Network Vision/LTE - New York City Market

[Paynefanbro]

Found a couple of keep sites.

1. eNB 839574 (40.72251723370543, -73.99722780930036)
2. eNB 73921 (40.70779947257582, -73.95801986323949)
3. eNB 78037 | 78038
   1. I was unable to confirm the location of this site. I picked up both of these eNBs in separate locations.  I'm guessing that both of these eNBs belong to the same site giving Sprint's eNB numbering scheme. There is an eNB 78039 but it's near West 12th and 6th Avenue according to Cellmapper whereas 78037 and 78038 are in SoHo. I've narrowed it's location down to one of three locations:
      1. 40.725051578932614, -74.00061648268205
      2. 40.72386512579925, -74.00039164495774 
      3. 40.72433063261578, -73.99784728365542

- - - - - 

I also found 100MHz n41 in Copiague, NY. Still backhaul limited.

[T-MoblieUser207]

Happy New Year to everyone!!

Here is the current number of Sprint sites on the map: 26 planned, 9 confirmed, 10 estimated (need more data), and 4 unknown locations.

T-Mobile eNBs 894592 and 894595, along with 875917, have been confirmed on Cellmapper. 894592 along with its splits center around Sprint eNB 5836, while T-Mobile 875917 centers around Sprint eNB 842901.

I took spin around the city on Cellmapper checking the unconfirmed eNBs for any 8xxxxx eNBs, as they are likely to be converts depending on the bands found. All of them except 2 in Brooklyn I am highly certain of; eNBs 894596 and 875844. Both of these could be small cells, as 891880-891884 are a set of small cells, not conversion sites. They both don't have enough data to be 100% sure, but I added them in case they are.
 

Quote

Found a couple of keep sites.

I'll add them in shortly!

Edited January 4, 2022 by T-MoblieUser207

[T-MoblieUser207]

Well I didn't know the edit limit was 30 mins, today I learned.

19 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

eNB 78037 | 78038

1. I was unable to confirm the location of this site. I picked up both of these eNBs in separate locations.  I'm guessing that both of these eNBs belong to the same site giving Sprint's eNB numbering scheme. There is an eNB 78039 but it's near West 12th and 6th Avenue according to Cellmapper whereas 78037 and 78038 are in SoHo.

Both of these eNBs lean towards small cells instead of a macro, as both have a Cell 49 found; if it was a macro, only one of the 3 consecutive numbers would have Cell 49, and like you realized, eNB 78039 should have been closer. With Sprint usually leaning to Mobilitie for small cells, I thought locating them at the nearest Mobilitie small cell would be better, but the data up on Cellmapper isn't helpful, so I picked the first location you mentioned for them both until more data for them is available.

Edited January 4, 2022 by T-MoblieUser207
typo

[Paynefanbro]

On 1/3/2022 at 9:35 PM, T-MoblieUser207 said:

Well I didn't know the edit limit was 30 mins, today I learned.

Both of these eNBs lean towards small cells instead of a macro, as both have a Cell 49 found; if it was a macro, only one of the 3 consecutive numbers would have Cell 49, and like you realized, eNB 78039 should have been closer. With Sprint usually leaning to Mobilitie for small cells, I thought locating them at the nearest Mobilitie small cell would be better, but the data up on Cellmapper isn't helpful, so I picked the first location you mentioned for them both until more data for them is available.

I'm glad you said this because location 2 and 3 are the locations of two small cells that according to the NYC DoITT were installed in late 2010/early 2011 by Extenet and they actually belonged to Clearwire. They were super rare WiMax small cells that got converted to LTE.

The only reason I wasn't sure if I was actually connected to them was because I noticed that I maintained a strong Band 41 signal while indoors (which is rare for small cells) and also because I wasn't aware that T-Mobile was even broadcasting the keep PLMN on small cells. 

If they actually are small cells then I'm 99% sure that 78037 is location 2 and 78038 is location 3 as they are the nearest Sprint/Clearwire small cells to the stores I went into. 

Now I'm wondering what that means for those small cells. Is T-Mobile only temporarily broadcasting the keep PLMN from them because they provide great infill coverage and capacity? Or do they actually plan on replacing those Band 41 small cells with Band 2/46/66/etc. small cells down the line? I don't see T-Mobile keeping them indefinitely since eventually they're gonna need to turn off Band 41 LTE if they plan on expanding n41 beyond 100MHz.

[AirlineFlyer]

11 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

I'm glad you said this because location 2 and 3 are the locations of two small cells that according to the NYC DoITT were installed in late 2010/early 2011 by Extenet and they actually belonged to Clearwire. They were super rare WiMax small cells that got converted to LTE

Clearwire had small cells?! 🤯 There is so much legacy Clearwire stuff around the city, it's crazy. But I never knew they used small cells.

[wispiANt]

On 1/3/2022 at 8:30 PM, T-MoblieUser207 said:

894596

Sprint macro conversion at the corner of 15th and 4th (40.63335129349775,-73.98596029635993). Job # B00473152 from the DOB.

 

On 1/3/2022 at 8:30 PM, T-MoblieUser207 said:

875844

I'd guess this is another Sprint macro conversion, they have a site at the corner of 4th and 78th (40.628675236201104,-74.0256740184973). eNB 9387. That's just a guess, though.

 

On 12/24/2021 at 9:25 PM, T-MoblieUser207 said:

894580 pics. I thought it was 2 slim RFS panels, but it's not. I think it is 2 wide RFS panels, but it doesn't make sense to put up 2, so I took multiple photos.

Dual six-port RFS APXVARR18 antennas. I've seen these pop up a few times (example 1, example 2). Not really sure why they go this route for some upgrades.

They have twice the midband capacity of the APXVAR18. So, capacity-wise, this setup should be similar to two APXVAR18s and an APX16. 

[T-MoblieUser207]

On 1/3/2022 at 10:16 PM, Paynefanbro said:

I'm glad you said this because location 2 and 3 are the locations of two small cells that according to the NYC DoITT were installed in late 2010/early 2011 by Extenet and they actually belonged to Clearwire. They were super rare WiMax small cells that got converted to LTE.

The only reason I wasn't sure if I was actually connected to them was because I noticed that I maintained a strong Band 41 signal while indoors (which is rare for small cells) and also because I wasn't aware that T-Mobile was even broadcasting the keep PLMN on small cells.

Wow, didn't know Clearwire had small cells! I will adjust the data for them. I guess it is time to pay more attention to the small cells now.

On 1/3/2022 at 10:16 PM, Paynefanbro said:

Now I'm wondering what that means for those small cells. Is T-Mobile only temporarily broadcasting the keep PLMN from them because they provide great infill coverage and capacity? Or do they actually plan on replacing those Band 41 small cells with Band 2/46/66/etc. small cells down the line? I don't see T-Mobile keeping them indefinitely since eventually they're gonna need to turn off Band 41 LTE if they plan on expanding n41 beyond 100MHz.

Excellent questions, as I have the same ones too. They can move to 100 MHz n41 without touching the small cells, as it seems like they own 2518-2690 MHz across most of the city, and they dropped the small cells down to 10 MHz everywhere. I fully expect B41 to be the first band shut down for when 140+ n41 happens though, but I would guess its a wait and see to know what happens with these small cells.

On 1/4/2022 at 8:54 PM, thisischuck01 said:

Sprint macro conversion at the corner of 15th and 4th (40.63335129349775,-73.98596029635993). Job # B00473152 from the DOB.

I'd guess this is another Sprint macro conversion, they have a site at the corner of 4th and 78th (40.628675236201104,-74.0256740184973). eNB 9387. That's just a guess, though.

Thanks! Updated both of them!

On 1/4/2022 at 8:54 PM, thisischuck01 said:

Dual six-port RFS APXVARR18 antennas. I've seen these pop up a few times (example 1, example 2). Not really sure why they go this route for some upgrades.

They have twice the midband capacity of the APXVAR18. So, capacity-wise, this setup should be similar to two APXVAR18s and an APX16.

Ah, thanks! I have been spending quite of bit of time in the area recently, and B2 seems to have recently turned on compared to when I first mapped it, or at least can finally be mapped, I'll try and map B66 for it eventually.

[Paynefanbro]

eNB 9339 in Brooklyn Heights is broadcasting the keep PLMN. I noticed that my phone dropped down to LTE while driving down Furman St and quickly confirmed in Service Mode.

Location: 40.693452718096985, -73.99994097994443

[AirlineFlyer]

14 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

eNB 9339 in Brooklyn Heights is broadcasting the keep PLMN. I noticed that my phone dropped down to LTE while driving down Furman St and quickly confirmed in Service Mode.

Location: 40.693452718096985, -73.99994097994443

That’s great. T-Mobile is always so weak and slow in Brooklyn Bridge Park. I didn’t know Sprint was on this building, are the antennas visible from anywhere? Are any other carriers on it?

[wispiANt]

6 hours ago, AirlineFlyer said:

That’s great. T-Mobile is always so weak and slow in Brooklyn Bridge Park. I didn’t know Sprint was on this building, are the antennas visible from anywhere? Are any other carriers on it?

Did a quick scan of some DOB filings and it looks like Sprint is the only carrier on there. There's a facade to hide the antennas, but it's missing in some of the Streetview shots (north-facing sector, south-facing sector).

[AirlineFlyer]

23 hours ago, thisischuck01 said:

Did a quick scan of some DOB filings and it looks like Sprint is the only carrier on there. There's a facade to hide the antennas, but it's missing in some of the Streetview shots (north-facing sector, south-facing sector).

I always suspected those protrusions were covering antennas but never knew for sure, thanks! It looks like the antennas are facing towards the BQE and away from the Park, unfortunately. And I don't see a third sector anywhere actually facing the park. Hopefully T-Mobile changes the config a bit to boost park coverage.

[Paynefanbro]

Results of Auction 110 were announced:

https://auctiondata.fcc.gov/public/projects/auction110/reports/assignment_results

Winnings of the big 4 carriers in NYC:

1. Verizon - 0MHz
2. T-Mobile - 20MHz
3. AT&T - 40MHz
4. Dish - 20MHz

A private equity company (spectrum squatter/speculator) called Columbia Capital also got 20MHz of spectrum.

This auction pushes AT&T over the 200MHz mark now in terms of total mid-band spectrum if we include AWS, PCS, WCS, etc. By my count they're now at 210MHz. Dish now has about 125MHz of midband spectrum in the city which is less than Sprint at its peak but should be more than enough for a carrier with ~9 million customers total. T-Mobile extended their lead and now has roughly 342MHz of midband spectrum. Verizon remains unchanged at about 260MHz.

Officially carriers can begin deploying this spectrum this year. From what I've been reading it seems like any phone that supports n77 can technically use this spectrum but it'll still require new antennas to be deployed.

I wonder if T-Mobile will begin deploying it this year or if they'll wait until the end of 2023 to do a single climb and deploy it alongside C-band.

[wispiANt]

12 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

I wonder if T-Mobile will begin deploying it this year or if they'll wait until the end of 2023 to do a single climb and deploy it alongside C-band.

Agreed, it'll be very interesting to see what their deployment strategy is with this. The fact that this will require separate radios from C-Band will definitely work to their detriment - I can still see T-Mobile shelling out for mMIMO gear on C-Band, but can't see it being worth the investment here. That means you'll be looking at a relatively small boost in capacity (374 Mb/s theoretical with standard 4x4 MIMO equipment) and limited range.

[dkyeager]

2 hours ago, thisischuck01 said:

Agreed, it'll be very interesting to see what their deployment strategy is with this. The fact that this will require separate radios from C-Band will definitely work to their detriment - I can still see T-Mobile shelling out for mMIMO gear on C-Band, but can't see it being worth the investment here. That means you'll be looking at a relatively small boost in capacity (374 Mb/s theoretical with standard 4x4 MIMO equipment) and limited range.

It is a relatively small amount of spectrum given the many auctions and mergers of recent years.  Let's not forget that small cells are supposed to be 5g midrange*. Perhaps this may help with that.

*T-Mobile CFO this month

[Paynefanbro]

2 hours ago, dkyeager said:

It is a relatively small amount of spectrum given the many auctions and mergers of recent years.  Let's not forget that small cells are supposed to be 5g midrange*. Perhaps this may help with that.

*T-Mobile CFO this month

I was thinking along the same lines. Given its power restrictions it would make sense to deploy this spectrum on small cells and eventually aggregate it with n41 and n78.

Post Sprint shutdown that’ll mean T-Mobile can aggregate ~200MHz of spectrum in a single data session without touching AWS, PCS, or any of their low band spectrum. 

That’s not bad considering there is still a squatter preventing T-Mobile from using 40MHz of BRS/EBS citywide. 
 

Edit: If you take a look at where they purchased the license, you can see that they’re mostly in urban areas where meeting the buildout requirements of this spectrum would be fairly easy. It lends credence to the idea that they may be using it primarily for small cells with deployments on macros for areas where small cells are less feasible. 

[AirlineFlyer]

I think it’s still just Verizon right now, but Boingo activated LTE in a portion the LIRR tunnel between Atlantic Terminal and Nostrand Avenue. The rest of the tunnels between Nostrand and Jamaica are still dark. What’s online now, though, is stupid fast for LTE.

 

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by AirlineFlyer

[AirlineFlyer]

A monopole in Hewlett right at the LIRR station has been upgraded in the past few months to a full n41 array

This was a few months ago (top Verizon, middle was Nextel, Clearwire, then Sprint, bottom started as Metro PCS)

[wispiANt]

21 hours ago, Paynefanbro said:

Edit: If you take a look at where they purchased the license, you can see that they’re mostly in urban areas where meeting the buildout requirements of this spectrum would be fairly easy. It lends credence to the idea that they may be using it primarily for small cells with deployments on macros for areas where small cells are less feasible. 

I didn't actually look at the buildout requirements before making that comment - they're definitely going to have to deploy on macro sites if they want to hit the buildout requirements.

PEA001 has a population of 25,237,061, of which they will have to hit 45% in 4 years (11,356,677) and 80% in 8 years (20,189,649). If they were to cover the entirely, all five boroughs, of NYC using only small cells (something I'd say is impossible considering their current small cell density), they'd only be covering 32% of the population in the PEA.

And this is with spectrum that only adds 300Mb/s per sector and will likely have only 50% the range of their current n41 equipment. Doesn't really seem worth it to me.

I'm of the opinion that they're looking to hedge their bets in further EBS/BRS acquisition. 

[dkyeager]

1 hour ago, thisischuck01 said:

I'm of the opinion that they're looking to hedge their bets in further EBS/BRS acquisition. 

Great job on your analysis of small cells versus the 3.45GHZ and the population coverage requirements.

I wonder if the fcc is stalling because they may address the key limitation of of 2.5: the convoluted frequencies. Not sure how they would get there, but it would be better public policy if you could actually use a single license in current times, ie 5, 10 or 20MHz. Of course they could also go in more of a nonprofit or small business direction. But most likely they will keep it as planned given how messy the transition would be.

In many/most metro areas BRS/EBS is fully licensed. Would be nice if they put pressure on the squatters.

[wispiANt]

1 hour ago, dkyeager said:

Great job on your analysis of small cells versus the 3.45GHZ and the population coverage requirements.

Crunching the numbers a bit more, covering the full MSA would result in slightly under 80% population coverage. But they'd have to deploy on essentially every micro/macro cell in the area.

 

1 hour ago, dkyeager said:

I wonder if the fcc is stalling because they may address the key limitation of of 2.5: the convoluted frequencies. Not sure how they would get there, but it would be better public policy if you could actually use a single license in current times, ie 5, 10 or 20MHz. Of course they could also go in more of a nonprofit or small business direction. But most likely they will keep it as planned given how messy the transition would be.

In many/most metro areas BRS/EBS is fully licensed. Would be nice if they put pressure on the squatters.

Yeah, I'm not gonna pretend like I know how either negotiations with squatters or Auction 108 will pan out. That said, I can't see 3.45GHz being *that* valuable to squatters considering the strict buildout requirements. 

Another interesting thought I had was a possible spectrum trade with Dish. Dish is still leasing 600MHz to T-Mobile in quite a few metro areas, and I'm sure T-Mobile is looking ahead to what their lowband spectrum situation will be once those leases expire. If T-Mobile is truly going to rely on n71+n41 CA as much as they say they will, it sure would be nice to be working with more than 5MHz-10MHz of n71 uplink capacity.

Don't go quoting me on that, though, total (pipedream) speculation haha.

[AirlineFlyer]

Spotted what I believe is some Verizon C-band on Long Island for the first time. Co-located on the same building as T-Mobile eNB 40458 in East Rockaway. 5G NW was pushing 200 Mbps at the site before C-band goes live next week.

[Paynefanbro]

Got around to confirming a bunch of sites on @T-MoblieUser207's keep site map.

1. T-Mobile's eNB 895016/895019 is fully converted.
   1. Location: 40.628817330852435, -73.94802044096039
   2. Before and After:
      
       
2. Sprint eNB 9387 | T-Mobile eNB 875844 is fully converted:
   1. Location: 40.628692951396076, -74.02563009329194
   2. Before and After:
      
       
3. Sprint eNB 80298 | T-Mobile eNB 894979
   1. Location: 40.66119380333843, -73.99692859379763
   2. Before and After:
      
       
4. Sprint eNB 5876 | T-Mobile eNB 875872
   1. Location: 40.712727453039825, -73.96616061305588
   2. Unfortunately I couldn't get any good pics of this site. Interestingly, it's still broadcasting the keep PLMN but it's super difficult to connect to Sprint's network since the site is broadcasting T-Mobile's network too now. I would connect to Band 25 and in less than 5 seconds get kicked over to T-Mobile's network.

 

Also found some more keep sites all over Brooklyn.

1. Sprint eNB 9017 (Coney Island/Seagate)
   1. Location: 40.580253806568685, -74.00248537401552
2. Sprint eNB 8997 (Bay Ridge)
   1. Location: 40.629962008891404, -74.03053070573397
3. Sprint eNB 896543/896544 (Brooklyn Heights)
   1. Location:40.696432412633825, -73.99280003516627
4. Sprint eNB 253884/253885 (DUMBO)
   1. Location: 40.70135428933968, -73.98694542735213

Edit: Also wanted to add that n41 in southern Brooklyn is still at 40MHz and Sprint's Band 41 is at 15MHz. I'm not sure what T-Mobile's Band 41 is running at unfortunately. I'm thinking T-Mobile will likely use NRCA or wait until Sprint's LTE network is shut down to expand beyond 40MHz n41 there. Speeds weren't bad but they peaked around 400Mbps in my testing with averages around 300Mbps.

[AirlineFlyer]

I know this is primarily a T-Mobile/Sprint forum, but has anyone seen any evidence of Verizon C-band in NYC yet? As expected, nothing so far in Downtown Brooklyn since none of the sites have the hardware.

[Paynefanbro]

14 minutes ago, AirlineFlyer said:

I know this is primarily a T-Mobile/Sprint forum, but has anyone seen any evidence of Verizon C-band in NYC yet? As expected, nothing so far in Downtown Brooklyn since none of the sites have the hardware.

I noticed the same exact thing. My nearest Verizon site has C-band antennas on it and I'm getting nothing from it indoors or outdoors. Sascha Segan from PC Mag has been running around Queens trying to find it and did connect in one spot it looks like.

I thought I'd give it a day just in case it's a staggered rollout of some sort but no luck today either.

[AirlineFlyer]

31 minutes ago, Paynefanbro said:

I noticed the same exact thing. My nearest Verizon site has C-band antennas on it and I'm getting nothing from it indoors or outdoors. Sascha Segan from PC Mag has been running around Queens trying to find it and did connect in one spot it looks like.

I thought I'd give it a day just in case it's a staggered rollout of some sort but no luck today either.

For all the hemming and hawing Verizon did about how dire the need for C-band spectrum is they really didn't seem to focus on NYC, like, at all. It's really weird. I guess they are content with the service delivery as it is for the time being. Why rush to 500 Mbps when 100 Mbps is fine.