster than C-Band. But out of millimeter-wave range, or with mmWave turned off on the test phone, it absolutely, positively, would not connect to C-Band. Verizon appears to be blocking access.

— — — — —

Splitting our tests between their 4G and 5G components, we found that in T-Mobile's tests, 75% of the speed came from 5G, while in Verizon's tests, 45-55% came from 5G. Just for whatever reason, each megahertz of Verizon's was slower than a megahertz of T-Mobile's—something the bigger carrier is surely working on optimizing.

Also, there was just something ... a little fishy about some of our tests. A bunch of our C-Band results in Kew Gardens all congregated around 140Mbps down in a way that makes me think it was a configuration issue or cap, not the capability of the network.

[T-MoblieUser207]

On 1/16/2022 at 5:28 PM, Paynefanbro said:

Got around to confirming a bunch of sites on @T-MoblieUser207's keep site map.

Thank you very much! Added and modified all of them.

On 1/16/2022 at 5:28 PM, Paynefanbro said:

Edit: Also wanted to add that n41 in southern Brooklyn is still at 40MHz and Sprint's Band 41 is at 15MHz. I'm not sure what T-Mobile's Band 41 is running at unfortunately.

Sprint should be 15(2599)+10(2645.8) unless things have changed. The 10 MHz is hard to map since they try to keep devices off the 10 MHz. T-Mo B41 is the same 2538.2 found "citywide" (Staten Island is the only one different, 2680 instead), with only one tower in the 40 MHz NR area so far with 2xB41, eNB 131646.

[T-MoblieUser207]

13 hours ago, AirlineFlyer said:

For all the hemming and hawing Verizon did about how dire the need for C-band spectrum is they really didn't seem to focus on NYC, like, at all. It's really weird. I guess they are content with the service delivery as it is for the time being. Why rush to 500 Mbps when 100 Mbps is fine.

 

8 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

Looks like he released his article: https://www.pcmag.com/news/testing-verizon-c-band-in-new-york-city-range-speed-and-more

From the way I see so many C-band panels up around Brooklyn, I would have thought it would be very easy to find and connect to it in any part of NYC. Really surprised everyone is having so much trouble finding C-band live.

Edited January 21, 2022 by T-MoblieUser207

[PedroDaGr8]

Not sure if this is on your list but someone at /r/CellMapper indicated the tower at 2080 1st Avenue NY NY 10029 is gig+

https://www.reddit.com/r/cellmapper/comments/s8poyo/n41_speeds_at_home_and_no_ca_isnt_on_not_bad_for/?sort=confidence

[T-MoblieUser207]

15 hours ago, PedroDaGr8 said:

Not sure if this is on your list but someone at /r/CellMapper indicated the tower at 2080 1st Avenue NY NY 10029 is gig+

https://www.reddit.com/r/cellmapper/comments/s8poyo/n41_speeds_at_home_and_no_ca_isnt_on_not_bad_for/?sort=confidence

Thanks! Seems like the Upper East Side is a gold mine for gig+ towers just like the East Village is, as this isn't the first tower they posted, I have 1 previously from them. I may need to plan a trip there soon to add some more, as speedtests seem to be whitelisted again, as I should have hit my deprioritization cap already.

 

On 1/20/2022 at 3:20 PM, Paynefanbro said:

Looks like he released his article: https://www.pcmag.com/news/testing-verizon-c-band-in-new-york-city-range-speed-and-more

The article has been updated, and Segan found some C-band in Bed-Stuy and Cypress Hills neighborhoods. I don't know the towers in Cypress Hills, but for Bed-Stuy the eNBs are most likely 81272 and 81408. 81408 is the one I know has it, as I walked past it and saw the panel when I was trying to locate T-Mo eNB 128069. First and last time I tower hunt at dusk/night lmao.

[Paynefanbro]

One more site confirmed from the map, eNB 894967 located at 40.6817830451255, -73.90405504592015

Looks like Google Street View last drove by in December 2021 and it's all T-Mobile gear now.

Before:

 

After: 

[T-MoblieUser207]

15 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

One more site confirmed from the map, eNB 894967 located at 40.6817830451255, -73.90405504592015

Looks like Google Street View last drove by in December 2021 and it's all T-Mobile gear now.

This convert site is funny to me. T-Mobile reserved a pole at this same intersection for a small cell in Dec 2017, finally installed it in July 2020, only for the small cell to be planned for decommissioning a little less than 1 and a half years later thanks to a convert site.

It looks like the roof was rebuilt/re-enforced for the new setup too. The roof line is a little higher at the front of the building with new bricks.

[wispiANt]

https://www.pcmag.com/news/exclusive-we-found-t-mobiles-secret-weapon-against-c-band

Seems like he's seeing:

B2+B66 +n41+n41
n71+n41

Not that it really matters, I suppose:

Quote

Looking at how my traffic divided between frequencies, I found that some of my transmissions didn't send any data over the second carrier. Two speed tests sent a little bit of data over the second carrier.

That might be the usual configuration issues, but it might also just be the fact that my tests weren't even saturating the first 5G channel; I'm pretty sure my speed was being limited by the capacity of the tower, not of the airwaves.

 

[Paynefanbro]

14 hours ago, thisischuck01 said:

https://www.pcmag.com/news/exclusive-we-found-t-mobiles-secret-weapon-against-c-band

Seems like he's seeing:

B2+B66 +n41+n41
n71+n41

Not that it really matters, I suppose:

 

I did spot some NRCA in Crown Heights last weekend. Sadly because I'm using an iPhone I can't see the exact carrier combo but it did report that it was seeing 2 NR carriers. At first I thought it was a glitch or some weird stale data because my phone was still reporting NSA 5G and the primary NR carrier was the 80MHz n41 carrier but reading Sascha's article it's quite possible that my phone was using B2+B66+n41+n41. 

— — — — —

On another note, it looks like someone found n5+n77+B2+B66 on Verizon: 

Edit: 

Two more confirmed locations of conversion sites: 

1. T-Mobile eNB 875316
   Location: 40.7314623618499, -73.82849493999701
    
2. T-Mobile eNB 875868
   Location: 40.75304305996773, -73.85311593221213

[AirlineFlyer]

7 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

I did spot some NRCA in Crown Heights last weekend. Sadly because I'm using an iPhone I can't see the exact carrier combo but it did report that it was seeing 2 NR carriers. At first I thought it was a glitch or some weird stale data because my phone was still reporting NSA 5G and the primary NR carrier was the 80MHz n41 carrier but reading Sascha's article it's quite possible that my phone was using B2+B66 +n41+n41. 

— — — — —

On another note, it looks like someone found n5+n77+B2+B66 on Verizon: 

Edit: 

Two more confirmed locations of conversion sites: 

1. T-Mobile eNB 875316
   Location: 40.7314623618499, -73.82849493999701
    
2. T-Mobile eNB 875868
   Location: 40.75304305996773, -73.85311593221213

Looks like eNB 875868 was a high capacity Sprint site with a sector pointing at Citi Field. Wonder what T-Mobile does with it. 
 

[wispiANt]

Another keep site in downtown Brooklyn (DOB Job# B00464934):

96 Schermerhorn St

T-Mobile eNBs 875823/875821

Sprint eNB 5854

[Paynefanbro]

On 1/16/2022 at 2:11 PM, thisischuck01 said:

Crunching the numbers a bit more, covering the full MSA would result in slightly under 80% population coverage. But they'd have to deploy on essentially every micro/macro cell in the area.

 

Yeah, I'm not gonna pretend like I know how either negotiations with squatters or Auction 108 will pan out. That said, I can't see 3.45GHz being *that* valuable to squatters considering the strict buildout requirements. 

Another interesting thought I had was a possible spectrum trade with Dish. Dish is still leasing 600MHz to T-Mobile in quite a few metro areas, and I'm sure T-Mobile is looking ahead to what their lowband spectrum situation will be once those leases expire. If T-Mobile is truly going to rely on n71+n41 CA as much as they say they will, it sure would be nice to be working with more than 5MHz-10MHz of n71 uplink capacity.

Don't go quoting me on that, though, total (pipedream) speculation haha.

Neville confirmed that C-band deployment is gonna start in 2023 and they're looking to use a single antenna for both their Auction 107 and Auction 110 spectrum.

https://www.fiercewireless.com/5g/t-mobile-eyes-345-ghz-c-band-one-and-done-rollout

[wispiANt]

57 minutes ago, Paynefanbro said:

Neville confirmed that C-band deployment is gonna start in 2023 and they're looking to use a single antenna for both their Auction 107 and Auction 110 spectrum.

https://www.fiercewireless.com/5g/t-mobile-eyes-345-ghz-c-band-one-and-done-rollout

Yeah, I saw that.

Ericsson's official statement to the FCC was that implementation of a two-step OOBE limit on 3.45GHz (instead of the single -13 dBm/MHz OOBE limit applied to 3.7GHz) "would prevent development of a single radio in the U.S. across the 3.45 GHz and the 3.7 GHz band, requiring development of two U.S.-specific radios" (source). 

Nokia's statement was that designing hardware around a two-step OOBE limit was doable (without indicating if they could design a radio to support both 3.45GHz and 3.7GHz). 

So I'm not really sure how Neville is going to achieve that.

[T-MoblieUser207]

On 1/24/2022 at 10:43 AM, thisischuck01 said:

https://www.pcmag.com/news/exclusive-we-found-t-mobiles-secret-weapon-against-c-band

Seems like he's seeing:

B2+B66 +n41+n41
n71+n41

While the article was updated to say Segan didn't find n41+n41 only n71+n41, I think T-Mobile has it planned anyway, as I found 20 MHz n41 in Brooklyn. I was looking for where eNBs 891645/891646 are to locate them, and stumbled upon on it. Didn't have enough time to circle back and find out where it is coming from, as the PCI matches the B41 cell found on 891646. What I find strange though is why they would do 80+20 when they could do 100+20 while Sprint B41 is still active along with their own B41. Probably will have to wait until June for 100 MHz n41.

--

For eNB 41177, I passed by the area and I didn't see any panels on top of the buildings, so I restored its location, but its been located back. Is there something I'm missing? T-Mobile has blanketed the area with small cells, and I think this eNB is part of it, but don't have enough data to be certain.

Starrett City

T-Mobile has had fun in Starrett City. Not only are all sites upgraded with n41, they also converted a Sprint site there. From the north going south:

eNB 49434 not only got the full setup, but they also added an AIR 3246 to the site.

 

New convert site: eNB 875360. I was excepting this once I first saw it, especially since Sprint eNB 73854 over in Canarsie is being kept. Not sure what the 4th panel is, and I don't think the pic I took is helpful.

On 1/22/2022 at 1:47 AM, Paynefanbro said:

One more site confirmed from the map, eNB 894967 located at 40.6817830451255, -73.90405504592015

Looks like Google Street View last drove by in December 2021 and it's all T-Mobile gear now.

I went and visited this site, and the downtilt is extreme for the 6449 panel on the 3rd sector that the Google car didn't catch. I'm surprised they even did a 3rd sector, with how close the site is to the others nearby.

I took a trip up to the Bronx and added a few towers/splits to the map. I still haven't fully gone through all the data I added yet, but I know I found a few convert sites. Also, if anyone is looking for T-Mobile CBRS to speedtest/check out, the Morrisana neighborhood is the hotspot for it. In addition to the tower Chuck located, the surrounding eNBs 53408, 53747, and 41098 have the CBRS panel up.

[wispiANt]

13 minutes ago, T-MoblieUser207 said:

For eNB 41177, I passed by the area and I didn't see any panels on top of the buildings, so I restored its location, but its been located back. Is there something I'm missing? T-Mobile has blanketed the area with small cells, and I think this eNB is part of it, but don't have enough data to be certain.

There's a T-Mobile site on the building, DOB Job #320012008. Hard to link to the old DOB permit site but here's the job description:

"CREATING TELECOMMUNICATIONS ROOM WITH RELATED HVAC ON 1ST FLR AND CONDENSER ON ROOF RELATED ANTENNAS MOUNTED TO FACADE OF BUILDING"

And proof that it's T-Mobile:

27 minutes ago, T-MoblieUser207 said:

eNB 49434 not only got the full setup, but they also added an AIR 3246 to the site.

Great pics! Nice to see continued sector-splits.

 

28 minutes ago, T-MoblieUser207 said:

New convert site: eNB 875360. I was excepting this once I first saw it, especially since Sprint eNB 73854 over in Canarsie is being kept. Not sure what the 4th panel is, and I don't think the pic I took is helpful.

I think this might be a leftover Sprint antenna? Hard to tell but it kinda looks like what was there the last time Streetview rolled through.

 

29 minutes ago, T-MoblieUser207 said:

Lol, what the hell. Love this density but this just looks busted.
 

32 minutes ago, T-MoblieUser207 said:

I took a trip up to the Bronx and added a few towers/splits to the map. I still haven't fully gone through all the data I added yet, but I know I found a few convert sites. Also, if anyone is looking for T-Mobile CBRS to speedtest/check out, the Morrisana neighborhood is the hotspot for it. In addition to the tower Chuck located, the surrounding eNBs 53408, 53747, and 41098 have the CBRS panel up.

Surprised to see T-Mobile decided to invest in deploying the spectrum! Pull any good speeds or are they all backhaul limited?

[T-MoblieUser207]

9 hours ago, thisischuck01 said:

There's a T-Mobile site on the building, DOB Job #320012008. Hard to link to the old DOB permit site but here's the job description:

"CREATING TELECOMMUNICATIONS ROOM WITH RELATED HVAC ON 1ST FLR AND CONDENSER ON ROOF RELATED ANTENNAS MOUNTED TO FACADE OF BUILDING"

Ah, it's in the facade of the building, thanks! I'll leave it alone. 

9 hours ago, thisischuck01 said:

I think this might be a leftover Sprint antenna? Hard to tell but it kinda looks like what was there the last time Streetview rolled through.

Definitely a possibility, you said the same thing for a picture of eNB 894640. Both sites have all bands expect 41 under 1 eNB, so it is probably a pattern. 

9 hours ago, thisischuck01 said:

Surprised to see T-Mobile decided to invest in deploying the spectrum! Pull any good speeds or are they all backhaul limited?

I don't have a CBRS capable device, so I don't know how the speeds are. I spotted the panel from the window of the bus, and a quick Google street view scan made me realize it was a neighborhood buildout, as if you go too far north or south the towers don't have the panel, only the 6449. I would expect 1G+ backhaul, as the tower in Manhattan with CBRS is a 1G+ site, but I have no idea. 

[Paynefanbro]

Not literally NYC but it's part of the NYC market, I just found a new T-Mobile site in Tenafly, NJ. Looks like it's a stealth site on top of a condo. It was built out sometime in Spring 2021 but it seems that it first went live in late summer. Immediately got all bands 2/12/41/66/71 and n41/n71.

eNB 891761/891809

Before (2019):

After (2021):

[T-MoblieUser207]

Going through the data that I mapped, I found plenty of convert sites.

T-Mobile eNBs 894574/894577 are from a convert site, located at 643 Cauldwell Avenue.

T-Mobile eNBs 895003/895005/895006 are definitely from a convert site, but I only mapped one sector. I think its the 1116 Tinton Avenue Sprint site, but it needs more data.

T-Mobile eNBs 889284/889288/899289 are from Sprint eNB 75262. The city's streetview car caught it in August 2021. 

T-Mobile eNBs 895031/895032 are most likely from the Sprint site on top of 1501 Allerton Avenue. RSRP is quite low, so I doubt it's anywhere else.

T-Mobile eNBs 895008/895011 I think are from the site at 719 East 233rd Street, but it needs more data.

T-Mobile eNBs 894570/894572/894573 are most likely from the site on top of 2750 Olinville Avenue. The Google streetview car seems to have caught it in November 2021, but I'm not 100% sure about it. The 2nd panel from the right looks like a 6449. I realize my devices made a mess of the cells, so the data up isn't helpful. I think the location that oldsoulbenny located those Sprint eNBs is an AT&T site, not Sprint. Really weird uptilt on this sector, sometime in between August and October 2019 the change was made.

Something is strange about Sprint eNB 838411. The train was moving when my J5 roamed onto it, so I screenshotted Cellmapper as by the time I went to service mode, the device handed off. I'm not 100% sure its a 312-250 macro/small cell, but if it is being kept, its using the same spectrum T-Mobile towers are using for LTE, which usually doesn't happen. I have held off on adding a pin for it, as I need more data for it first.

--

In the Bronx, I think I found 3 sites where B41 was on 311-940 instead of 310-120. The Cell organization is totally different from the usual on 310-120, so that's fun.

The small cell in front of eNB 894588 is still live, quite amusing to watch my device flip between the tower and the small cell to anchor n41. It has been 2 months since the converted site has gone live, no need to shut down the small cell yet, it still serves a valid purpose lol.

I'll need to double check, but B2 seems to be widened to 20 MHz on the subway DAS at one station, 125th St/Lex (4,5,6 trains).

Verizon eNB 81005 has a small little panel next to its C-band panel, anyone have an idea what it is for?

Edited February 9, 2022 by T-MoblieUser207
typos and a broken link

[wispiANt]

9 hours ago, T-MoblieUser207 said:

I'll need to double check, but B2 seems to be widened to 20 MHz on the subway DAS at one station, 125th St/Lex (4,5,6 trains).

Also widened to 20MHz at 59th St, 42nd St, and 34th St on the Blue line. Widened to 15MHz at 14th St - Union Sq.

 

9 hours ago, T-MoblieUser207 said:

Verizon eNB 81005 has a small little panel next to its C-band panel, anyone have an idea what it is for?

Checking Streetview, this his been up since 2016. First thought was backhaul, but there are no records of backhaul to that building. Second thought was LAA, but Verizon didn't start deploying LAA until late 2017. So this actually might be LTE-U, which they started deploying in late 2015.

[Paynefanbro]

Those horribly large Link5G kiosks got approved recently with a bunch of caveats.

1. Links with ads can't be deployed in residential areas, only in commercial or industrial areas.
2. Only one Link is permitted to be installed per block, and only on one side of the street per block.
3. All Link kiosks must be at least 50 feet apart.
4. Landmarks Preservation Commission must review any site in a historic district.
5. They can't be installed parallel to any landmarked site.

According to the slideshow that they gave when proposing the design, each Link5G pole has 5 equipment bays. Two that are strictly for mmWave, two that can either be used for mmWave or for LTE & sub-6GHz 5G, and the remaining bay is for WiFi. As a result, a single Link5G can have up to 4 carriers.

For a bunch of cool renderings of what they look like on the street, technical details of what inside of the pole looks like, and even a heat map of WiFi coverage in southern Crown Heights before and after their installation, check out the slideshow here:

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/designcommission/downloads/pdf/10-18-2021-pres-DoITT-p-Link-5G.pdf

Deployment starts this summer, mostly focusing on the outer boroughs.

 

[AirlineFlyer]

11 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

Apparently those horribly large Link5G kiosks got approved recently with a bunch of caveats.

1. Links with ads can't be deployed in residential areas, only in commercial or industrial areas.
2. Only one Link is permitted to be installed per block, and only on one side of the street per block.
3. All Link kiosks must be at least 50 feet apart.
4. Landmarks Preservation Commission must review any site in a historic district.
5. They can't be installed parallel to any landmarked site.

According to the slideshow that they gave when proposing the design, each Link5G pole has 5 equipment bays. Two that are strictly for mmWave, two that can either be used for mmWave or for LTE & sub-6GHz 5G, and the remaining bay is for WiFi. As a result, a single Link5G can have up to 4 carriers.

For a bunch of cool renderings of what they look like on the street, technical details of what inside of the pole looks like, and even a heat map of WiFi coverage in southern Crown Heights before and after their installation, check out the slideshow here:

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/designcommission/downloads/pdf/10-18-2021-pres-DoITT-p-Link-5G.pdf

Deployment starts this summer, mostly focusing on the outer boroughs.

 

I think all of those restrictions are fair and necessary. There are parts of Manhattan with four or five Links on a single block, it's crazy. And these 5G Links are stupidly ugly, so the fewer the better. It's nuts that we can't just string up some mmWave antennas on existing poles like Verizon is doing in so many cities. They're really unintrusive.

[wispiANt]

God, they're so ugly. I can't believe they were approved with such minor changes (though I do like the new floating screen design). I would so much rather have a couple single/multi-tenant streetlight deployments on each corner.

The expected coverage map is pretty cool, but it's a bit of a bummer that you'll see these things everywhere and Wi-Fi coverage will still be total garbage.

[Paynefanbro]

I definitely prefer the multi-tenant design that they approved for existing streetlights. The only place where I can understand installing them is the example given of Flatbush Avenue where they claim that structural issues with existing streetlights means that they can't install the "normal" small cells on them. Something is better than nothing.

Aesthetics aside, the real benefit of them though is just how many different carriers and technologies each Link can host. I don't see Dish using small cells in the near term but I wouldn't be too surprised if Verizon, AT&T, and T-Mobile (via Crown Castle) each ink a deal that allows them to deploy on every single Link5G that's installed going forward.

[Paynefanbro]

Another Sprint site in Brooklyn broadcasting the keep PLMN.

eNB 253900, location 40.66432483591824, -73.97744767278391.

— — — — — —

Also I was in Sunset Park around 57th St and 5th Avenue where n41 is still at 40MHz and speeds were a lot slower in comparison to other parts of the city, even areas that are also at 40MHz like Coney Island. However I don't think it's a capacity problem as much as it's a backhaul problem. Pings were consistently 12-13ms but speeds were 110-130Mbps down and 25-50Mbps up.

[dkyeager]

They remind me of Sprint's first failed effort with "small" cells that were 130ft tall on public rights of way.  I think there are 5 left in Ohio. Same design at the top. Much more reasonable in size. Public wi-fi and kiosk should help with acceptance. Hopefully they also use wi-fi 6e to send a chance of providing usable signal. Wonder how the kiosks will stand up to vandalism or just regular use.