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got to thinking about this and with all the talk of the backhauls being upgraded to Microwave or Fiber (in most cases) could someone chime in and state the differences between the two? Advantages/disadvantages and just overall difference's.

And also compare the two to the current bundled T1's we have now, and the only way to add backhaul is to add another bundled T1 line.

 

I found this article that explains some...

http://www.antennaso...Exalt_RG10.html

http://www.ceragon.c...white_paper.pdf

 

And with that second link I might of answered my own question here. lol

anyway would like to still have some discussion on it if possible, like why they are going with one instead of the other in areas.

 

I did see in some the Clearwire and also Sprint seem to be some of the biggest favoring Microwave earlier than others.

 

I also read some places that stated there were no monthly costs associated with Microwave compared to the charges they have to pay for T1 lines which didn't make much sense to me also...

Edited by Sgt. Slaughter
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I only read the first article but microwave definitely seems the way to go. Extremely cheap compared to laying down new fiber lines especially where they didn't exist before. They are able to install them much quicker since they don't have to deal with permits and actual construction of it and since they can just put it on their own tower, no fees need to be paid to someone else. It seems this is the way Sprint/Clearwire are going based on the NV site pictures that were posted here a few days ago, with that microwave dish on the top of the tower right below the other radios and antennas. Glad to see Sprint is being cost effective and future proof here and not wasting their cash.

 

Just saw that you are in raleigh sgt slaughter, I'm right next door lol and seen you on xda and infected rom but my name on those are ncfastls1 I think. Hope to see some NV sites around here soon.

Edited by nova46
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One disadvantage with it is reliability. I was in Baltimore last year and it snowed 3 or 4 inches that evening. When the snow covered everything, the 4G went down. It was not restored until almost 24 hours later.

 

If that main tower goes down then you have many cells that are down as well.

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One disadvantage with it is reliability. I was in Baltimore last year and it snowed 3 or 4 inches that evening. When the snow covered everything, the 4G went down. It was not restored until almost 24 hours later.

 

If that main tower goes down then you have many cells that are down as well.

 

yeah that was the one thing i read about. the 2nd link has a more detailed breakdown between the two and such. Cited weather as a disadvantage for microwave but said technology has improved since initial start.

 

Though all what i read and all is why i ended up posting here about the backhaul method used as im sure someone has a much more detailed explanation on it

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I only read the first article but microwave definitely seems the way to go. Extremely cheap compared to laying down new fiber lines especially where they didn't exist before. They are able to install them much quicker since they don't have to deal with permits and actual construction of it and since they can just put it on their own tower, no fees need to be paid to someone else. It seems this is the way Sprint/Clearwire are going based on the NV site pictures that were posted here a few days ago, with that microwave dish on the top of the tower right below the other radios and antennas. Glad to see Sprint is being cost effective and future proof here and not wasting their cash.

 

Just saw that you are in raleigh sgt slaughter, I'm right next door lol and seen you on xda and infected rom but my name on those are ncfastls1 I think. Hope to see some NV sites around here soon.

 

yeah deff would like to see some NV here. im right at tryon rd/US401 intersection area and the 2 towers I pull off of need serious help. lol

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I work by the corner of Maynard rd and e chatam St and even though there is a tower right down the road and I get full service, a lot of my speed tests put me at or below dial up speeds. Trying to stream I heart radio is next to impossible.

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Microwave is better than a T-1, sure... but let's not get carried away here. There is nothing better than fiber to the tower.

 

I am curious what percentage of Verizon 4G LTE base stations are fed via microwave... not many, I am guessing.

 

Latency and reliability can't be beat with fiber :)

 

 

I am guessing that Sprint defintiely learned a bit about microwave from Clearwire's recent deployment.

Edited by irev210
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Microwave is better than a T-1, sure... but let's not get carried away here. There is nothing better than fiber to the tower.

 

I am curious what percentage of Verizon 4G LTE base stations are fed via microwave... not many, I am guessing.

 

Latency and reliability can't be beat with fiber :)

 

but from what ive read they have minimized the reliability issues to very little with tech advances of microwave now.

microwave from what i read is better in terms of being able to get it rolled out to a tower much faster than fiber(no digging req for microwave), and can provide enough bandwidth carriers would be using in the very distant future...

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but from what ive read they have minimized the reliability issues to very little with tech advances of microwave now.

microwave from what i read is better in terms of being able to get it rolled out to a tower much faster than fiber(no digging req for microwave), and can provide enough bandwidth carriers would be using in the very distant future...

 

Yeah, I bet the capital costs of deploying microwave are very very low. But still, who wouldn't rather fiber, heh.

 

I know it's not practical (or feasible) to have 100% fiber... but one can dream.

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I am curious what percentage of Verizon 4G LTE base stations are fed via microwave... not many' date=' I am guessing.[/quote']

 

 

While Sprint was selling off its landline business, Verizon was deploying its FIOS network. So it is no big deal for Verizon to have fiber to its towers. That's why its network backhaul has no problems with the loads on it.

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While Sprint was selling off its landline business, Verizon was deploying its FIOS network. So it is no big deal for Verizon to have fiber to its towers. That's why its network backhaul has no problems with the loads on it.

 

Yeah, I would be curious to know what percentage of base stations are actually connected to the carrier's own fiber. Probably not that many (I am guessing).

 

Verizon FIOS doesn't have the largest footprint... and don't forget that Verizon and Verizon Wireless are two different companies.

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While Sprint was selling off its landline business, Verizon was deploying its FIOS network. So it is no big deal for Verizon to have fiber to its towers. That's why its network backhaul has no problems with the loads on it.

 

I'm guessing since they spent $ on fiber VZ musta gotten shotty hardware given the amount of time they have outages. Lol

 

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk

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Yeah' date=' I would be curious to know what percentage of base stations are actually connected to the carrier's own fiber. Probably not that many (I am guessing).

 

Verizon FIOS doesn't have the largest footprint... and don't forget that Verizon and Verizon Wireless are two different companies.[/quote']

 

Two different companies but there is nothing precluding Verizon from being the carrier for Verizon Wireless.

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Microwave is better than a T-1, sure... but let's not get carried away here. There is nothing better than fiber to the tower.

 

I am curious what percentage of Verizon 4G LTE base stations are fed via microwave... not many, I am guessing.

 

Latency and reliability can't be beat with fiber :)

 

I am guessing that Sprint defintiely learned a bit about microwave from Clearwire's recent deployment.

 

gallery_1_1_39911.jpg

 

I live 250' away from a Verizon/Sprint/Tmo/Cricket co-located tower in El Valle de Arroyo Seco, NM (Dry Creek Valley for you gringos). I have no idea what percentage nationally Verizon's sites have fiber backhaul. But I can tell you here in Verizon's Santa Fe, NM market, they had microwave radomes pop up on almost all their towers 2 to 4 weeks before the LTE panels started going up. When I saw them out there with the cherry picker to install the radome at the site near my home, I ran over asked them who it was for (hoping against all odds it was for Sprint). They told me they were subcontractors for Verizon installing microwave backhaul on most of their towers.

 

After watching the Verizon LTE deployment over our area, I noticed there are only a few urban Verizon LTE sites in Santa Fe that do not have radomes, and there is one at the Santa Fe Opera that does not, either. But that would make it approximately 90% of Verizon sites around here have Microwave backhaul.

 

Modern microwave is a very good thing. It's just a wireless bridge to a fiber connection some place else. It's just a wireless way to extend fiber networks to sites that cannot connect to fiber directly. Don't get me wrong, there are disadvantages to microwave. But it's not really performance. Latency is only slightly affected.

 

Let's take two LTE sites that are three miles apart along a highway. One is closer to the city and has a direct fiber connection for backhaul. The other is fed by a microwave connection back to the first tower and then connected to the fiber backhaul. The first tower with direct fiber backhaul will deliver to devices X milliseconds ping and X MB download speeds with ideal cell conditions and full signal. The second one, the one on the microwave backhaul, will deliver X+20 milliseconds ping and virtually no difference in download speed with same cell conditions and signal.

 

Microwave does not really take a performance hit, until you start daisy chaining towers together or severe weather/smoke conditions. And some daisy chaining will occur, especially in rural highway locations. However, if you run all your microwave direct point to point to a central fiber backed switching station, it will perform beautifully. And new microwave standards and equipment can run speeds so far higher than any thing a modern LTE network will ever need, that it's not an issue. In the most simplest sense, microwave backhaul is just a wireless fiber bridge.

 

Even if Sprint wanted to install an all fiber, or even majority fiber, backhaul solution for its network, it would take years to develop, order and run fiber to a majority of sites. Network Vision would be a 5 to 6 year program. Microwave is the best solution for backhaul for Sprint's needs now. Sprint is using a little fiber backhaul in NV, at sites where it is already available and they could secure it for a reasonable cost. Maybe around 10% to 15%?

 

This all being said, I fully acknowledge that fiber is better than microwave in its simplest sense. You are all right there. But microwave is not a poor solution or insufficient solution in any regard. And the biggest determining factor of how fast and how well the microwave backhaul is going to perform at any given site is the fiber connection at the central switching location that is feeding all these sites. Not the microwave links themselves.

 

- Robert

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yup after reading those two links I posted in the OP im a big fan of microware here....much faster and easier to deploy and carriers more than enough bandwidth that the carriers will need for a long long long time. Also much easier to repair and less likely to have issues....what are you going to do when some local joe is working the backhoe and cuts into your nice fiber line...oops....talk about a timely repair......

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I'm guessing since they spent $ on fiber VZ musta gotten shotty hardware given the amount of time they have outages. Lol

 

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk

 

Almost all of the outages / issues they've had with LTE have to do with the dual authorization scheme they're using. In order to let your SIM card hold your LTE authorization and your CDMA NAM & authentication codes, they had to do some unusual (read: first time ever attempted) things to make the CDMA/EVDO/EHRPD system work for 4G phones. The 3G only phones have no issues in these outages since they relate to the authentication for EHRPD and LTE. If Verizon had not attempted this, you wouldn't be able to just move your SIM to another phone and switch-- you'd have to call and get a new phone activated everytime you switched phones. If Sprint plans to follow the same scheme, they'll learn from Verizon's "growing pains" since this is something that has never been done before, but it is a very nice feature. In the LTE outages, the phone tries for EHRPD, and if the authentication is down, it gives up after about 30 seconds of not getting a handshake then falls back to EVDO.

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Almost all of the outages / issues they've had with LTE have to do with the dual authorization scheme they're using. In order to let your SIM card hold your LTE authorization and your CDMA NAM & authentication codes, they had to do some unusual (read: first time ever attempted) things to make the CDMA/EVDO/EHRPD system work for 4G phones. The 3G only phones have no issues in these outages since they relate to the authentication for EHRPD and LTE. If Verizon had not attempted this, you wouldn't be able to just move your SIM to another phone and switch-- you'd have to call and get a new phone activated everytime you switched phones. If Sprint plans to follow the same scheme, they'll learn from Verizon's "growing pains" since this is something that has never been done before, but it is a very nice feature. In the LTE outages, the phone tries for EHRPD, and if the authentication is down, it gives up after about 30 seconds of not getting a handshake then falls back to EVDO.

 

They had 3G outages before lte was touched though. But I see ur point there.

 

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk

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This all being said, I fully acknowledge that fiber is better than microwave in its simplest sense. You are all right there. But microwave is not a poor solution or insufficient solution in any regard. And the biggest determining factor of how fast and how well the microwave backhaul is going to perform at any given site is the fiber connection at the central switching location that is feeding all these sites. Not the microwave links themselves.

 

Robert, you forgot to mention one of biggest bonuses of microwave backhaul: the RBOCs do not control it. That Sprint has to contract with VZ Communications or AT&T for much of its T1 or fiber backhaul across the country puts Sprint at a significant disadvantage compared to VZW and AT&T Mobility.

 

Sure, VZ and AT&T will say that they charge Sprint the same rates that they charge their wireless divisions. But money paid by VZW to VZ or by AT&T Mobility to AT&T is money just shifted from the left pocket to the right pocket. So, VZ and AT&T have every reason to keep special access rates high.

 

This is just one reason why it is almost unconscionable that we have allowed VZ and AT&T to retain direct ownership of their wireless wings. VZ and AT&T should be forced to split their respective wireline and wireless divisions into separately traded companies. The simultaneous horizontal and vertical oligopoly that the Twin Bells have going needs to go away yesterday.

 

AJ

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Robert, you forgot to mention one of biggest bonuses of microwave backhaul: the RBOCs do not control it. That Sprint has to contract with VZ Communications or AT&T for much of its T1 or fiber backhaul across the country puts Sprint at a significant disadvantage compared to VZW and AT&T Mobility.

 

Sure, VZ and AT&T will say that they charge Sprint the same rates that they charge their wireless divisions. But money paid by VZW to VZ or by AT&T Mobility to AT&T is money just shifted from the left pocket to the right pocket. So, VZ and AT&T have every reason to keep special access rates high.

 

This is just one reason why it is almost unconscionable that we have allowed VZ and AT&T to retain direct ownership of their wireless wings. VZ and AT&T should be forced to split their respective wireline and wireless divisions into separately traded companies. The simultaneous horizontal and vertical oligopoly that the Twin Bells have going needs to go away yesterday.

 

AJ

 

I see your point there; however, nobody forced Sprint to spinoff Embarq (now CenturyLink), giving all their wireline and backbone operations up. Sprint chose to spin them off during the Nextel acquisition, but I don't believe they were forced to. If they had left Nextel alone and kept their wireline division, they'd be in a very different position now.

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Robert' date=' you forgot to mention one of biggest bonuses of microwave backhaul: the RBOCs do not control it. That Sprint has to contract with VZ Communications or AT&T for much of its T1 or fiber backhaul across the country puts Sprint at a significant disadvantage compared to VZW and AT&T Mobility.

 

Sure, VZ and AT&T will say that they charge Sprint the same rates that they charge their wireless divisions. But money paid by VZW to VZ or by AT&T Mobility to AT&T is money just shifted from the left pocket to the right pocket. So, VZ and AT&T have every reason to keep special access rates high.

 

This is just one reason why it is almost unconscionable that we have allowed VZ and AT&T to retain direct ownership of their wireless wings. VZ and AT&T should be forced to split their respective wireline and wireless divisions into separately traded companies. The simultaneous horizontal and vertical oligopoly that the Twin Bells have going needs to go away yesterday.

 

AJ[/quote']

 

You know...that aspect didn't even cross my mind. I myopically was stuck on the technical merits of microwave. But its too true.

 

Robert

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Yeah, I would be curious to know what percentage of base stations are actually connected to the carrier's own fiber. Probably not that many (I am guessing).

 

Verizon FIOS doesn't have the largest footprint... and don't forget that Verizon and Verizon Wireless are two different companies.

 

Not only does Verizon FiOS have a small footprint, they are not currently deploying additional markets due to cost of investment vs. ROI (below expectations mostly due to fierce competition from cable co's., and other issues)

 

Verizon does not have fiber deployed all of its LTE cell sites, they use microwave, too.

Edited by cervonim
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Agree, with the Embarq's land line resources Sprint would be in a much stronger strategic position and would have more options both operationally and financially.

 

I agree. I remember living in Vegas in the early 90's and we had Sprint for our landline. I was surprised when they spun the landline division off into Embarq.

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