Sprint Reportedly Bowing Out of T-Mobile Bid (was "Sprint offer" and "Iliad" threads)

[mhammett]

It's not so much that 600Mhz will be better than 800Mhz, it's that Sprint doesn't have ENOUGH low frequency spectrum. In most places, Sprint only has enough 800Mhz for 3x3 or 5x5 Mhz of LTE. IMHO Sprint needs at least 20Mhz of usable sub 1Ghz spectrum to make for decent VoLTE and data performance. They can get that by combining a 5x5 of 600Mhz with 6.5x 6.5 or more of 800Mhz. In markets where Sprint lacks at least a 6.5 x 6.5 of 800Mhz, they will probably need 10x10 of 600Mhz. Given their lack of 700 Mhz holdings and their minimal 800Mhz holdings (compared to VZW and ATT which have both 700Mhz AND their Cellular holdings. Frankly, they only really need to bid for 600Mhz in markets where they don't already hold either side of the cellular license.

 

Going with 1x having a throughput of 150 kilobit, I'll guess that 1xA has a throughput of 600 kilobit. That same amount of spectrum as LTE would move >9 megabit. Even doing 100 kilobit per call (not knowing what their HD codec uses), that's 96 calls without even using any of the "existing" 800 LTE. I believe 1xA will do 256 without any HD. Say it's a G.729 codec instead of HD, that's 10x as many calls, so 960 in that same space. I think they'll be okay.

 

Now they're only deploying in 2.5 GHz on their TDD channels. As they said they would only do VoLTE on FDD, if they were to do an FDD 2.5 overlay, that's even more capacity freed up from 1900, which will free up capacity from 800. Do people even use the phone anymore? When all three bands are working in harmony, there shouldn't be many people running on 800, enough so that I think they'll be okay with the holdings they already have. Maybe they use two antennas on one radio for a setup that can switch between MIMO-A and MIMO-B (one for capacity, one for coverage) to optimize coverage and capacity. Stack that with Mu-MIMO and you've really got something. The next 5 - 10 years will see some incredible advancements in antenna technologies. My space (fixed wireless data) is already starting to see some of them coming in. We'll be getting Mu-MIMO setups within 12 - 18 months.

 

I'm still running the coverage plot. I picked ~215 Sprint sites in Central Illinois to base my analysis on as it would best highlight any coverage advantages.

 

Leave 600 to T-Mobile, small operators and WISPs. Focus on building what you already have and CCA\RRRRRRRRP.  ;-)

[lilotimz]

Now they're only deploying in 2.5 GHz on their TDD channels. As they said they would only do VoLTE on FDD, if they were to do an FDD 2.5 overlay, that's even more capacity freed up from 1900, which will free up capacity from 800. Do people even use the phone anymore? When all three bands are working in harmony, there shouldn't be many people running on 800, enough so that I think they'll be okay with the holdings they already have.

 

umm...

 

 

FDD LTE networks will be preferred for VoLTE traffic over TDD LTE. TDD already has the uplink slotted for maximum data download efficiency. Adding additional uplink data demand for voice (which is synchronous in nature) on TDD (which is not synchronous) may cause a noticeable data upload degradation in voice demand scenarios. Due to FDD being synchronous in nature like voice calls operate, Sprint VoLTE will prefer FDD LTE over TDD LTE when possible to provide for the best network operation.

 

FDD-LTE being preferred does not mean VoLTE over TDD-LTE is not going to happen. 

[mhammett]

umm...

 

 

 

FDD-LTE being preferred does not mean VoLTE over TDD-LTE is not going to happen. 

 

If that's my most grave mistake, I'll take it. That said, building out the FDD LTE is certainly an option should they decide to exercise it. It's great that they won't have to at least until filling their uplinks.

[Azimuth]

I wasn't being general at all. I was speaking about a very specific group of aggressive Tmo trolls defecating all over FierceWireless article comments. And that is my feelings about that very specific group of people.

 

And maybe I don't travel out of my own forums very often, but I typically see on Sprint topics folks explaining what Sprint is doing rationally and intelligently and then a whole lot of attacks commence against them. The poisoned Hate-erade people be drinking is messin' up their minds.

 

Americans are getting so polarized. Our egomaniacal over valued self worth and opinion is crossing bounds that it even infringes on others to have an opinion. Even something as trivial as an opinion over which wireless provider they use. We are finding our identities in brands and life themes, persecuting people who think differently. It almost feels like we are socially devolving to some extent.

 

Robert via Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Dude, you have no idea what South Africa is like. I had to venture away from home forums just to grow. If you see the level of trolling back home (enthusiasm is confused with "an agenda"), it would make you sick. Sharing and people coming forward to share is completely stifled.

 

Hate-erade. Love it.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Azimuth

[lilotimz]

If that's my most grave mistake, I'll take it. That said, building out the FDD LTE is certainly an option should they decide to exercise it. It's great that they won't have to at least until filling their uplinks.

 

It is most likely that a lot of users will be utilizing VoLTE over TDD-LTE when it gets fired up next year.

 

There's just far too many users with uniband devices stuck on PCS LTE and the IBEZ will preclude about a 50-75million pops from SMR 800 LTE. The lack of PCS spectrum to refarm in many markets alongside the high saturation of the PCS carriers will no doubt make VoLTE on TDD-LTE the standard for many areas for quite some time. 

[mhammett]

It is most likely that a lot of users will be utilizing VoLTE over TDD-LTE when it gets fired up next year.

 

There's just far too many users with uniband devices stuck on PCS LTE and the IBEZ will preclude about a 50-75million pops from SMR 800 LTE. The lack of PCS spectrum to refarm in many markets alongside the high saturation of the PCS carriers will no doubt make VoLTE on TDD-LTE the standard for many areas for quite some time.

Barring any issues to the contrary, it should be the standard everywhere. It's the greatest resource in Sprint's tool belt. Priority in reverse of frequency to maximize available capacity for those with fewer options.

 

Any threads on 3550 - 3700 MHz anywhere? That's another band we're trying to keep the mobile guys out of.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[mozamcrew]

Going with 1x having a throughput of 150 kilobit, I'll guess that 1xA has a throughput of 600 kilobit. That same amount of spectrum as LTE would move >9 megabit. Even doing 100 kilobit per call (not knowing what their HD codec uses), that's 96 calls without even using any of the "existing" 800 LTE. I believe 1xA will do 256 without any HD. Say it's a G.729 codec instead of HD, that's 10x as many calls, so 960 in that same space. I think they'll be okay.

 

Now they're only deploying in 2.5 GHz on their TDD channels. As they said they would only do VoLTE on FDD, if they were to do an FDD 2.5 overlay, that's even more capacity freed up from 1900, which will free up capacity from 800. Do people even use the phone anymore? When all three bands are working in harmony, there shouldn't be many people running on 800, enough so that I think they'll be okay with the holdings they already have. Maybe they use two antennas on one radio for a setup that can switch between MIMO-A and MIMO-B (one for capacity, one for coverage) to optimize coverage and capacity. Stack that with Mu-MIMO and you've really got something. The next 5 - 10 years will see some incredible advancements in antenna technologies. My space (fixed wireless data) is already starting to see some of them coming in. We'll be getting Mu-MIMO setups within 12 - 18 months.

 

I'm still running the coverage plot. I picked ~215 Sprint sites in Central Illinois to base my analysis on as it would best highlight any coverage advantages.

 

Leave 600 to T-Mobile, small operators and WISPs. Focus on building what you already have and CCA\RRRRRRRRP.  ;-)

I mostly agree with this, but you have to remember that voice and data will both be sharing that 800Mhz spectrum and a single 5x5 of LTE isn't going to be enough once we start transitioning to VoLTE. I think a provider needs either a pair of 5x5 or a single 10x10 of lower frequency spectrum for LTE. Sprint probably would be fine with just a nationwide 5x5 of 600Mhz, to pair with their 800Mhz holdings, 

[bigsnake49]

 Really? I think Sprint has plenty of Mid and highband spectrum in most places. It's lower band spectrum that is really their only need. That's why everyone keeps saying to keep thier powder dry for the 600Mhz auctions.

I want Dish's spectrum away from T-Mobile's paws so that they have to compete with AT&T and Verizon in the AWS-3 auction. I want them to pay a lot of money in the AWS-3 auction so that they don't have enough for the 600MHz auction.

[mhammett]

I mostly agree with this, but you have to remember that voice and data will both be sharing that 800Mhz spectrum and a single 5x5 of LTE isn't going to be enough once we start transitioning to VoLTE. I think a provider needs either a pair of 5x5 or a single 10x10 of lower frequency spectrum for LTE. Sprint probably would be fine with just a nationwide 5x5 of 600Mhz, to pair with their 800Mhz holdings,

What is your basis for that?

[bigsnake49]

Just remember that Sprint will have access to another 3MHz in the 900MHz SMR band. I have no idea what they are going to do with it after it gets rebanded. I believe the rebanding there will proceed so much faster than the 800MHz. Ideally what I would like for them to do is to move the people that occupy the spectrum below theirs up to 900MHz and take over that spectrum. Basically take over the guard and expansion band in the 800MHz SMR and 1 MHZ below that. That will give them a nice, round 10x10 channel. 

[bigsnake49]

Same. And sometimes it's not even about unloading unused services, it can also be about switching to different/cheaper alternatives. Internal groups can also add waste by perpetuating inefficient processes that only serve to lose time and money.

True, you know that T-Mobiles has been touted as being lean and mean company and they have 38,000 employees. The same as Sprint!!!

[bigsnake49]

 Really? I think Sprint has plenty of Mid and highband spectrum in most places. It's lower band spectrum that is really their only need. That's why everyone keeps saying to keep thier powder dry for the 600Mhz auctions.

Oh, I absolutely think they need more low band spectrum. But I also happen to think they should trade some spectrum with Dish. I happen to think that they have so much 2.5GHz spectrum that a lot of it will sit unused. They should trade some of the unused 2.5 spectrum to Dish for Dish to use for fixed broadband and VOD and TV everywhere. In trade they should get Dish's midband spectrum. First to keep it out of the hands of T-Mobile. Second because midband has to be their bread and butter frequency. Their sites are spaced for it. Keep 2.5GHz for the urban centers. 8T8R panels are not cheap, are they?

[sbolen]

I grew up playing and officiating soccer. But I did not really get into the pro game until the last 2-3 years. Of course, it does not hurt to have Sporting KC and Sporting Park nearly in my backyard. Both really are jewels of American soccer. In fact, I can see my soccer interest exceeding my NFL interest in the next few years.

 

AJ

It won't be long before MLS edges out the NHL as a big four sport.

 

(I want a STL franchise so bad. With our huge Bosnian population, we'd have no problems filling seats if we had some Bosnian players on the roster.)

[irev210]

He's a classless douchebag. And he proves it every day. I'm so glad that Masa called off the merger for many reasons. But I'm probably most thankful that Legere will not be running Sprint.

 

We get to see what an independent Sprint by Masa and a Tmo by Legere will look like in 3 years. In 5 years. Whatever happens to Sprint, good or bad, will be because of Masa. And likewise with Tmo, it will be Legere.

 

You'd have to be a fool not to take Masayoshi Son in that fight. Hardly 5 feet tall. But that's where I'm backing. Doubling down on Sprint now.

 

Robert via Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

 

I hope that T-Mobile and Sprint both succeed.  I hope both end up having world class networks and are both awesome.  Just hope that half of Verizon's subscribers switch to Sprint and half of AT&T's subscribers switch to T-Mobile.

 

That would be fantastic.

[bigsnake49]

Sprint will do fine once they have their network in order. Do I think they will make inroads against Verizon/AT&T? Maybe they can buy a few million from them by offering loss making or break even plans or buying ETF's or offering devices at a discount. But in the long term neither Sprint nor T-Mobile will have  success against the big two. They are too entrenched. Whatever success Sprint achieves has to come from new uses of data: Connected cars, actually offering decent plans for laptops, etc. It amazes me that carriers think that laptops have to pay $60/month for a decent plan. Make it $30-$35/month and we are talking. 

 

The only way they can make inroads against the big two is to actually merge the networks so that they can spread both capex and opex over 100M people instead of 50M. Then they can concentrate on marketing against the big two. 

Edited August 7, 2014 by bigsnake49

[kg4icg]

Now sites are posting this to show how things are in the cellphone carrier industry. http://www.phonearena.com/news/The-history-of-U.S.-carriers-visualized-or-how-we-settled-on-the-big-four-AT-T-Verizon-Sprint-and-T-Mobile_id59091

[jamisonshaw125]

Now sites are posting this to show how things are in the cellphone carrier industry. http://www.phonearena.com/news/The-history-of-U.S.-carriers-visualized-or-how-we-settled-on-the-big-four-AT-T-Verizon-Sprint-and-T-Mobile_id59091

Verizon is not the biggest provider? 

[mhammett]

It won't be long before MLS edges out the NHL as a big four sport.

 

(I want a STL franchise so bad. With our huge Bosnian population, we'd have no problems filling seats if we had some Bosnian players on the roster.)

Surely you can't be serious.

It amazes me that carriers think that laptops have to pay $60/month for a decent plan. Make it $30-$35/month and we are talking.

You apparently have no idea what it costs to provide these services.

[jreuschl]

A nationwide 10 X 10 600mhz !!! Let's all put that in the universe so it can happen.

 

might have to use my voodoo magic lol

 

I would assume that Sprint would have an easier upgrade path to towers for 600MHz than other carriers with all new equipment?

[jreuschl]

This is very true.  Sprint picked poor performing companies in many instances.  They also waited late to execute many critical backhaul agreements.  And they also allowed too many poor performing companies to exceed the contract schedules without penalty or cancellation.  The backhaul deployment scheme could have been handled way better.

 

And Sprint is doing much better managing their backhaul deployment in 2014.  But it was a long and painful process to get here.  And they ain't outta the woods yet.

 

Robert

 

Could Sprint have had better results by focusing on major cities and then working on the rest of the network?  Which really is what T-Mobile did.  Consumers won't realize Sprint is upgrading their entire network, and not really prioritizing an inner city.

 

The "TM is so cool crowd" probably never drives an hour outside of a city to notice how bad TM coverage is outside of the major area.

 

But maybe this strategy would have helped Sprint get backhaul in sooner?

[bigsnake49]

Surely you can't be serious.

You apparently have no idea what it costs to provide these services.

I was actually involved with a local WISP so I know how much it costs to provide those services. When you have an already built network you have to get as much money as you can out of it before you have to replace it again. an empty network provides no revenue. Plus the laptop will probably be on wifi most of the time. Same thing as an iPad.

Edited August 7, 2014 by bigsnake49

[sbolen]

Surely you can't be serious.

About hockey being edged out of the big four? I'm dead serious. One more lockout and they're a niche sport.

[cletus]

Story about Claure and Son meeting 2 years ago and falling in love:  http://online.wsj.com/articles/sprints-new-boss-will-stand-out-1407368271

     

 

"The plan now is for Sprint to be a "price leader" later in the year, the Sprint executive said."

 

Sounds good to me.

[sbolen]

The "TM is so cool crowd" probably never drives an hour outside of a city to notice how bad TM coverage is outside of the major area.

I shared this in another thread, but I was about 60 miles outside of St. Louis on Highway 70 heading to Indianapolis and pulled pretty awesome speeds on B26. I'd be willing to bet T-Mobile fans wish they had these kind of speeds in suburbs, let alone in the middle of a corn-to-the-left, soy-to-the-right part of the interstate.

 

[Makkari]

Verizon is not the biggest provider? 

As far as I know, they are.  I think there's a mistake in the chart: Verizon, as of Q1 2014, provides service to 122 million customers and AT&T has a 116 million. 

Edited August 7, 2014 by Makkari