Comments related to the NV Running List Thread

[MacinJosh]

I love that suggestion. However, I hate the fact that Sprint doesn't have flexibility to spend more money to acquire more spectrum at this time. Right now they sprint needs to get Network Vision ASAP to as many markets. Any extra funds needs to be directed to Network Vision.

 

I know. I hate it too.

[lordsutch]

Although I don't know much about SouthernLINC, I understand they have a very loyal following. And they will be the last bastion of iDEN left. Which still remains popular for what it is. However, SL is going to start having problems getting devices built for a decent cost with the world's largest iDEN network shutting down.

 

SouthernLINC is probably so integrated with Southern Company's operations - essentially they're selling the public excess capacity on their own internal communications network that supports their various power company subsidiaries - that I can't see them selling the spectrum outright with nothing to replace it.

 

On the other hand, I don't think SouthernLINC has the spectrum holdings to stage a transition to anything else (absent just shutting down the iDEN network and putting up something else overnight), and without Nextel they'll no longer be able to sell national roaming plans, so they may have to partner with someone to migrate to a more widely supported PTT system; Sprint would be the obvious choice given that they're the only carrier that would value ESMR 800 spectrum as part of a deal and has the spectrum holdings to overbuild the whole existing SouthernLINC network, and it would give them the full ESMR spectrum in the overlapping markets including Atlanta where they definitely will need it, but Sprint would be picking up a lot of rural territory that they seem to be content to leave to C Spire and VZW/former Alltel roaming now.

[Madfelon]

Robert you mentioned a few weeks back that you were going to do a write up about the Chicago area NV build. Any news on it?

[4ringsnbr]

Sprint currently in some markets maybe has enough 800 Mhz spectrum available to deploy a single 1xA carrier. Even now only the 817-820 Mhz is available in some markets since most if not all of the 821-824 Mhz is still be rebanded. I think by the time Sprint will be done with rebanding the entire ESMR 800 Mhz band and moving all the customers off of iDEN, they could just deploy LTE. I know it hasn't been approved yet but I would imagine that it wouldn't take that long to get FCC approval. I fully expect to hear a FCC approval before mid 2013. I don't see the point of putting EVDO at 800 Mhz when it will only be used for a very short time.

 

Hesse has clearly said in conferences that they plan to use 10 Mhz out of the 14 Mhz at 800 Mhz for LTE so we know that it will be a 5x5 configuration.

 

You're forgetting that with the SDRs (post-NV), changing from EVDO to LTE (or vice versa) on a radio is a remote flash operation (supposedly). It will take them no effort at all to turn on and off EVDO carriers to maximize their use of their own spectrum when time / conditions demand-- for example, when iDEN is still running, but you can corner it down to use half of the band and afford to run 1xA and EVDO in ESMR for a year or so-- this would be easily done with the new gear and wouldn't require a truck roll or hardware change to go back-and-forth between EV and LTE as needed (in theory).

 

Also, you're giving Dan Hesse too much credit for even being aware of what's going on-- he's a CEO. Remember the CTO that works for him (Stephen Bye) famously said in an interview that Sprint's network was ready for and could handle the iPhone with no issue and that their partnership with Ericsson made them able to respond instantly to carrier / backhaul needs. I literally ROFLMAO when I read that-- their network can't handle the phones they have now (pre-iPhone), and it took them over a year after initiating an upgrade "project" to even touch our towers that were running under 10 kilobits! These execs aren't always in touch with all the details-- they're big picture guys.

[ericdabbs]

You're forgetting that with the SDRs (post-NV), changing from EVDO to LTE (or vice versa) on a radio is a remote flash operation (supposedly). It will take them no effort at all to turn on and off EVDO carriers to maximize their use of their own spectrum when time / conditions demand-- for example, when iDEN is still running, but you can corner it down to use half of the band and afford to run 1xA and EVDO in ESMR for a year or so-- this would be easily done with the new gear and wouldn't require a truck roll or hardware change to go back-and-forth between EV and LTE as needed (in theory).

 

Also, you're giving Dan Hesse too much credit for even being aware of what's going on-- he's a CEO. Remember the CTO that works for him (Stephen Bye) famously said in an interview that Sprint's network was ready for and could handle the iPhone with no issue and that their partnership with Ericsson made them able to respond instantly to carrier / backhaul needs. I literally ROFLMAO when I read that-- their network can't handle the phones they have now (pre-iPhone), and it took them over a year after initiating an upgrade "project" to even touch our towers that were running under 10 kilobits! These execs aren't always in touch with all the details-- they're big picture guys.

 

I never have forgotten that the radios were software defined radios and that it could be reprogrammed by flashing between CDMA and EVDO. That is not the point. My point is that Sprint right now does not have that much spectrum in the 800 Mhz that is completely free due to the continuous rebanding in each market from 821-824 Mhz. At most you have 3 Mhz from 817-820 Mhz to run a single 1xA carrier right now. Just because the radios can be remotely programmed between EVDO and LTE doesn't mean its going to be so simple as in a 5 minute job. I am sure there is more effort than just flashing and probably is not as simplistic as you think it is. A bunch of settings need to be set and additional drive tests by the engineers need to be done to verify the performance. Honestly I don't think Sprint has the overhead to do be doing this when their Network Vision crews should be focusing on building out more markets. I just can't see Sprint deploying EVDO at 800 Mhz and Robert has said that EVDO at 800 Mhz is not in the cards for Network Vision. I know that if you ran Sprint you would make decisions much differently than Hesse.

 

I never bought into the whole "Sprint is ready for the iPhone" network traffic load bit. I never said that Sprint could easily handle the iPhone traffic. I knew that they couldn't handle it currently despite additional T1 lines but Sprint couldn't afford to get behind any further to Verizon and ATT who had the iPhone. But from the Q4 CDMA postpaid add results, you can tell that the iPhone did help a lot despite the crappy network.

[S4GRU]

Robert you mentioned a few weeks back that you were going to do a write up about the Chicago area NV build. Any news on it?

 

I did? Hmmm. I keep a log of articles to write. I only see one mentioning Chicago, and it has a low priority. And one article must be written before it for it to make sense. I wouldn't expect it earlier than 7 days from now.

 

But its not a comprehensive overview of work in the Chicago market. That's already been done. It will be a schedule clarification. There has been a significant NV deployment reprioritization that occurred in February. And I think its a good idea. More info to follow.

 

Robert

[Sgt. Slaughter]

I don't disagree. However, in the testing data I saw for the new LTE devices we reported about this weekend, each had a field that said "3MHz LTE Channel Support?" All three were marked "Y".

 

I also know that in Atlanta, the 1xA carrier is at Channel 526, instead of 476 like in most markets. So when I consider the amount of SMR spectrum left beyond the 1xA carrier, to me, I draw the conclusion that Sprint must be planning a 3x3 LTE carrier on 800 in places they put the 1xA carrier at Channel 526.

 

That's the only deduction I can take from the information I have.

 

Robert

 

interesting though as I thought we had concluded antennae tech was going to make it difficult to add another band for use at this point? bigger device? or am i missing something again? lol

 

Interesting to see 800MHz get set on device before 2.5GHz with Clear set to have 5k sites up by middle next no?

[Denny]

There has been a significant NV deployment reprioritization that occurred in February. And I think its a good idea. More info to follow.

 

Robert

 

Hmmm.... Interesting that with all the planing and scheduling complete, Sprint would reprioritize. Anxious to hear more.

 

Denny

 

Sent from my EVO View using Forum Runner

[S4GRU]

interesting though as I thought we had concluded antennae tech was going to make it difficult to add another band for use at this point? bigger device? or am i missing something again? lol

 

Interesting to see 800MHz get set on device before 2.5GHz with Clear set to have 5k sites up by middle next no?

 

800 CDMA is supported by many devices now. 800 LTE will require more engineering to get into devices. 800 LTE is not expected to be in any Sprint devices in 2012.

 

Robert

[S4GRU]

Hmmm.... Interesting that with all the planing and scheduling complete, Sprint would reprioritize. Anxious to hear more.

 

Denny

 

Sent from my EVO View using Forum Runner

 

Denny:

 

You will see what I mean. It's more of a spreading out resources for a better outcome. It's nothing earth shattering. But it is game changing for Sprint. I have eluded to it in chats already. I am going to try to cover it more in depth and how it relates to every first round market soon. More details to follow in articles. And it's going to allow Phoenix, Cleveland, Tucson/Yuma and Milwaukee to move up a little.

 

I am a significant bottle neck in this enterprise!

 

Robert

[Denny]

 

And it's going to allow Phoenix' date=' Cleveland, Tucson/Yuma and Milwaukee to move up a little.

 

I am a significant bottle neck in this enterprise!

 

Robert[/quote']

 

Anything that allows I Phoenix to move up a bit

 

Sent from my EVO View using Forum Runner

[omega]

Robert,

 

That will be an interesting read, one would think they would upgrade the core network first and then the towers.

[Sgt. Slaughter]

800 CDMA is supported by many devices now. 800 LTE will require more engineering to get into devices. 800 LTE is not expected to be in any Sprint devices in 2012.

 

Robert

 

Robert,

 

I am very aware of the 800MHz support in current devices for CDMA. I was more commenting on that you posted there that you saw devices stating:

... in the testing data I saw for the new LTE devices we reported about this weekend, each had a field that said "3MHz LTE Channel Support?" All three were marked "Y"

Just thought it was interesting that they would have those devices as supporting 3MHz LTE Channel in 800MHz already...or really any other device supporting it before 2.5GHz is supported as thats supposed to be live next yr too...

 

The 3 devices reported on were Galaxy Nexus, LG Viper, HTC Jet.... which none have gone through FCC approved at 800MHz LTE use.... So I assume its about 3 other devices in testing OR they plan on being able to resend these devices through FCC for re-cert approval for 800MHz LTE once they get the approval to convert that spectrum over?....BUT yet that doesn't make sense to do that since devices are out certified already for 800 CDMA use while that hadn't been approved at their release either yet officially...

 

 

Really more interested in how they did it with new antennae's or something else...

OR are they planning on doing the 3MHz LTE in 800 with LTE advanced and would that allow the use of only 1 antennae needed for both 1900MHZ and 800MHz if both LTE-Advanced?

 

Or am I missing it completely? Just find it odd they would check off as supporting that when they didn't go through FCC as such, or if its different devices then why 800 is there and not 2.5?

[4ringsnbr]

 

The 3 devices reported on were Galaxy Nexus, LG Viper, HTC Jet.... which none have gone through FCC approved at 800MHz LTE use.... So I assume its about 3 other devices in testing OR they plan on being able to resend these devices through FCC for re-cert approval for 800MHz LTE once they get the approval to convert that spectrum over?

 

It isn't a matter of retesting. The LG Viper and GNex do NOT have the preamps & LNAs (or the independent antenna) to do LTE in any other band besides PCS. In order to do any other band, they would have to have a preamp/LNA, diplexer & filter transmitter IC added to the circuit board then either new antennas added or possibly share the CDMA/EVDO antennas if the Rx diversity spacing is correct for that band. These two phones tested do not have the physical hardware to ever support any other LTE bands.

[S4GRU]

Robert,

 

I am very aware of the 800MHz support in current devices for CDMA. I was more commenting on that you posted there that you saw devices stating:

 

Just thought it was interesting that they would have those devices as supporting 3MHz LTE Channel in 800MHz already...or really any other device supporting it before 2.5GHz is supported as thats supposed to be live next yr too...

 

The 3 devices reported on were Galaxy Nexus, LG Viper, HTC Jet.... which none have gone through FCC approved at 800MHz LTE use.... So I assume its about 3 other devices in testing OR they plan on being able to resend these devices through FCC for re-cert approval for 800MHz LTE once they get the approval to convert that spectrum over?....BUT yet that doesn't make sense to do that since devices are out certified already for 800 CDMA use while that hadn't been approved at their release either yet officially...

 

 

Really more interested in how they did it with new antennae's or something else...

OR are they planning on doing the 3MHz LTE in 800 with LTE advanced and would that allow the use of only 1 antennae needed for both 1900MHZ and 800MHz if both LTE-Advanced?

 

Or am I missing it completely? Just find it odd they would check off as supporting that when they didn't go through FCC as such, or if its different devices then why 800 is there and not 2.5?

 

You are very observant!!! Kudos.

 

The devices marked yes to being able to support 3MHz LTE channels were all LTE 1900 devices. Does this mean they can physically support 800 LTE now, but not being tested that way? Unlikely. 4rings would tell you no, for certain.

 

I don't know any more details other than that category that is listed on all Sprint devices that go into lab testing. We are just speculating what it means. Since we are going deep into speculation land, I will take a stab at it...

 

My guess is that Sprint has requested to all of it's OEMs to include 3MHz channel support in all of its LTE Band Classes. Even 1900.

 

That's my guess. So even though these three devices (actually six devices ) don't appear to need 3MHz LTE at a glance, maybe they actually do. Maybe Sprint is thinking about adding some 3x3 PCS LTE carriers in A-F blocks? They have enough spectrum in many markets where they could do that.

 

It's not far fetched. If the single 5x5 LTE carrier starts to get burdened down to the performance of a 3x3 LTE carrier, why not add a 3x3 LTE carrier on PCS in A-F for additional capacity? Remember, even when 800MHz gets turned on in 2013, these first LTE devices won't be able to run on it. What will they use for additional capacity? My theory...some additional PCS 3x3's.

 

This is definitely speculative. I will keep scouring the data I have. I may already have the answer and just don't know it at the moment. AJ and I discovered we had some answers on a related subject yesterday, and just didn't realize it.

 

Robert

[Sgt. Slaughter]

 

It isn't a matter of retesting. The LG Viper and GNex do NOT have the preamps & LNAs (or the independent antenna) to do LTE in any other band besides PCS. In order to do any other band, they would have to have a preamp/LNA, diplexer & filter transmitter IC added to the circuit board then either new antennas added or possibly share the CDMA/EVDO antennas if the Rx diversity spacing is correct for that band. These two phones tested do not have the physical hardware to ever support any other LTE bands.

 

Which is why I asked to begin with as it didn't make sense...

 

Even with LTE-Advanced on both 1900 and 800 am I right in that they still would need separate antennae hardware to pull from both?...

 

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk

[MaxPower]

I too am a Phoenix Sprint customer. Sprint serves my needs and I don't believe I will use my device any differently when LTE comes to town. Yes it will be fun to play with the speeds but in the end.....

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Denny

 

Sent from my EVO 3D using Forum Runner

 

I don't really care about LTE and 4G speeds right now, I just want useful 3G. There are very few spots in the Phoenix area where I can get speeds faster than 400kbps, I would say I average around 100kbps. Right now I ran a few speed tests and I'm getting about 20kbps. That's just not going to do, not when my bill is going to go up an additional $30/month if I renew and activate 3 smartphones and not when I can get much much better coverage with T-Mobile for just $5/month.

[4ringsnbr]

If they need to use 3x3 carriers in PCS, they should retest the Viper and GNex. If you noticed the bottom and top frequencies tested were center channels of a 5x5 at the bottom of PCS A and top of PCS G. In order to consider a 3x3, the bottom tested frequency would need to be 1 MHz lower (for a 3x3 in A block) and the top one would have to be 1 MHz higher (for a 3x3 in G block). Since a couple of Ev carriers will carry more data in a 2.5 MHz swath than a 3x3 will (in 3 MHz), this wouldn't be a smart move.

[S4GRU]

I don't really care about LTE and 4G speeds right now, I just want useful 3G. There are very few spots in the Phoenix area where I can get speeds faster than 400kbps, I would say I average around 100kbps. Right now I ran a few speed tests and I'm getting about 20kbps. That's just not going to do, not when my bill is going to go up an additional $30/month if I renew and activate 3 smartphones and not when I can get much much better coverage with T-Mobile for just $5/month.

 

I don't think anyone will disagree with your statement. Sprint has the solutions worked out, the plan is in place and it's being implemented. Unfortunately, they cannot get to every corner of the country first. The cavalry is coming to Phoenix. The horses just can't handle the hot summers.

 

Robert

[Sgt. Slaughter]

 

You are very observant!!! Kudos.

 

The devices marked yes to being able to support 3MHz LTE channels were all LTE 1900 devices. Does this mean they can physically support 800 LTE now, but not being tested that way? Unlikely. 4rings would tell you no, for certain.

 

I don't know any more details other than that category that is listed on all Sprint devices that go into lab testing. We are just speculating what it means. Since we are going deep into speculation land, I will take a stab at it...

 

My guess is that Sprint has requested to all of it's OEMs to include 3MHz channel support in all of its LTE Band Classes. Even 1900.

 

That's my guess. So even though these three devices (actually six devices ) don't appear to need 3MHz LTE at a glance, maybe they actually do. Maybe Sprint is thinking about adding some 3x3 PCS LTE carriers in A-F blocks? They have some spectrum in some markets where they could do that.

 

It's not far fetched. If the single 5x5 LTE carrier starts to get burdened down to the performance of a 3x3 LTE carrier, why not add a 3x3 LTE carrier on PCS in A-F for additional capacity? Remember, even when 800MHz gets turned on in 2013, these first LTE devices won't be able to run on it. What will they use for additional capacity? My theory...some additional PCS 3x3's.

 

This is definitely speculative. I will keep scouring the data I have. I may already have the answer and just don't know it at the moment.

 

Robert

 

Okay now we are getting somewhere and on the same page. LOL

 

I'm all about details on this hence the catch and confusion on my part...I guess I assumed too far bc 3MHz LTE doesn't mean 3MHz LTE on 800MHz...

 

Though the fact they have that marked down at all is what caused me to assume it...did they also have 5x5MHz LTE marked as supported? If not then maybe 3MHz is just how they r testing it? If that's listed too then we continue speculating away. Lol

 

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk

[4ringsnbr]

Which is why I asked to begin with as it didn't make sense...

 

Even with LTE-Advanced on both 1900 and 800 am I right in that they still would need separate antennae hardware to pull from both?...

 

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk

 

Yes-- all LTE-Advanced does is combine the various bands and channels your phone can use into one data pipe, which is why it WON'T work with Clearwire's 2.5 GHz LTE since that network will have a different subnet, IP & gateway. But on Sprint, if they run say a 5x5 carrier in G block PCS and a 10x10 in A block PCS, the phone could use its single PCS antenna array to combine the two carriers and offer a peak speed of up to 108 mbps. If they ever approve LTE in ESMR and the phone had separate electronics and antenna arrays to work in that band and a baseband that supports inter-band aggregation, then you could combine an ESMR and a PCS LTE carrier in the same way-- as long as your signal held on the PCS channel of course. But the phone would have to be capable of both bands on its own first with hardware (and FCC testing of course).

[S4GRU]

If they need to use 3x3 carriers in PCS, they should retest the Viper and GNex. If you noticed the bottom and top frequencies tested were center channels of a 5x5 at the bottom of PCS A and top of PCS G. In order to consider a 3x3, the bottom tested frequency would need to be 1 MHz lower (for a 3x3 in A block) and the top one would have to be 1 MHz higher (for a 3x3 in G block). Since a couple of Ev carriers will carry more data in a 2.5 MHz swath than a 3x3 will (in 3 MHz), this wouldn't be a smart move.

 

Understood. However, I have seen on those mentioned devices the lab reports where they say they can support 3MHz LTE channels. Also, I just came across LTE FIT performance reports from Ericsson, A/L and Samsung in the field where they acknowledge they are prepared to support 3MHz LTE channels. I sure wish one of these references mentioned band!!!

 

Robert

[4ringsnbr]

Understood. However, I have seen on those mentioned devices the lab reports where they say they can support 3MHz LTE channels. Also, I just came across LTE FIT performance reports from Ericsson, A/L and Samsung in the field where they acknowledge they are prepared to support 3MHz LTE channels. I sure wish one of these references mentioned band!!!

 

Robert

Since LTE is not approved by the FCC for use in ESMR, it CANNOT be used in a FIT test. Its use would only be allowed in an RF shielded laboratory environment. In the FIT tests, they're actually broadcasting on public airwaves, so LTE use in PCS would be allowed as would CDMA/EVDO in ESMR, but they wouldn't allow any LTE broadcasts in ESMR until that approval happens.

[S4GRU]

Yes-- all LTE-Advanced does is combine the various bands and channels your phone can use into one data pipe, which is why it WON'T work with Clearwire's 2.5 GHz LTE since that network will have a different subnet, IP & gateway. But on Sprint, if they run say a 5x5 carrier in G block PCS and a 10x10 in A block PCS, the phone could use its single PCS antenna array to combine the two carriers and offer a peak speed of up to 108 mbps. If they ever approve LTE in ESMR and the phone had separate electronics and antenna arrays to work in that band and a baseband that supports inter-band aggregation, then you could combine an ESMR and a PCS LTE carrier in the same way-- as long as your signal held on the PCS channel of course. But the phone would have to be capable of both bands on its own first with hardware (and FCC testing of course).

 

 

This is an under-reported aspect of combining such dissimilar frequencies into LTE Advanced. You will only be able to get the advantages of LTE Advanced carrier aggregation if you are in good range of both the 800 signal and the 1900 signal.

 

If you are in range of just the 800, you would just run on the lower standard 5x5 carrier. You would likely need to have a good LTE 1900 signal to boot. There will be lots of places where you will get a mediocre 1900 and good 800. And these areas will not llikely be good for LTE Advanced and aggregated carriers.

 

Robert

[S4GRU]

Since LTE is not approved by the FCC for use in ESMR, it CANNOT be used in a FIT test. Its use would only be allowed in an RF shielded laboratory environment. In the FIT tests, they're actually broadcasting on public airwaves, so LTE use in PCS would be allowed as would CDMA/EVDO in ESMR, but they wouldn't allow any LTE broadcasts in ESMR until that approval happens.

 

Prepared to support and actually performing testing are two different things. I started looking through the FIT schedules and I could not locate a single one that said 800 LTE testing. There is indeed 800 CDMA testing that is occurring in FIT's though.

 

However, FCC approval of 800 wideband operations is emminent. http://s4gru.com/index.php?/blog/1/entry-90-fcc-ready-to-give-sprint-official-go-ahead-on-smr-800-mhz-wideband-operation/

 

And I don't think we are certain that a yet separate approval to use LTE in that band would be required on top of that.

 

Robert