COUNTDOWN!!! Nextel iDEN Shutdown

[dnwk]

What is IBEZ?

 

I think he may mean "how many of the 39k sites will eventually have 800?" To which I think the answer is "as long as you're not in IBEZ, you'll see 800. Also, some urban sites, being spaced at closer than PCS, will not ALL have 800, though you will see 800 assuming not in IBEZ"

[supert0nes]

I have a question about the 800 MHz network. As of 7/5 there are only 376 3G/800 and 846 3G/800/4G sites for a total of 1222 sites. Is this because Sprint waited until iDen was shut down to begin adding 800? My biggest question is how many NV sites will eventually be upgraded with 800? All of them, or only some? Also, since the network was already in place, but not necessarily part of NV, are there more than the listed 1222 800 MHz sites operating? Thanks.

 

This is from the Everything 800 thread, which is probably a good thread to look for information about 800 deployments.  Obviously this doesn't count if you are in an IBEZ region.  Also the LTE 800 number maybe will go up with the investment from Softbank.

 

Sprint is adding CDMA 800 on approximately 95% of sites, and they are targeting LTE 800 on 80% of sites.

 

Robert

[maximus1987/lou99]

What is IBEZ?

 

[juant87]

http://www.800ta.org/_img/figures/img_canadamap.jpg

 

http://www.800ta.org/_img/figures/img_mbrmap.jpg

The Canadian map is more colorful

 

 

Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk

[ericdabbs]

http://www.800ta.org/_img/figures/img_canadamap.jpg

 

http://www.800ta.org/_img/figures/img_mbrmap.jpg

 

How the heck are the areas around northern Ohio allowed to deploy 800 CDMA sites if its within the Canadian IBEZ zone?  On the NV complete sites it shows them as 3G/800 complete.

[Dkoellerwx]

How the heck are the areas around northern Ohio allowed to deploy 800 CDMA sites if its within the Canadian IBEZ zone?  On the NV complete sites it shows them as 3G/800 complete.

As far as we know, they are deploying 800MHz CDMA on lower power in an effort to transition users over to that network while they convert the PCS CDMA network over to NV to try and mitigate the dropped call issue that occurred in Chicago due to the NV Samsung - Legacy Motorola handoff issue.

[maximus1987/lou99]

As far as we know, they are deploying 800MHz CDMA on lower power in an effort to transition users over to that network while they convert the PCS CDMA network over to NV to try and mitigate the dropped call issue that occurred in Chicago due to the NV Samsung - Legacy Motorola handoff issue.

Will they do the lower-power thing everywhere in IBEZ?

[ericdabbs]

As far as we know, they are deploying 800MHz CDMA on lower power in an effort to transition users over to that network while they convert the PCS CDMA network over to NV to try and mitigate the dropped call issue that occurred in Chicago due to the NV Samsung - Legacy Motorola handoff issue.

 

So does this mean that Sprint will keep the 800 CDMA network alive in that area once the NV transition is done?  I mean the 800 RRUs in the sites deployed is already a sunk cost.  Is a 800 CDMA lower power site equivalent to the distance of a 1900 CDMA site?  I understand the need to do this because of the Motorola handoff issue.  I am just surprised that they were allowed to do it.

[maximus1987/lou99]

So does this mean that Sprint will keep the 800 CDMA network alive in that area once the NV transition is done? I mean the 800 RRUs in the sites deployed is already a sunk cost. Is a 800 CDMA lower power site equivalent to the distance of a 1900 CDMA site? I understand the need to do this because of the Motorola handoff issue. I am just surprised that they were allowed to do it.

Why wouldn't they be allowed? Don't think that Canada gave Sprint a waiver to help out Sprint. From the little I've read about the IBEZ, there's an allowed power for transmitting.

 

Why would they remove it once they're done with PCS NV? If it's good enough to offload to during the transition then it's good enough to add capacity forever. If it only reaches as far as PCS, so what?

 

And if the power limits ever get rescinded, crank it up! No reason to remove it because, as you said, it's a sunken cost.

 

 

[maximus1987/lou99]

Why is the IBEZ so big?

I thought signals only reach a few miles at best.

Post 478: it extends 100km into America.

Why? I feel so violated!

[S4GRU]

So does this mean that Sprint will keep the 800 CDMA network alive in that area once the NV transition is done? I mean the 800 RRUs in the sites deployed is already a sunk cost. Is a 800 CDMA lower power site equivalent to the distance of a 1900 CDMA site? I understand the need to do this because of the Motorola handoff issue. I am just surprised that they were allowed to do it.

It is believed they will stay. Sprint is not prohibited from broadcasting in the IBEZ. They just cannot interfere with the foreign broadcasters. They can coordinate with the license holders across the border, reduce power of transmissions, etc.

 

Likely, the license holder of Channel 476 on the Canadian side has agreed to allow Sprint to deploy CDMA 800 in Ohio, as they may not even be actively using that specific frequency currently.

 

Robert from Note 2 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

[S4GRU]

Why is the IBEZ so big?I thought signals only reach a few miles at best.Post 476: it extends 100km into America. Why? I feel so violated!

I think the IBEZ was established considering narrowband, narrowbeam broadcasts from very tall towers...over flat terrain and water. Basically the absolute worst case scenario. Not likely deployment scenarios in 95% of instances.

 

Also, do not confuse usable signal strengths with interfering signal strengths. We tend to think that the signal stops at -110dBm. But they keep going. -120dBm. -130dBm. -140dBm. It's still there, it's just not usable to send data through between two points.

 

Robert from Note 2 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

[maximus1987/lou99]

I think the IBEZ was established considering narrowband, narrowbeam broadcasts from very tall towers...over flat terrain and water. Basically the absolute worst case scenario. Not likely deployment scenarios in 95% of instances.

 

Also, do not confuse usable signal strengths with interfering signal strengths. We tend to think that the signal stops at -110dBm. But they keep going. -120dBm. -130dBm. -140dBm. It's still there, it's just not usable to send data through between two points.

 

Robert from Note 2 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Is the huge zone something special with narrow band signals bordering LTE, CDMA?

 

When Mexico starts transmitting 700 MHz APT, will that produce equally onerous IBEZs for American 700 MHz near the border?

Or because they are similar-type signals, everything will be alright?

[S4GRU]

Is the huge zone something special with narrow band signals bordering LTE, CDMA?

 

When Mexico starts transmitting 700 MHz APT, will that produce equally onerous IBEZs for American 700 MHz near the border?

Or because they are similar-type signals, everything will be alright?

I don't have the answers you seek. However, 700MHz band plan coordination has already been worked out with Canada and Mexico.

 

Robert from Note 2 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

[WiWavelength]

Wireless spectrum coordination across international boundaries is not always difficult.

 

For one example, Cellular 850 MHz and PCS 1900 MHz usage in the border zones has been a non issue for many years.  Regulations set downlink field strength limits at the border, and basically, that was that.  It also did not hurt that Cellular and PCS mobiles are rather power limited (7 W and 2 W, respectively) with cdmaOne/CDMA2000 and W-CDMA mobiles transmitting at only small fractions of those max ERP/EIRP figures.  But, most of all, Cellular and PCS are entirely commercial operations -- Public Safety is not a factor.

 

SMR 800 MHz is another story entirely.  Public Safety is the elephant in the room, thus must be protected from interference.  Furthermore, Public Safety operates exclusively over narrowband channels, which are more susceptible to catastrophic co channel interference.  And, to add one more complicating factor, SMR mobiles can transmit up to 100 W.  For those reasons, international channel coordination was an absolute necessity.

 

Now, however, Sprint is refarming its SMR 800 MHz spectrum from narrowband iDEN to broadband CDMA1X and LTE.  Because of their broadband nature, those airlinks -- especially when deployed on relatively low sites -- are less likely to cause significant interference to narrowband operations on the other side of the border.  If anything, the concern goes the other direction.  The high power, high site narrowband operations are more likely to interfere with the low power broadband operations.  But if Sprint is will to accept the possibility of some interference, then Sprint may have been able to gain permission from the Canadians to utilize in parts of Ohio all 51 narrowband channels centered around SMR 476.  Of course, having Lake Erie as a buffer certainly helps matters.

 

AJ

[njjdnt]

  Of course, having Lake Erie as a buffer certainly helps matters.

 

 

All the pollution in the Lake Erie makes an excellent buffer.  Lake Superior on the other hand has pristine clear blue water.  Don't ya know that then? 

[WiWavelength]

All the pollution in the Lake Erie makes an excellent buffer.  Lake Superior on the other hand has pristine clear blue water.  Don't ya know that then? 

 

Are you sure Lake Superior is that "pristine"?

 

 

AJ

[DaQue]

Are you sure Lake Superior is that "pristine"?

 

 

AJ

All that needs is a "contains post consumer recycled materials" warning.

[jefbal99]

Are you sure Lake Superior is that "pristine"?

 

 

AJ

When I was there last week, it was beautifully clear

[iansltx]

Or maybe Telus (with their iDEN Mike service...I wonder how long they'll keep that around) has SMR licenses around channel 475, so Sprint just had to coordinate with them. Which probably just involved a favorable CDMA roaming deal, or maybe shipping over a bunch of Nextel phones at no charge

 

Here's what Telus's coverage map looks like; there are areas where IBEZ issues could certainly arise, but for Ohio it doesn't look like a big deal:

 

http://businessmobility.telus.com/en/ON/Canada/mike.shtml?skipRedirect

[iansltx]

Speaking of Telus Mike, looks like they'll be throwing in the towel on their network in a couple years:

 

http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php/1800369-Telus-mike-will-shutdown-in-2015

 

...which, according to the Loxcell tower map, consists of 2547 sites. 715 of which are in the Toronto metro area, plus 418 in Montreal, plus 224 in Vancouver.

 

My guess is that Telus isn't in a hurry to kill iDEN because they don't think that HSPA+ is the right way to do a PTT successor to iDEN...and they have a fair number of PTT customers...so they're waiting things out until LTE. Plus, they've got a good shot at 700MHz spectrum in the upcoming (still upcoming?) Canadian wireless auction, as they're effectively Verizon north of the border (until Verizon, say, buys Mobilicity). And they have AWS, PCS and Cellular spectrum set up.

 

Speaking of spectrum, here's what 20x20 LTE can do. Hopefully 2x20 TD-LTE arrives before too long...

 

http://www.howardforums.com/attachment.php?s=ac545a7b5ab2d20ffcd0e6dae81b72be&attachmentid=94464&d=1372868632

[maximus1987/lou99]

Speaking of Telus Mike, looks like they'll be throwing in the towel on their network in a couple years:

 

http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php/1800369-Telus-mike-will-shutdown-in-2015

 

...which, according to the Loxcell tower map, consists of 2547 sites. 715 of which are in the Toronto metro area, plus 418 in Montreal, plus 224 in Vancouver.

 

My guess is that Telus isn't in a hurry to kill iDEN because they don't think that HSPA+ is the right way to do a PTT successor to iDEN...and they have a fair number of PTT customers...so they're waiting things out until LTE. Plus, they've got a good shot at 700MHz spectrum in the upcoming (still upcoming?) Canadian wireless auction, as they're effectively Verizon north of the border (until Verizon, say, buys Mobilicity). And they have AWS, PCS and Cellular spectrum set up.

 

Speaking of spectrum, here's what 20x20 LTE can do. Hopefully 2x20 TD-LTE arrives before too long...

 

http://www.howardforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94464&d=1372868632

Besides Telus, is there anyone else in Canada who is hindering with Sprint in IBEZ?

Public safety? Other Canadian carriers eh?

[maximus1987/lou99]

Why can't Sprint do PTT over LTE?

http://mobilesyrup.com/2012/10/11/bells-ptt-lte-network-to-go-live-in-the-first-half-of-2013/

[iansltx]

Why can't Sprint do PTT over LTE?

http://mobilesyrup.com/2012/10/11/bells-ptt-lte-network-to-go-live-in-the-first-half-of-2013/

They're doing exactly that already. Or EvDO. Or 1x.

 

sent via my SIII on Tapatalk 4 beta

 

 

[Paynefanbro]

Speaking of Telus Mike, looks like they'll be throwing in the towel on their network in a couple years:

 

http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php/1800369-Telus-mike-will-shutdown-in-2015

 

...which, according to the Loxcell tower map, consists of 2547 sites. 715 of which are in the Toronto metro area, plus 418 in Montreal, plus 224 in Vancouver.

 

My guess is that Telus isn't in a hurry to kill iDEN because they don't think that HSPA+ is the right way to do a PTT successor to iDEN...and they have a fair number of PTT customers...so they're waiting things out until LTE. Plus, they've got a good shot at 700MHz spectrum in the upcoming (still upcoming?) Canadian wireless auction, as they're effectively Verizon north of the border (until Verizon, say, buys Mobilicity). And they have AWS, PCS and Cellular spectrum set up.

 

Speaking of spectrum, here's what 20x20 LTE can do. Hopefully 2x20 TD-LTE arrives before too long...

 

http://www.howardforums.com/attachment.php?s=ac545a7b5ab2d20ffcd0e6dae81b72be&attachmentid=94464&d=1372868632

 

 

I remember seeing a Clearwire video where, with the 20Mhz TD-LTE network, they were able to get 80Mbps while moving and explained that through carrier aggregation they could easily reach 168Mbps.