Network Vision/LTE - New York City Market

[RAvirani]

1 hour ago, thisischuck01 said:

I believe there was some conjecture regarding this antenna (FFVV-65A-R2-V1) being used on sites with a height and/or weight limitation. 

Weight limitation is a super common reason for using smaller antennas, however it doesn’t look like there is a weight limitation on this setup since it is on a rooftop. Weight limitations are much more common on utility poles, tall pipe mounts, etc.

Another possible reason for the shorter antenna is site density. Using a higher-gain antenna can cause sector overlap (i.e. degradation of SNR and increased noise floor) if neighboring sites are close by. You can usually use a combo of mech/etilt to control the range of these higher-gain antennas, but that sometimes causes problems with vertical coverage. These problems are especially bad on sites with higher RAD centers as you’re effectively pointing the already-narrow beam into the ground. We run into these issues a lot in urban RF planning…

[wispiANt]

1 hour ago, RAvirani said:

Weight limitation is a super common reason for using smaller antennas, however it doesn’t look like there is a weight limitation on this setup since it is on a rooftop. Weight limitations are much more common on utility poles, tall pipe mounts, etc.

Ah, gotcha. I suppose I was under the impression that dead/transient roof load, even on commercial buildings, was more of a concern. At first look, the other site this antenna is deployed does look to be a situation where weight might be an issue - the RRUs weren't even roof-mounted until 2019. But the DOB does not make structural analysis public (at least through their permit portal), so that is nothing more than conjecture and armchair engineering.

 

1 hour ago, RAvirani said:

Another possible reason for the shorter antenna is site density. Using a higher-gain antenna can cause sector overlap (i.e. degradation of SNR and increased noise floor) if neighboring sites are close by. You can usually use a combo of mech/etilt to control the range of these higher-gain antennas, but that sometimes causes problems with vertical coverage. These problems are especially bad on sites with higher RAD centers as you’re effectively pointing the already-narrow beam into the ground. We run into these issues a lot in urban RF planning…

Definitely. That said, at least in NYC, T-Mobile has been pretty adamant about deploying their typical config - no matter how ridiculous site density may be (sites 250ft apart, for example). So when they do take a different approach, my first thought is "there had to be a reason why they were unable to opt for their typical config". Not "T-Mobile is finally taking notice of their SNR", ha

[Paynefanbro]

More confirmations incoming!

1. T-Mobile eNB 880561 (40.74176835140717, -73.88364207139453)
   
   
    
2. Sprint eNB 6191 / T-Mobile eNB 880065 (40.71339007010928, -73.85695387371624)
   1. Confirmed this site but was unable to get a photo because the antennas are set back from the edge of the building. I could see them from super far away but there wasn't a good area for me to pull over and snap a pic.
       
3. Sprint eNB 6189 / T-Mobile eNB 877995 (40.71183894845567, -73.83529788316665)
   
   
    
4. Sprint eNB 253741 / T-Mobile eNB 875537/875538 (40.70170960850086,-73.83302208208359)
   
   
    
5. Sprint eNB 79912 / T-Mobile eNB 875989 (40.86349197342981, -73.923456682535)
   
   

— — — — —

T-Mobile eNB 880536 in the Bronx isn't a Sprint conversion, instead it looks like T-Mobile changed the eNB ID when they upgraded the site. The nearest Sprint site at 40.8150405321864, -73.93010756429787 still has all of its antennas up and is literally within spitting distance of two other T-Mobile sites in an area that's very industrial as opposed to residential or commercial so a keep site isn't particularly necessary. You can see on Cellmapper that the old eNB stopped broadcasting about two days after the new eNB went live.

 — — — — —

Also wanted to add that I spotted AT&T C-band antennas quite a bit in both Queens and the Bronx. I would expect a summer C-band launch announcement from them because they're moving FAST. At least in my area, it seem like they're upgrading at a similar, if not faster pace compared to Verizon.

Pics incoming!

AT&T eNB 116408 / T-Mobile eNB 42887. This one is interesting not only because of the AT&T C-band but because T-Mobile upgraded this site without installing any Massive MIMO n41 antennas. There are just two of the RFS antennas that we normally get. It seems like there just isn't enough space on the rack for three antennas. Maybe sometime in the future they'll modify the actual antenna rack so that more can be added.

Pre-upgrade the site was Band 2/12/66 with 2x2 MIMO across all bands. Now it's Band 2/12/66/71 with 4x4MIMO across all bands so the people in the area are still receiving a decent boost in capacity and speeds.

 

AT&T eNB 112047, bad pic but the arrows on the billboard are pointing right at the C-band antenna lol

 

— — — — —

Last edit I promise:

I noticed T-Mobile submit a permit to convert the keep site I found in Staten Island (Sprint eNB 75141). I 100% guessed it's location since I connected to it literally 4.5 miles across the water while inside a building. Glad to see I was right!

[wispiANt]

Another converted keep site:

Sprint eNB 9436 -> T-Mobile eNB 895067 (40.60777246698788,-74.16199692361377)

Looks like they're using the FFVV-65A-R2-V1 here, as well!

 

Edit:

Also, I know this technically isn't NYC, but here's a Jersey City conversion. Not 100% sure on either eNB.

Sprint eNB 105863 -> T-Mobile eNB 876452 (40.72265196811989,-74.08804945021805)

[T-MoblieUser207]

Added/modified all sites, and here is a view at the current totals:

 

10 hours ago, thisischuck01 said:

Also, I know this technically isn't NYC, but here's a Jersey City conversion. Not 100% sure on either eNB.

Speaking of Jersey, I have wondered if Newark fall under the Central or Northern NJ, since there is a 2 separate threads for New Jersey. T-Mobile eNB 893356 is another NJ keep site, and there are a quite a few others along the NEC.

I have thought of adding NJ info to the map, but I would like some opinions on it first.

[Paynefanbro]

4 hours ago, T-MoblieUser207 said:

Added/modified all sites, and here is a view at the current totals:

 

Speaking of Jersey, I have wondered if Newark fall under the Central or Northern NJ, since there is a 2 separate threads for New Jersey. T-Mobile eNB 893356 is another NJ keep site, and there are a quite a few others along the NEC.

I have thought of adding NJ info to the map, but I would like some opinions on it first.

Both Jersey City and Newark are part of the North Jersey market but I think it’s fair to add them to the map considering that they’re closer to NYC than some of the keep sites that actually are part of the NYC market like the one I found in Middletown. 

Edit:

While we're at it, here are 3 keep sites in the North Jersey market I found: 

1. T-Mobile eNB 894946 (40.76025066066227, -74.02319905031857)
2. T-Mobile eNB 874734 (40.88430199578836, -74.0689136045038)
3. T-Mobile eNB 875135 (40.87580324171812, -74.06612743737007)

— — — — —

Also found a new-build in Tenafly a while back but I don't know if we want to keep track of those too.

T-Mobile eNB 891761 (40.92481567639597, -73.96686971744198)

[wispiANt]

Spotted a handful of new oDAS nodes in Bushwick yesterday.

In order of appearance:

1. Madison St between Broadway and Bushwick Ave (40.6885471, -73.9193988). Mobilitie II.
2. Corner of Evergreen Ave and Putnam Ave (40.6907846, -73.9162553). ExteNet I.
3. Corner of Myrtle Ave and Stockholm St (40.6981186, 73.9240539). ExteNet I.

Didn't stop to double-check who they might be, but I was mapping AT&T LTE and T-Mobile LTE at the time so if they're live and either of those carriers they should show up on CellMapper. Though my assumption is that they're both VZW mmWave.

[Paynefanbro]

Saw a new Extenet small cell in Cobble Hill on Van Brunt but didn't stop for a pic.

I also saw this Extenet small cell while driving through Ridgewood two weeks ago.

 

I also visited the Mobilitie small cell in Harlem that was posted on Reddit over a month ago but didn't get anything from T-Mobile so I'm not certain who is on it or if it's even live. 

[AirlineFlyer]

AT&T is definitely getting going with C-band upgrades in NYC. In the last month the site on Hicks St at Clark St in Brooklyn Heights has had new antennas added. The site still isn’t on Cellmapper so I don’t know the eNB.

[AirlineFlyer]

Just barely over the NYC border in Valley Stream LI a T-Mobile tower that once has T-Mobile up top, MetroPCS in the middle, and Clearwire converted to Sprint below has recently has the Sprint equipment removed. Yet for some reason the Metro equipment remains in place. Sorry about the bad night shot.

 

Back in 2020:

[dkyeager]

5 hours ago, AirlineFlyer said:

Just barely over the NYC border in Valley Stream LI a T-Mobile tower that once has T-Mobile up top, MetroPCS in the middle, and Clearwire converted to Sprint below has recently has the Sprint equipment removed. Yet for some reason the Metro equipment remains in place. Sorry about the bad night shot.

 

Back in 2020:

Sometimes the tower management firm wants the old equipment left in place.  Reportedly makes it easier to get future tenants through zoning approval (upgrade rather than new). Sometimes the mounts are reused. This is at least what several managers of Crown Castle and American Tower have told me.  I have a naked monopole tower near me. It is a strange sight.

[wispiANt]

I feel like something is missing...

Spotted two more oDAS nodes in Williamsburg.

1. (Pictured) Corner of Graham and Boerum (40.7062348, -73.9431029). Extenet II.
2. (Not Pictured) Havemeyer St, between S 3rd and S 2nd (40.7111516, -73.9578876). Extenet II.

AT&T has an LTE-only node a half block away from the first sighting and an application in for a new node about a block away from the second node (under New Cingular). So guessing both of these are, once again, Verizon mmWave.

 

[Paynefanbro]

Confirmed keep sites:

1. T-Mobile eNB 880422 (40.771888512069, -73.95341047716771)
   
    
2. T-Mobile eNB 875262 (40.770453233497975, -73.96166537108597)
   
    

— — — — —

On 6/2/2022 at 8:26 PM, thisischuck01 said:

I feel like something is missing...

Turns out you don't need the little antenna on the top lol. This site hasn't had one since it was built out last summer. I was seeing 5CA for a total of 100MHz of spectrum from this small cell. Band 2 + Band 66 + 3 x Band 46. Speeds weren't that impressive but it does fill in a coverage hole so it's likely acting as a mini-macro for that block.

— — — — —

I also wanted to say that AT&T's C-band deployment is moving insanely fast. I kept spotting Nokia n77 antennas all over the place. I'd guess that they probably have a larger C-band footprint in Manhattan than Verizon at this point. It's too bad they haven't started DoD spectrum deployment yet. It'd give them an immediate boost over Verizon in the near term though from what I'm seeing on Cellmapper, they aren't exactly lacking in the speed department. They're aggregating 40MHz of LTE with 40MHz of n77 on average and getting peak speeds comparable to T-Mobile and Verizon. Loving this competition!

[wispiANt]

23 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

Turns out you don't need the little antenna on the top lol. This site hasn't had one since it was built out last summer. I was seeing 5CA for a total of 100MHz of spectrum from this small cell. Band 2 + Band 66 + 3 x Band 46. Speeds weren't that impressive but it does fill in a coverage hole so it's likely acting as a mini-macro for that block.

Yep! The "box" on the side of the pole is RF transparent - many times, Sprint had wireless backhaul equipment in there that would necessitate it.

I've found it actually isn't too difficult to identify the LTE-only oDAS node solely on antenna type (sorry if this is known information):

Verizon: Longer antenna, "cap" on top of the antenna

AT&T: Longer antenna, no "cap" on top of the antenna but knobbed about 1/4 the way down

Sprint: Short antenna

T-Mobile: No antenna on the newer nodes, longer antenna that is completely smooth on the older nodes

It seems the range of the newer LTE-only T-Mobile oDAS nodes tends to be a bit more limited than the other carriers, likely due to not using an external antenna. I'm assuming that's purposeful?

 

 

[T-MoblieUser207]

Keep site map updates
I have added all data for the keep sites, and I will go back through what I pinned in NJ to add them to the map as well. I think Interstate 287 is a decent enough west border from NYC for what to add/not to add to the map.

Sprint towers
I was expecting Dish to take over Sprint eNB 6798, but as of today all traces of it being a cell site are gone. T-Mo also removed the leftover Sprint equipment on eNB 15893 after shifting one of their sectors into the location of Sprint panel area, so it looks like Dish doesn't want it either.

AT&T midband
AT&T eNB 110790 has the C-band panel up now, I would guess they aren't waiting for DoD spectrum equipment to do a one-touch build anymore.

[AirlineFlyer]

An unmapped AT&T site at 47th St and Vernon Blvd has also gotten C-band equipment

[wispiANt]

10 minutes ago, T-MoblieUser207 said:

Sprint towers
I was expecting Dish to take over Sprint eNB 6798, but as of today all traces of it being a cell site are gone. T-Mo also removed the leftover Sprint equipment on eNB 15893 after shifting one of their sectors into the location of Sprint panel area, so it looks like Dish doesn't want it either.

I've noticed that T-Mobile will typically file a permit for removal and then Dish will file an entirely separate permit for install (with no mention of the Sprint equipment T-Mobile removed). The Dish site I found in Harlem (1700 Amsterdam) had the Sprint equipment removed months prior to the deployment of the new Dish equipment. 🤷

[T-MoblieUser207]

2 minutes ago, thisischuck01 said:

I've noticed that T-Mobile will typically file a permit for removal and then Dish will file an entirely separate permit for install (with no mention of the Sprint equipment T-Mobile removed). The Dish site I found in Harlem (1700 Amsterdam) had the Sprint equipment removed months prior to the deployment of the new Dish equipment. 🤷

Ergen and Co. really don't like talking to Sievert and Co. and/or vice versa, as I understand Dish isn't using any hardware equipment from Sprint, but at least the racks/mounts could stay if they plan on using the tower, and Dish could rollout their equipment faster. Oh well

[Paynefanbro]

18 hours ago, thisischuck01 said:

I've found it actually isn't too difficult to identify the LTE-only oDAS node solely on antenna type (sorry if this is known information):

You have no idea how much this is gonna help me going forward. I took a look around streetview at sites where I already knew the carrier and your descriptions map perfectly.

 

18 hours ago, thisischuck01 said:

It seems the range of the newer LTE-only T-Mobile oDAS nodes tends to be a bit more limited than the other carriers, likely due to not using an external antenna. I'm assuming that's purposeful?

 

T-Mobile has that deal with Crown Castle to upgrade something like 30,000 small cells nationwide. My best guess is that not adding the omnidirectional antenna was just them planning ahead for when they'd need to add midband 5G along with the shroud on top of them.

[wispiANt]

A couple more confirmed conversions:

New:

• Sprint eNB ?? (40.82117576965106,-73.88502875270659) --> T-Mobile eNB 895048
• Sprint eNB ?? (40.82265456353997,-73.87386511909503) --> T-Mobile eNB 219602

Existing (confirmed completed via DOB permit):

• Sprint eNB 9670/9671/9672 (40.72188895342967,-74.00495330604895) --> T-Mobile eNB 880578

[Paynefanbro]

I was checking out street view and came across this small cell in Breezy Point. Looks like it has been there since at least 2019. I wonder what carrier it is?

[Paynefanbro]

Keep PLMN is broadcasting on eNB 896562 in Jamaica Queens.

Location: 40.70607685304306, -73.8065914654994

[T-MoblieUser207]

ExteNet moving along quickly with the small cell buildouts. Corner of Monaco Place and Atlantic Avenue. (40.676388, -73.909347)

[Paynefanbro]

 

16 minutes ago, T-MoblieUser207 said:

ExteNet moving along quickly with the small cell buildouts. Corner of Monaco Place and Atlantic Avenue. (40.676388, -73.909347)

I literally have a pic of that same small cell that I took on Saturday lol. I couldn’t remember if anyone had already posted it or not. 

[T-MoblieUser207]

1 hour ago, Paynefanbro said:

I literally have a pic of that same small cell that I took on Saturday lol. I couldn’t remember if anyone had already posted it or not.

I would have definitely remembered if someone did, as its walking distance away from my home lol.

JFK Terminal 5 DAS
Compared to last year July 2021 when I passed through T5 at JFK, the DAS today is downright awful. They changed it to allow Sprint bands to broadcast as 312-250, and it might help with capacity, as T-Mobile's bands are congested badly. All of T-Mobile's bands (B2 20+B66 20+B12) on it don't pull more than 2 Mbps down independently or with Carrier Aggregation (CA), as when CA is added, it's not active on speedtests, no matter the server. B2 and B12 have some upload speeds, good luck with B66. Sprint has B26 plus 5 MHz B25 and 40 MHz B41, and is decently better. The 40 MHz of B41 is fine, but upload is low even with upload CA active, B25 is fine on download, and B26 is pretty much empty. Album of screenshots here.

NYC subway DAS
While B2 being expanded to 20 MHz is slowly making its way around to the stations, some stations have B2 at 15 MHz now, and some others have the Sprint keep PLMN active. Sprint B41 is still active at Fulton Street, 20 MHz too, and it was under the keep PLMN, pulling nice speeds as well.


Sprint's LTE network
I would have thought T-Mobile would have kept Sprint's LTE active for basic coverage until June 30th, but I guess not, as the sites T-Mobile are co-located on with Sprint seem to have gone dark, and B26 signal sometimes drops now. The keep sites are still active as I expected. Unlike CDMA which had "final warning" and shutdown dates (March 31 and May 31 respectively), its possible Sprint LTE's shutdown date is June 30th, with no "final warning" date.