Marcelo Claure, Town Hall Meetings, New Family Share Pack Plan, Unlimited Individual Plan, Discussion Thread

[utiz4321]

It's really not as big of an advantage as they make it out to be. Verizon has 90 MHz of LTE on the air *today* across three carriers on almost every site in my city, with a site density high enough that they use narrow-beam antennas everywhere, and they haven't even started their AWS-3 overlay yet. AT&T has 50-70 MHZ on the air across 2-3 LTE carriers with an even higher site density and is overlaying another carrier right now (and this is actually a spectrum-constrained market for them as they have no AWS here). Everyone but Sprint is already running 4x2 MIMO on their high-band spectrum (although Sprint has at least upgraded to hardware capable of it now).

 

Sprint isn't planning to do more than 3x20 MHz of band 41 on most sites, putting them at 80 MHz (plus any additional band 25 carriers) on most tri-band sites in the *future*. And with the lowest average site density of the top 4 carriers, you can see why small cells are so important to them.

 

Now, before I get responses from people who think I just called band 41 worthless, please re-read the first sentence of my post. All I'm saying is that the amount doesn't necessarily make it the acclaimed treasure trove.

 

The biggest advantage that spectrum will probably offer is its ability to be shifted to downlink-only (thanks to TDD) for carrier aggregation.

Do to frequency reuse 2.5 does have more capacity than lower bands. So the advantage isn't as small as you play it out.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ascertion]

It's really not as big of an advantage as they make it out to be. Verizon has 90 MHz of LTE on the air *today* across three carriers on almost every site in my city, with a site density high enough that they use narrow-beam antennas everywhere, and they haven't even started their AWS-3 overlay yet. AT&T has 50-70 MHZ on the air across 2-3 LTE carriers with an even higher site density and is overlaying another carrier right now (and this is actually a spectrum-constrained market for them as they have no AWS here). Everyone but Sprint is already running 4x2 MIMO on their high-band spectrum (although Sprint has at least upgraded to hardware capable of it now).

 

Sprint isn't planning to do more than 3x20 MHz of band 41 on most sites, putting them at 80 MHz (plus any additional band 25 carriers) on most tri-band sites in the *future*. And with the lowest average site density of the top 4 carriers, you can see why small cells are so important to them.

 

Now, before I get responses from people who think I just called band 41 worthless, please re-read the first sentence of my post. All I'm saying is that the amount doesn't necessarily make it the acclaimed treasure trove.

 

The biggest advantage that spectrum will probably offer is its ability to be shifted to downlink-only (thanks to TDD) for carrier aggregation.

Verizon has band 13, 4, and I guess 5? How much bandwidth do they have in each of those carriers? B13 I thought was 10mhz, B4 is 20mhz, but B5 can't fill in that much empty space. I don't know enough about Verizon to make such statements though.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5X

[RAvirani]

Sprint isn't planning to do more than 3x20 MHz of band 41 on most sites, putting them at 80 MHz (plus any additional band 25 carriers) on most tri-band sites in the *future*. And with the lowest average site density of the top 4 carriers, you can see why small cells are so important to them.

 

I was aware that Sprint was capable of 6x20 MHz?

[Paynefanbro]

It's really not as big of an advantage as they make it out to be. Verizon has 90 MHz of LTE on the air *today* across three carriers on almost every site in my city, with a site density high enough that they use narrow-beam antennas everywhere, and they haven't even started their AWS-3 overlay yet. AT&T has 50-70 MHZ on the air across 2-3 LTE carriers with an even higher site density and is overlaying another carrier right now (and this is actually a spectrum-constrained market for them as they have no AWS here). Everyone but Sprint is already running 4x2 MIMO on their high-band spectrum (although Sprint has at least upgraded to hardware capable of it now).

 

Sprint isn't planning to do more than 3x20 MHz of band 41 on most sites, putting them at 80 MHz (plus any additional band 25 carriers) on most tri-band sites in the *future*. And with the lowest average site density of the top 4 carriers, you can see why small cells are so important to them.

 

Now, before I get responses from people who think I just called band 41 worthless, please re-read the first sentence of my post. All I'm saying is that the amount doesn't necessarily make it the acclaimed treasure trove.

 

The biggest advantage that spectrum will probably offer is its ability to be shifted to downlink-only (thanks to TDD) for carrier aggregation.

 

 

Verizon has band 13, 4, and I guess 5? How much bandwidth do they have in each of those carriers? B13 I thought was 10mhz, B4 is 20mhz, but B5 can't fill in that much empty space. I don't know enough about Verizon to make such statements though.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5X

 

I was thinking the same thing. It's either Band 2 or Band 5, but I wasn't aware they were running 20x20 in either of those bands currently.

[nexgencpu]

Sprint isn't planning to do more than 3x20 MHz of band 41 on most sites, putting them at 80 MHz (plus any additional band 25 carriers) on most tri-band sites in the *future*

 

They are actually planning on deploying 100Mhz on Band 41's current setup, even if they are not all aggregated, it puts them at a significant advantage Spectrum wise.

 

Here is a quote from there release:

 

"Our new LTE Plus network using LTE Advanced technology is a significant differentiator for Sprint and our customers.  It’s also the foundation on which we will roll out more LTE Advanced capabilities such as 3/4/5-channel carrier aggregation, higher order MIMO and more advanced beamforming"

 

Plus the 5x5 B25 plus 5x5 in quite a few markets (some even have deployed 10x10), plus 5x5 B26 that puts them at around 130Mhz+ deployable spectrum range. 

 

I don't think Sprint has any Spectrum issues, its more of a density problem in some markets.

 

Where as Verizon is firing on all cylinders and they could be running out of spectrum and will need to refarm and pick up whatever spectrum options are out there left .

 

Article about Verizon's Spectrum.

http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/verizon-running-out-spectrum-could-get-escape-hatch-leasing-dishs-airwaves/2015-10-21

 

But with the level of financial backing Verizon has, they most likely will find a way around the situation.

[lilotimz]

 Everyone but Sprint is already running 4x2 MIMO on their high-band spectrum (although Sprint has at least upgraded to hardware capable of it now).

 

Additional clarification for that statement?

 

AFAIK T-mobile has the most 4x2 MIMO deployment thanks to their Nokia regions. Only recently have they started deploying 4x2 MIMO on their Ericson markets with new AIR and RRUS32 equipment. 

 

From what I've seen and was told by technicians on sites, ATT and Verizon is predominately 2x2 units from Alcatel-Lucent and Ericsson (AIR21 / RRUS11 / A2 modules / RRUS12) with 4T4R RRUS32 coming online later with ATT starting that with their Band 30 2.3 GHZ WCS overlay. 

 

Even my regions newest Verizon rebuilds  includes a single RRUS12 2T2R band 4 unit. None of their sites or ATTs sites utilize 4T4R capable equipment yet for Band 4 / 2 so i am in disbelieve that they are.

[Flompholph]

I was aware that Sprint was capable of 6x20 MHz?

Yes but 2 chains of 3x20MHz at 4x2 MIMO. I think that is were he may be getting mistaken on the 3x20.

 

I am curious where the 90 MHz comes from is it 90x90 or 45x45?

[lilotimz]

Yes but 2 chains of 3x20MHz at 4x2 MIMO. I think that is were he may be getting mistaken on the 3x20.

 

I am curious where the 90 MHz comes from is it 90x90 or 45x45?

 

A single chain of 3x20 is the standard deployment. Anything more is a high capacity site deployed on a need to have basis where the split it from 8T8R to 4T8R for each chain. Podunk small town of 3000 doesn't need 6 band 41 carrier or 2+ gigabit backhaul.

[RAvirani]

I was thinking the same thing. It's either Band 2 or Band 5, but I wasn't aware they were running 20x20 in either of those bands currently.

Yes but 2 chains of 3x20MHz at 4x2 MIMO. I think that is were he may be getting mistaken on the 3x20.

 

I am curious where the 90 MHz comes from is it 90x90 or 45x45?

There's no way it's 90x90 it's most definitely 45x45. In my market, i think Verizon is 30x30 - 10x10 B13, 20x20 AWS. 99% sure.

[Arysyn]

Additional clarification for that statement?

 

AFAIK T-mobile has the most 4x2 MIMO deployment thanks to their Nokia regions. Only recently have they started deploying 4x2 MIMO on their Ericson markets with new AIR and RRUS32 equipment. 

 

From what I've seen and was told by technicians on sites, ATT and Verizon is predominately 2x2 units from Alcatel-Lucent and Ericsson (AIR21 / RRUS11 / A2 modules / RRUS12) with 4T4R RRUS32 coming online later with ATT starting that with their Band 30 2.3 GHZ WCS overlay. 

 

Even my regions newest Verizon rebuilds for Band 4 includes a single RRUS12 2T2R band 4 unit. None of their sites or ATTs sites utilize 4T4R capable equipment yet for Band 4 / 2 so i am in disbelieve that they are.

 

Which vendor does T-Mobile use in the Chicago market?

[lilotimz]

Which vendor does T-Mobile use in the Chicago market?

 

Nokia. 

[Arysyn]

Nokia. 

 

That is good to know since my mother decided to keep them. We expect the device to arrive later in the day.

[JWMaloney]

Do to frequency reuse 2.5 does have more capacity than lower bands. So the advantage isn't as small as you play it out.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say? LTE inherently supports SFN via OFDMA on any band.

 

 

Verizon has band 13, 4, and I guess 5? How much bandwidth do they have in each of those carriers? B13 I thought was 10mhz, B4 is 20mhz, but B5 can't fill in that much empty space. I don't know enough about Verizon to make such statements though.

 

Sent from my Nexus 5X

 

 

I was thinking the same thing. It's either Band 2 or Band 5, but I wasn't aware they were running 20x20 in either of those bands currently.

 

 

Yes but 2 chains of 3x20MHz at 4x2 MIMO. I think that is were he may be getting mistaken on the 3x20.

 

I am curious where the 90 MHz comes from is it 90x90 or 45x45?

 

 

There's no way it's 90x90 it's most definitely 45x45. In my market, i think Verizon is 30x30 - 10x10 B13, 20x20 AWS. 99% sure.

 

Verizon:

1C = 20 MHz (10x10) band 13

2C = 40 MHz (20x20) band 4

3C = 30 MHz (15x15) band 2

Total 90 MHz

 

Verizon has had 2C complete on all sites for over a year. They substantially completed 3C only recently (coincidentally right after RootMetrics tested the area, so they came in second to T-Mobile for data speeds); there has not yet been any sign of 4C, but it's more than likely going to be AWS-3 over band 5.

 

AT&T:

1C = 20 MHz (10x10) band 17/12

2C = 30 MHz (15x15) band 2

3C = 20 MHz (10x10) band 30

4C = unknown

Total 70+ MHz

 

AT&T has also had 2C complete on all sites for over a year, having additionally built several new sites during the overlay. They recently picked up 10 MHz (5x5) of disaggregated band 2 spectrum to bump 2C up from 20 MHz (10x10). Their 3C has been substantially complete for a few months (as I stated previously, they are constrained in this market without any band 4, so this was one of the early band 30 markets). They have recently started overlaying 4C, but it is unclear what band it will be in at this time, as they are using single-low, dual-high antennas like Sprint does; but I suspect it's a second band 2 carrier (they have 10 MHz of non-contiguous band 2 to work with, and they recently started removing one of the legacy antennas from several sites). I can't comment on their actual speeds as my Cricket SIM is limited to 8 Mbps, but they have the highest site density by a long shot.

 

T-Mobile:

1C = 30 MHz (15x15) band 4

2C = 10 MHz (5x5) band 12

Total 40 MHz

 

T-Mobile 2C is in the early stages here. It's unclear what their choice will be for 3C: Right now, they have DC-HSPA in band 4 and HSPA + GSM in band 2. Their 50 MHz (25x25) of band 4 is contiguous, so they could refarm one of the HSPA carriers to bump their LTE to 20x20; more likely they will refarm the band 2 carrier. But either way, they're not hurting for capacity right now. They converted all but two MetroPCS sites to full build, practically doubling their site density, and speeds are commonly 30-50 Mbps.

 

Additional clarification for that statement?

 

AFAIK T-mobile has the most 4x2 MIMO deployment thanks to their Nokia regions. Only recently have they started deploying 4x2 MIMO on their Ericson markets with new AIR and RRUS32 equipment. 

 

From what I've seen and was told by technicians on sites, ATT and Verizon is predominately 2x2 units from Alcatel-Lucent and Ericsson (AIR21 / RRUS11 / A2 modules / RRUS12) with 4T4R RRUS32 coming online later with ATT starting that with their Band 30 2.3 GHZ WCS overlay. 

 

Even my regions newest Verizon rebuilds  includes a single RRUS12 2T2R band 4 unit. None of their sites or ATTs sites utilize 4T4R capable equipment yet for Band 4 / 2 so i am in disbelieve that they are.

 

Do you call a 2T4R setup 2x4 MIMO or 4x2 MIMO?

 

Shreveport doesn't require permits for existing sites, so I'll borrow this from a NOLA permit (same equipment):

 

 

Those are the Alcatel-Lucent RRH 2x60-B4:

 

Verizon did a rip/replace of all their band 4 equipment when they did their band 2 overlay, so both are 2T4R.

 

Similarly, AT&T achieves 2T4R with the Ericsson RRUS 12 + A2 module (which adds 2xRx); and as I said, we were an early band 30 market, so we have 4T4R as well.

 

T-Mobile has been 4x2 capable from the beginning with Nokia. The only exception here has been that they have a large number of 4-sector sites, some of which re-purposed the MetroPCS LTE equipment for the 4th sector only.

[JWMaloney]

Yeah, I would love to be able to force roaming using AT&T in Nebraska. So many places with great Viaero coverage and either AT&T will hold on to a non usable distant WCDMA site or refuses to scan for roaming for 10-15 minutes after losing. Airplane mode doesn't help in those instances either.

 

Are they using the same bands? If not, you could try forcing a specific band using a Samsung device -- that lands my T-Mobile SIM on AT&T frequently when locked to band 12.

[lilotimz]

 

 

Do you call a 2T4R setup 2x4 MIMO or 4x2 MIMO?

 

Shreveport doesn't require permits for existing sites, so I'll borrow this from a NOLA permit (same equipment):

 

 

 

Those are the Alcatel-Lucent RRH 2x60-B4:

 

 

 

 

Similarly, AT&T achieves 2T4R with the Ericsson RRUS 12 + A2 module (which adds 2xRx); and as I said, we were an early band 30 market, so we have 4T4R as well.

 

 

For Alcatel-Lucent equipment, 2x2 MIMO equipment is denoted by 2x(wattage) so 2x65 is 2 ports with 65 watts maximum broadcasting power per port. 4T4R ALU equipment is 4x(wattage) which in Sprints case is SL-RRH 1900 4X45 or RRH4x30 which ATT nor Verizon have, to my knowledge, a single deployed compatible ALU 4T4R B4 unit. 

 

For Ericsson, their portfolio has been behind on 4T4R 4x2 MIMO for quite some time and only has come to fruition recently with the RRUS31 and RRUS32 and AIR configurations.

 

RRUS11+A2 modules ARE NOT 4x mimo as it requires 4 active transmit antennas. The A2s add additional capacity to an existing RRUS11 setup but does not increase the number of active transmit antennas. Likewise the RRUS12s which Verizon is using in its Band 4 overlay is 2x2 only and they don't use 11+A2 setups that often. 

[JWMaloney]

The ones carriers put out for the entire public.

 

And I'm glad you view me as a Premier Sponsor -- I'm humbled.    

 

1. Copy the following into a bookmarklet:

javascript:$.getScript('http://jwmaloney.name/s4gru/maximize-sprint-impact.js',null);

2. Go to the Sprint coverage map.

 

3. Click the bookmarklet.

[JWMaloney]

For Alcatel-Lucent equipment, 2x2 MIMO equipment is denoted by 2x(wattage) so 2x65 is 2 ports with 65 watts maximum broadcasting power. 4T4R ALU equipment is 4x(wattage) which in Sprints case is SL-RRH 1900 4X45 or RRH4x30 which ATT nor Verizon have, to my knowledge, a single deployed compatible ALU 4T4R B4 unit.

 

For Ericsson, their portfolio has been behind on 4T4R 4x2 MIMO for quite some time and only has come to fruition recently with the RRUS31 and RRUS32 and AIR configurations.

 

RRUS11+A2 modules ARE NOT 4x mimo as it requires 4 active transmit antennas. The A2s add additional capacity to an existing RRUS11 setup but does not increase the number of active transmit antennas. Likewise the RRUS12s which Verizon is using in its Band 4 overlay is 2x2 only and they don't use 11+A2 setups that often.

So would 2T4R then be called 2x4 MIMO or simply 4x receive diversity? Either way, that's what both of them have been doing in this region. You can see it denoted in Verizon's diagram as "4xRx RRH". AT&T is even using these crazy 12-port (4 low, 8 high) antennas.

[lilotimz]

So would 2T4R then be called 2x4 MIMO or simply 4x receive diversity? Either way, that's what both of them have been doing in this region. You can see it denoted in Verizon's diagram as "4xRx RRH". AT&T is even using these crazy 12-port (4 low, 8 high) antennas.

AFAIK they configure it as 2x2 MIMO TM3 or TM4 at least for the standard equipment setups.

 

Now for those crazy Att experimental setups with an ungodly amount of wcdma and lte radios who knows what they cook up though it's likely multi sector narrow beam type of deal where the radios operate in 1x2 or 2x2 to offer the highest capacity possible.

 

But for our discussions when I or most people reference 4x MIMO it's to recognize that macro or micro site has 4 active transmit antennas broadcasting with UE being 2x. So 4 transmit from tower and 2 receive at UE. Under this category tmobile Nokia regions is the king of that deployment with sprint 8t8r 2.5 / Clearwire Samsung 4t4r following and some Ericsson rrus31 deployments slapped on and then the rrus32 deployments of Att band 30.

 

Most Ericsson for Att tmo and VZW and Alcatel-Lucent equipment for Att and VZW will need to be replaced for 4x2/4x4 MIMO. Sprint will need to rip out the old 2x2 Panasonic pcs rrus they deployed in the first two years and add an extra antenna /pcs radio set in Samsung and alu land for 4x2 on pcs like Ericsson land (or completely shut down PCS CDMA and run the only on existing setups....).

[Trip]

Regarding 800 MHz rebanding:

 

http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=60001347998

 

- Trip

[Ascertion]

Here's the highlights of the rebanding update.

 

 

Sprint is very pleased to report that Sprint and incumbent 800 MHz operators (both public safety and non-public safety) have signed all of the necessary Frequency Reconfiguration Agreements (“FRAs”) to complete band reconfiguration across the entire United States, including all of the Border Areas – over 2400 FRAs.

Currently only 13 Regions of the 55 NPSPAC Regions remain incomplete.    Excluding the five Regions located within in the U.S. – Mexican Border Area and the State of Washington (Region 43) located in the U.S. – Canada Border Area, only two individual licensees (one public safety and one non-public safety) remain to complete 800 MHz band reconfiguration in the seven non-border NPSPAC areas of the United States.  These accomplishments demonstrate that, by any measure, the multi-year, multi-billion dollar 800 MHz band reconfiguration project is reaching its final stages.  

[S4GRU]

 

 

Verizon:

1C = 20 MHz (10x10) band 13

2C = 40 MHz (20x20) band 4

3C = 30 MHz (15x15) band 2

Total 90 MHz

 

Verizon has had 2C complete on all sites for over a year. They substantially completed 3C only recently (coincidentally right after RootMetrics tested the area, so they came in second to T-Mobile for data speeds); there has not yet been any sign of 4C, but it's more than likely going to be AWS-3 over band 5.

 

AT&T:

1C = 20 MHz (10x10) band 17/12

2C = 30 MHz (15x15) band 2

3C = 20 MHz (10x10) band 30

4C = unknown

Total 70+ MHz

 

AT&T has also had 2C complete on all sites for over a year, having additionally built several new sites during the overlay. They recently picked up 10 MHz (5x5) of disaggregated band 2 spectrum to bump 2C up from 20 MHz (10x10). Their 3C has been substantially complete for a few months (as I stated previously, they are constrained in this market without any band 4, so this was one of the early band 30 markets). They have recently started overlaying 4C, but it is unclear what band it will be in at this time, as they are using single-low, dual-high antennas like Sprint does; but I suspect it's a second band 2 carrier (they have 10 MHz of non-contiguous band 2 to work with, and they recently started removing one of the legacy antennas from several sites). I can't comment on their actual speeds as my Cricket SIM is limited to 8 Mbps, but they have the highest site density by a long shot.

 

T-Mobile:

1C = 30 MHz (15x15) band 4

2C = 10 MHz (5x5) band 12

Total 40 MHz

 

T-Mobile 2C is in the early stages here. It's unclear what their choice will be for 3C: Right now, they have DC-HSPA in band 4 and HSPA + GSM in band 2. Their 50 MHz (25x25) of band 4 is contiguous, so they could refarm one of the HSPA carriers to bump their LTE to 20x20; more likely they will refarm the band 2 carrier. But either way, they're not hurting for capacity right now. They converted all but two MetroPCS sites to full build, practically doubling their site density, and speeds are commonly 30-50 Mbps.

Verizon only has 2C complete on about 40% of sites in the Dakotas, Nebraska, Wyoming, Montana, Colorado that I've seen. But is complete with 1C. No 3C seen in these areas yet at all.

 

AT&T is only about 75% complete with 1C in these areas. 2C in about 20%. And 3C, 0%. I haven't seen any B30, yet. Even around Denver.

 

Your area must be high on the radar for Verizon and AT&T. Mine, not so much.

 

 

Using Tapatalk on Note 8.0

[S4GRU]

Are they using the same bands? If not, you could try forcing a specific band using a Samsung device -- that lands my T-Mobile SIM on AT&T frequently when locked to band 12.

Yeah, I don't use any Samsung devices except this WiFi only tablet I'm typing on. I can't select bands. But a good idea for those who can.

 

Using Tapatalk on Note 8.0

[boiker]

1. Copy the following into a bookmarklet:

javascript:$.getScript('http://jwmaloney.name/s4gru/maximize-sprint-impact.js',null);

2. Go to the Sprint coverage map.

 

3. Click the bookmarklet.

 

The only thing I'd like to see here is a 4G map without spark.  The spark coverage area shown for Phoenix is laughable and exceptionally unrealistic.

[utiz4321]

Regarding 800 MHz rebanding:

 

http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=60001347998

 

- Trip

So reading this I am a bit confused. Is Phoenix clear for deployment or is it part of the border region?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[utiz4321]

The only thing I'd like to see here is a 4G map without spark. The spark coverage area shown for Phoenix is laughable and exceptionally unrealistic.

I am hardly ever out of b41 coverage in the east valley.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk