Shentel / Sprint LTE - (was ntelos - West & N&W Virginia)

[chamb]

55 minutes ago, PythonFanPA said:

Anyone else in the southern central (Harrisburg-Lancaster region) PA area that can speak to whether the time is viable or right yet to get a T-Mo sim and switch from native Sprint?  @chamb looking at you as a chief prospect for this possibly.  I've been waiting to see if there's any significant news of tower/equipment changes in this area before even trying to test the waters.

  I am kind of tied down lately with a major medical issue in the family, so I can not travel around much. I do see some sites being upgraded but surely only a few in the major high density areas.  I can not chase these sites all down, but 5g on 41 is being activated.  I will provide only my ESTIMATES of what appear to have been done.

I still am using my old Galaxy s9 with a Sprint Sim.  I am around Chambersburg and they seem to have forgotten this area so far. They have switched me to a TM plan against my wishes, but it is no trouble as long as I can use the Sprint SIM.  TM service in Chambersburg is not nearly as good as Shentel's old service.

I really do not need 5G at all.  Shentel's 4G service is great while TM is poor.  TM customers can actually roam on Shentel's 4G, so they are ok.  I will only switch to a TM sim if my S-9 dies or the TM service suddenly gets better than the Shentel network.  I see so many people complaining about having lots of bars on TM 5G UC but having super slow speeds.

I will use my old trusty S-9 on the ole reliable Shentel network as long as it is superior to the TM network.

Here is what I think we have in Central PA. (My best estimates)

Hagerstown, Md   a couple of sites

Waynesboro, Pa   1 site

Carlisle, pa 1 site

Mechanicsburg, 1 site

Harrisburg   Several sites

Litiz, PA   1 or two sites 

Lancaster Several sites

York, Several sites

The upgraded sites are mostly in "Center City" and not in rural areas. 

[Trip]

Using the Hagerstown-Chambersburg area as a proxy, they've done a handful of upgrades to pre-existing T-Mobile sites, not including the Chambersburg smokestack itself, but haven't touched Shentel sites at all.  They've flagged almost every non-co-located Shentel site with 312250 though, so they should theoretically be available to T-Mobile customers, but YMMV.

I'm going to stick with the Sprint SIM as long as I can, and then make a decision between staying with T-Mobile or joining Verizon.

- Trip

[dkyeager]

1 hour ago, Trip said:

Using the Hagerstown-Chambersburg area as a proxy, they've done a handful of upgrades to pre-existing T-Mobile sites, not including the Chambersburg smokestack itself, but haven't touched Shentel sites at all.  They've flagged almost every non-co-located Shentel site with 312250 though, so they should theoretically be available to T-Mobile customers, but YMMV.

I'm going to stick with the Sprint SIM as long as I can, and then make a decision between staying with T-Mobile or joining Verizon.

- Trip

Historically T-mobile has upgraded metropolitan areas first,  which makes sense from a cash flow perspective.  The problem is from a basic call coverage aspect 1x800 is very hard to beat.  I have gotten usable signal 50 miles from a site.  T- Mobile may be attempting to emulate that with widespread 600MHz coverage so thin that it may only work for voice. Does this notion match what you are seeing?  

Their WISP strategy may make rural site economics far more attractive for a much better buildout, but hard to see how that will work in West Virginia which already has many WISPS unless they go on a small WISP buying spree.

Personally would have preferred Shentel remaining as an affiliate. Hard to see T-Mobile not getting distracted by more lucrative markets, but only time will tell.

[radem]

14 hours ago, PythonFanPA said:

Anyone else in the southern central (Harrisburg-Lancaster region) PA area that can speak to whether the time is viable or right yet to get a T-Mo sim and switch from native Sprint?  @chamb looking at you as a chief prospect for this possibly.  I've been waiting to see if there's any significant news of tower/equipment changes in this area before even trying to test the waters.

I am not a nationwide expert on coverage but as a general rule if you are not roaming on a Sprint partner network which sometimes appears as native coverage, you will often (but not always) get very similar coverage on the T-Mobile network to your Sprint coverage.  The vast majority of the Sprint keep sites needed to fill in T-mobile coverage holes are broadcasting a PLMN which will let you continue to use those sites when using a T-Mobile SIM.  Roaming coverage (including roaming that appears as native coverage) is not nearly as good on T-Mobile as it is on Sprint native so if you roam at all, you may find T-Mobile coverage to be significantly worse.

[Trip]

T-Mobile's non-Shentel coverage is so sparse that there are large dead zones between sites in some areas.  In many places, most or all T-Mobile sites that aren't on power lines now have 600 on them.

But they've not started touching Shentel sites as far as I know.  Just T-Mobile's own sites in Shentel territory, which won't be enough.

- Trip

 

[RAvirani]

On 11/16/2021 at 7:25 AM, dkyeager said:

The problem is from a basic call coverage aspect 1x800 is very hard to beat.  I have gotten usable signal 50 miles from a site.  T- Mobile may be attempting to emulate that with widespread 600MHz coverage so thin that it may only work for voice. Does this notion match what you are seeing?  

There was talk of this close to the merger - with the CDMA shutdown, Sprint employees had pitched the idea of switching up MCS tables to push lowband LTE range closer to 1x range. E.g., Table 6 has a spectral efficiency of just 0.0034 for MCS 1 which allows engineer to push LTE range a lot, since the airlink is still very usable at low signal strengths. But, IIRC T-Mobile decided against it.

I believe they’re running table 2 on lowband in most places which bottoms out at 0.1523 efficiency. 

[chamb]

2 hours ago, dkyeager said:

Historically T-mobile has upgraded metropolitan areas first,  which makes sense from a cash flow perspective.  The problem is from a basic call coverage aspect 1x800 is very hard to beat.  I have gotten usable signal 50 miles from a site.  T- Mobile may be attempting to emulate that with widespread 600MHz coverage so thin that it may only work for voice. Does this notion match what you are seeing?  

Their WISP strategy may make rural site economics far more attractive for a much better buildout, but hard to see how that will work in West Virginia which already has many WISPS unless they go on a small WISP buying spree.

 

TM management just mentioned that they want to aggregate 600 5G with 2500 5G so it becomes more usable at a further distance.  if they do, the 600 upload will probably become totally swamped. Even the 600 download could become swamped. I really question if that is a smart thing to do. Might be better to aggregate band 2 or band 4 with  41.  I agree with some aggregation  but not using band 71 with 41.

As far as WISP in WV, Shentel has their own spectrum.  They are prohibited from offering cell service but they already have activated some 2.5 spectrum for home internet service and are ready to do more of it.

As for the QCI tables, about 2 years ago, my phone started latching onto signals of -130 and holding on no matter what.  It was totally not usable at that level.  Shentel had done this either on purpose or accidentally. Anyway after some time, it stopped doing that.  Shentel went back to normal QCI. I have seen mention of TM trying to use signals at a -130 level.   Maybe better phones and base station equipment will allow it, but it did not work in the past.bring on MIMO on all bands.

[RAvirani]

4 minutes ago, chamb said:

As for the QCI tables, about 2 years ago, my phone started latching onto signals of -130 and holding on no matter what.  It was totally not usable at that level.  Shentel had done this either on purpose or accidentally. Anyway after some time, it stopped doing that. 

This sounds more like a Qrxlevmin/Qqualmin config issue to me. I’ve seen T6 perform adequately below -125 dBm on a not super-clean signal. 

9 minutes ago, chamb said:

I have seen mention of TM trying to use signals at a -130 level.   Maybe better phones and base station equipment will allow it, but it did not work in the past.bring on MIMO on all bands.

Diversity and lower modulation can do this today. The cost of switching to one of those tables (even 3 or 5) is reduced data speeds for users with strong signal strengths. As always, everything in wireless is a trade off.

[dkyeager]

21 hours ago, Trip said:

T-Mobile's non-Shentel coverage is so sparse that there are large dead zones between sites in some areas.  In many places, most or all T-Mobile sites that aren't on power lines now have 600 on them.

But they've not started touching Shentel sites as far as I know.  Just T-Mobile's own sites in Shentel territory, which won't be enough.

- Trip

 

There are Sprint sites which have been upgraded with T-Mobile antennas and Massive Mimo, yet are only broadcasting b25, b26, and CDMA and thus are invisible to older T-Mobile phones. They are used by T-Mobile customers with 5g phones.

[Trip]

1 hour ago, dkyeager said:

There are Sprint sites which have been upgraded with T-Mobile antennas and Massive Mimo, yet are only broadcasting b25, b26, and CDMA and thus are invisible to older T-Mobile phones. They are used by T-Mobile customers with 5g phones.

I've seen a handful those as well, but only in Sprint territory, not yet in Shentel territory.  (And they're B25/41 only, no 26.)  I'll be passing one of them this coming weekend and was told it was supposed to be shifted to T-Mobile in early November, so we'll see.

- Trip

[radem]

On 11/16/2021 at 8:47 AM, Trip said:

T-Mobile's non-Shentel coverage is so sparse that there are large dead zones between sites in some areas.  In many places, most or all T-Mobile sites that aren't on power lines now have 600 on them.

But they've not started touching Shentel sites as far as I know.  Just T-Mobile's own sites in Shentel territory, which won't be enough.

- Trip

 

So are the Shentel sites not broadcasting the Sprint keep PLMN?  If so, this would make the coverage very poor for T-Mobile users in Shentel land as they would have to lose the T-Mobile signal completely before they would connect to a "roaming" Shentel site.  If they are broadcasting the keep PLMN, supported phones would seamlessly roam back and forth between T-Mobile, Sprint, and Shentel sites.

[Trip]

Yes, they're broadcasting 312250.  What I'm saying is that they've not done anything more than that--in other areas, we've seen keep sites being converted to T-Mobile equipment.  That hasn't begun in the Shentel region.  And on my phone, at least, it seems to prefer the T-Mobile native over 312250, sometimes connecting to 5x5 T-Mobile 700 when 10x10 Shentel PCS should be available, for example.

- Trip

[PythonFanPA]

@Trip  @chamb  - anything new on this front in the past 3 months or so that you guys are aware of? 

[chamb]

2 hours ago, PythonFanPA said:

@Trip  @chamb  - anything new on this front in the past 3 months or so that you guys are aware of? 

They have done some upgrades to some of the original T-Mobile sites in the area.  I see no work on the old existing Shentel sites. I am still using a S-9 with a Sprint Sim.  Works fine on the old Shentel network.  If I should lose a connection to the old Shentel network, I could connect to the t-Mobile network. That is authorized and does work. HOWEVER - it rarely happens as the Shentel network is so good.  I am sitting and waiting.  T-Mobile's past history tells me not to jump onto their wagon until I have proof it is going to be much better than the past.

Right now, T-Mobile is using an old horse on Medicare to pull their wagon that has a broken wheel. I hope for better things, but I am a little nervous about the prospects.

[Trip]

A handful of conversion permits for Shentel sites but not a landslide as of yet.  A handful of upgrades to existing T-Mobile sites but not widespread yet.  Way, way behind the rest of the network.

Had Shentel been left in charge, I'm sure half the network would be upgraded by now.

- Trip

[dkyeager]

22 minutes ago, Trip said:

A handful of conversion permits for Shentel sites but not a landslide as of yet.  A handful of upgrades to existing T-Mobile sites but not widespread yet.  Way, way behind the rest of the network.

Had Shentel been left in charge, I'm sure half the network would be upgraded by now.

- Trip

Leftovers versus strategic focus.  Would be interesting if rural places were put into their own "market". However, like highways,  AM radio,  etc the money comes from the urban areas.

[Trip]

Yep.  Lack of work in rural areas like the college cities of Lynchburg and Charlottesville.  Meanwhile, large urban areas like the unnamed tree-populated area off US-17 in Stafford have n41.

- Trip

[davidtm]

I totally agree with chamb! I see in SCPro the same towers, even if the color bar has changed to magenta on some, and the label is now usually "T-Mobile/Sprint" B2 or whatever band/freq.

[Trip]

That implies you're connected via the 311490 PLMN which treats T-Mobile and Sprint as equivalent.  (In theory, anyway.  In practice, I almost never see Sprint, except in the Shentel region.)

- Trip

 

[dkyeager]

12 hours ago, Trip said:

That implies you're connected via the 311490 PLMN which treats T-Mobile and Sprint as equivalent.  (In theory, anyway.  In practice, I almost never see Sprint, except in the Shentel region.)

- Trip

 

Varies by place. Except CDMA, Sprint largely pushed to the edge of Columbus while Pittsburgh reports lots of Sprint sites still active.

 

[Trip]

Plenty of Sprint sites are still active around here, I just very rarely connect to most of them on my primary devices.  My Sprint-SIM phone locked on Band 26 confirms they're still there.

- Trip

[davidtm]

On 2/17/2022 at 10:21 AM, Trip said:

Plenty of Sprint sites are still active around here, I just very rarely connect to most of them on my primary devices.  My Sprint-SIM phone locked on Band 26 confirms they're still there.

- Trip

Yeah, we're still rocking our Sprint Sims (for the reasons I stated above) 😀

[JDP121]

I know Harrisonburg and Waynsboro Va areas have access to 5G UC. On Thursday on the way home I connected to it between Albemarle Fire/Rescue Station 12 and UVA Research Park I connected to it for about 45 seconds. Which is good news. Which means we should have 5G UC soon. Haven’t been able to connect to it since but. Can’t always check my phone while driving. Don’t need no ticket from PD lol. I did confirm with a T-MOBILE employee that works at a third party store in the area that we should expect 5G UC by the end of June if not earlier. 
 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1us9-7vHBI2j15MqNOBMNbZKr2_Op1eki/view?usp=drivesdk

[Trip]

Not sure what is needed in terms of permits for such upgrades per local government, but I don't see much at this point. 

Looked through Charlottesville first and there's a permit requested for 192 Carlton, but no carrier listed.  1515 6th St has one for Dish and another unlabeled.  That's all I see that's new in the past six months.

I spot-checked a few in Albemarle and didn't see anything particularly new. 

- Trip

[JDP121]

On 3/21/2022 at 7:35 AM, Trip said:

Not sure what is needed in terms of permits for such upgrades per local government, but I don't see much at this point. 

Looked through Charlottesville first and there's a permit requested for 192 Carlton, but no carrier listed.  1515 6th St has one for Dish and another unlabeled.  That's all I see that's new in the past six months.

I spot-checked a few in Albemarle and didn't see anything particularly new. 

- Trip

Picked up 5G UC again from the next tower over from what I connected to last time. Still same results only connected for 40-70 seconds this time. I have been talking to one of the managers from one of the third party stores here in Ch'ville. And he has said they are testing process. And should be up and running by the end of June. But he's actually leaving T-MO at the end of this week for a better job. Which sucks because I loose my intel on stuff thats going on in Ch'ville/Albemarle.