Network Vision/LTE - Chicago Market

[nexgencpu]

$549 is required to access this un-congested LTE network with a LG G2, $449 for a Nexus 5.  I don't know about you but thats not even a remotely possible situation for me.  Sure if you happen to have the stars align and have a contract renewal coming, you can grab a G2 or Nexus 5 for less than $100 on a re-up.  But how many folks have no problem spending $500 at will for a phone just to access the better LTE than they have now, or have an expiring contract right now to get the tri band phones at an affordable price based on a re-up?

I was able to sell my Girlfriends GS3 on ebay for 160, and purchased the Nexus 5 off the play store for 349 basically a 190 purchase (230 after tax and shipping) but, its definitely not the ideal solution for everyone.

[Joeynach]

As I said before, Tmobile is rolling on LTE on AWS 1700/2100 and not LTE on PCS 1900 B2. What they are rolling out on PCS are HSPA+ and DC-HSPA+. 

 

Such widespread and high SNR points at external interference issues from adjacent frequencies so they might still be at fault. 

So if TMobile is to blame it would be related to their rollout of HSPA+ and DC-HSPA+ service, not LTE, got it.

[Joeynach]

The one thing I can tell you about SNR here in NYC, that speeds correlated almost 1 to 1 with SNR, and it fluctuated wildly on my HTC One. After I got my Nexus 5, that number was solidly sitting at 30, and never changed, probably due to either the way the new Triband radios work or signal check pro not properly reporting the numbers. But unfortunately after the latest update of Signal check that reading is no longer being displayed on my N5. 

Same, now that LTE is strong in most of Chicago, I have noticed speeds correlate directly proportional to SNR value.

[nexgencpu]

Same, now that LTE is strong in most of Chicago, I have noticed speeds correlate directly proportional to SNR value.

Looks like Chicago is also a sore spot for VZW 

 

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2427077,00.asp

[Dkoellerwx]

If LTE performance degradation is an issue after just 6-10 months of full deployment in Chicago, it will be an issue in other markets as well in the future as their deployment ramps up.  Getting to the root of the issue be it, capacity, spectrum, interference, whatever is important to the Sprint community, not just Chicago users.  If it happens here, it will happen somewhere else.

 

But other markets haven't crashed and burned a year after launch. This problem IS unique to Chicago. Kansas City doesn't have it. Dallas doesn't have it. Houston doesn't have it. LA doesn't have it. Whatever it is, it is unique to your area.

 

The one thing I can tell you about SNR here in NYC, that speeds correlated almost 1 to 1 with SNR, and it fluctuated wildly on my HTC One. After I got my Nexus 5, that number was solidly sitting at 30, and never changed, probably due to either the way the new Triband radios work or signal check pro not properly reporting the numbers. But unfortunately after the latest update of Signal check that reading is no longer being displayed on my N5. 

 

The Nexus 5 doesn't report SNR properly. You were not actually sitting at 30 all the time. That's why it was removed. 

 

$549 is required to access this un-congested LTE network with a LG G2, $449 for a Nexus 5.  I don't know about you but thats not even a remotely possible situation for me.  Sure if you happen to have the stars align and have a contract renewal coming, you can grab a G2 or Nexus 5 for less than $100 on a re-up.  But how many folks have no problem spending $500 at will for a phone just to access the better LTE than they have now, or have an expiring contract right now to get the tri band phones at an affordable price based on a re-up?

 

That's not true, you can get a Nexus 5 for $350 from the Google Play store. That's what I did. And I'm very happy I did, the LTE reception on this thing is incredible. 

[Joeynach]

But other markets haven't crashed and burned a year after launch. This problem IS unique to Chicago. Kansas City doesn't have it. Dallas doesn't have it. Houston doesn't have it. LA doesn't have it. Whatever it is, it is unique to your area.

If it is a capacity issue than its only a matter of time before other markets get over saturated like Chicago has then.  Remember Sprint marketed the crap out of this market as the most advanced and build out LTE network in their nationwide network.  Maybe too well if all the new LTE users and LTE devices have overloaded the network's capacity.  Who's to say that the next big marketed city won't see the same effects then?

[Joeynach]

That's not true, you can get a Nexus 5 for $350 from the Google Play store. That's what I did. And I'm very happy I did, the LTE reception on this thing is incredible. 

$350 (google) vs. $450 (sprint sticker price).  Still I argue how many of Sprint's customers are going to drop $350 out of pocket in an effort to "get back" the consistent LTE performance they had just 8 weeks ago with their current devices.  That still doesn't make sense to me. 

 

Thats like Comcast degrading or reducing my HDTV signal quality (to non HD standards), but telling me I can have access to my original and good working HDTV signal if I pay more for a newer box now.  

[Fraydog]

I have a clarification on the interference theory... The only way I can test it is to run a spectrum analyzer the next time I'm in Chicago. My hypothesis that I'm unable to test is interference from GSM stuffed into a DC-HSPA channel run by T-Mobile.

 

I don't know when the next time I'll be able to get up there will be though.

[Dkoellerwx]

$350 (google) vs. $450 (sprint sticker price).  Still I argue how many of Sprint's customers are going to drop $350 out of pocket in an effort to "get back" the consistent LTE performance they had just 8 weeks ago with their current devices.  That still doesn't make sense to me. 

 

Thats like Comcast degrading or reducing my HDTV signal quality (to non HD standards), but telling me I can have access to my original and good working HDTV signal if I pay more for a newer box now.  

 

The average user, no probably not. But an informed one may. Especially with it being unlocked. And with the number of people switching to One Up, you may see it happen faster than you think. 

[DsmIowaGuy]

If it is a capacity issue than its only a matter of time before other markets get over saturated like Chicago has then.  Remember Sprint marketed the crap out of this market as the most advanced and build out LTE network in their nationwide network.  Maybe too well if all the new LTE users and LTE devices have overloaded the network's capacity.  Who's to say that the next big marketed city won't see the same effects then?

 

I was in Chgo from Thurs to Sunday last weekend with my Iphone5.  In many ways it seemed like when I was in there this past May. Difference was that I was on LTE the whole time.  I didn't do many calls so those might have been great, but data was terrible. I even tried a couple speed tests around midnight one of those nights then up about 9 Sunday morning and still not good. Signal was always decent though. My experiences were in River North, Lakeview, Loop, Lincoln Park, Jefferson Park and South Loop. Most of the time in Lincoln Park and Lakeview.  I'm anxious how things will be when LTE is live on 800 and some traffic is able to move off 1900, then 2500 !!  That should be way good!!

[Vince]

Well, I'm waiting for 800 LTE with my iPhone 5s. I don't get how it will work, and I don't think anyone does. When would my phone be on 800? Having it only connect when pcs is weak wouldn't work too well since pcs LTE coverage is so prevalent in Chicago. Maybe an auto switch when you start using data? Who knows. But I'm on Joey's side. Their main bread and butter shouldn't be dead in the water already. The solution shouldn't be, "hey relax, we're adding several more bands." Pcs should be solid as a rock before moving forward and deliver their promised 6-8mbps...everywhere.

[DsmIowaGuy]

Well, I'm waiting for 800 LTE with my iPhone 5s. I don't get how it will work, and I don't think anyone does. When would my phone be on 800? Having it only connect when pcs is weak wouldn't work too well since pcs LTE coverage is so prevalent in Chicago. Maybe an auto switch when you start using data? Who knows. But I'm on Joey's side. Their main bread and butter shouldn't be dead in the water already. The solution shouldn't be, "hey relax, we're adding several more bands." Pcs should be solid as a rock before moving forward and deliver their promised 6-8mbps...everywhere.

 

 

As near as I can tell the 800 is fairly useless right now for us iPhone folks because of PRL that is making 1900 a priority and unless you completely loose 1900 signal it will not switch. Also keep in mind that LTE is not live on 800 yet outside of some testing areas.  However the first good thing is that LTE will start rolling out across 800 next Month December. Any tower that is complete on Network Vision (Not a GMO) will get this, it won't be a switch thrown as best as I understand but will take a little bit of time but within a few Months they are planning to have a huge % of the network done with LTE on 800 (again providing the site is a full build and NV has been done.)  The next issue however will be band priority. This seems to be a little more sketchy for me to get a straight answer on whether a PRL will be distributed at this point or not, there is pretty strong conversations on here and with a Sprint contact I have saying a new PRL pushed to everyone will not happen until a high percentage of the full network sites are NV complete.  So I think there will be roll out and LTE on 800 before many folks can use it. Of course there will be fringe edges of 1900 coverage you might switch eventually or a basement that you would normally roam (just like today on 800 Voice) but sounds like it might be further down the road for a PRL that will make 800/1900 equal.  Also supposedly a new system on the network end that will actually control all 3 bands and how those are distributed to devices depending on signal, etc.. will be coming late 2014 to 2015 which in theory will take priority on band usage over what a devices PRL might say.

 

Some good stuff coming though!  Sad thing is that when it's all rolled out it still won't be enough. All carriers are dealing with it and constant need for data use management and band utilization and for that matter owning enough spectrum. We are lucky with Sprint on how much spectrum they own and control especially with all the band class 41 stuff which is huge in a place like Chicago.  Even here in Des Moines the actual plan is that we'll even get band 41 stuff on many if not all NV sites in the Metro. We were only a Clearwire protection site with three locations but those will be removed and deployment on NV towers with new 25/2600 equipment which hopefully will start mid to late '14.

 

** Of course who knows how reality will go, things change often in technology and certainly can be impacted by many other things along the way. Not of the least being information that is released or leaked out.

[GooGooMuck]

The burbs are faring much better. I have been testing out demo devices in different locations and so far none have been having this bad of an issue with SNR (although still not good). Tested in Vernon Hills and Arlington heights on a G2 that was only band 25. In Arlington Heights RSRP was -99 and SNR was 5.1 (avg on 3 checks) with a download speed of 14Mbps and upload of about 5Mbps. Vernon Hills saw the same RSRP, but had a SNR in the high 19s. Data rate was about the same.

 

Today I stopped in a store in Skokie. The G2 was getting a RSRP of -88 with a SNR of only 2-3, data speeds were in the .5-3 Mbps range and upload was in the 3-4Mbps range.  Where it gets interesting is when I tested out the HTC One Max that had the Spark update. It connected to band 41 (311870) with a RSRP of -93 and a SNR of 23. Data speeds stayed consistantly in the mid 30Mbps range and uploads around 9Mbps.

 

Also worth noting is that the Walmart, I mean Spark icon only spins during data transfer.

[Dkoellerwx]

As near as I can tell the 800 is fairly useless right now for us iPhone folks because of PRL that is making 1900 a priority and unless you completely loose 1900 signal it will not switch. Also keep in mind that LTE is not live on 800 yet outside of some testing areas.  However the first good thing is that LTE will start rolling out across 800 next Month December. Any tower that is complete on Network Vision (Not a GMO) will get this, it won't be a switch thrown as best as I understand but will take a little bit of time but within a few Months they are planning to have a huge % of the network done with LTE on 800 (again providing the site is a full build and NV has been done.)  The next issue however will be band priority. This seems to be a little more sketchy for me to get a straight answer on whether a PRL will be distributed at this point or not, there is pretty strong conversations on here and with a Sprint contact I have saying a new PRL pushed to everyone will not happen until a high percentage of the full network sites are NV complete.  So I think there will be roll out and LTE on 800 before many folks can use it. Of course there will be fringe edges of 1900 coverage you might switch eventually or a basement that you would normally roam (just like today on 800 Voice) but sounds like it might be further down the road for a PRL that will make 800/1900 equal.  Also supposedly a new system on the network end that will actually control all 3 bands and how those are distributed to devices depending on signal, etc.. will be coming late 2014 to 2015 which in theory will take priority on band usage over what a devices PRL might say.

PRL's don't control LTE. Not sure if that's what you were saying, but just want to be clear. Thresholds are already set on Spark devices (+iPhone5s/c) for when to fall back to 800 LTE. It appears to be between -110 and -118dBM based on what happens when G2 users enable 800 LTE on their devices.

 

A new PRL prioritizing 1x800 over PCS will be pushed once 1x800 is live in the majority of a market, for most markets. At least for LTE devices. Non-LTE devices will see a new PRL that puts 1x800 and PCS on the same level, like it currently is for LTE devices.

[mhammett]

I'm okay with the existing 800/1900 setup.

 

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[DsmIowaGuy]

PRL's don't control LTE. Not sure if that's what you were saying, but just want to be clear. Thresholds are already set on Spark devices (+iPhone5s/c) for when to fall back to 800 LTE. It appears to be between -110 and -118dBM based on what happens when G2 users enable 800 LTE on their devices.

 

A new PRL prioritizing 1x800 over PCS will be pushed once 1x800 is live in the majority of a market, for most markets. At least for LTE devices. Non-LTE devices will see a new PRL that puts 1x800 and PCS on the same level, like it currently is for LTE devices.

 

Thanks WX for that clarification on PRL control.

 

What I had heard though about 800/1900 LTE will supposedly be equal (eventually) since most all devices would have better signal from 800 many times then flood that which would negatively impact those who truly need that extra bldg penetration or the extra distance on a fringe. I can't remember what it's called but they are supposedly working on a network controller system that will take care of that at the network level rather than device level to better utilize the band deployment - that should be way cool.

[Dkoellerwx]

Thanks WX for that clarification on PRL control.

 

What I had heard though about 800/1900 LTE will supposedly be equal (eventually) since most all devices would have better signal from 800 many times then flood that which would negatively impact those who truly need that extra bldg penetration or the extra distance on a fringe. I can't remember what it's called but they are supposedly working on a network controller system that will take care of that at the network level rather than device level to better utilize the band deployment - that should be way cool.

LTE preference will be 25/2600 > 1900 > 800. However, you are correct. The network optimization software will allow the network to dynamically push your device to another band if needed. If PCS is overloaded, and there's no TD-LTE around, you may get pushed to SMR to alleviate the stress.

[Joeynach]

So for those that beleive LTE performance degradation is highly correlated to capacity issues and overcrowding of the 1900 LTE band I have some evidence to support that

I left the city this evening and am currently sitting in an office in Flossmoor in the South Burbs and wow what a difference being in a quiet less congested suburb makes. Im getting consistent SNR values between 14-20, download speeds of 7-12 Mbps, and upload speeds of 3-5 Mbps.

[drock2750]

So for those that beleive LTE performance degradation is highly correlated to capacity issues and overcrowding of the 1900 LTE band I have some evidence to support that

I left the city this evening and am currently sitting in an office in Flossmoor in the South Burbs and wow what a difference being in a quiet less congested suburb makes. Im getting consistent SNR values between 14-20, download speeds of 7-12 Mbps, and upload speeds of 3-5 Mbps.

I've noticed isolated pockets of high SNR readings scattered around the city. If the T Mobile interference theory is correct, then SNR and speed would improve where T Mobile signal is weakest...until somebody makes a convincing case that network saturation hurts SNR, then I'm still not convinced lol. I was out in Elgin a few weeks ago and SNR was just as bad as in the city.

[Cubbiefan82]

I've noticed isolated pockets of high SNR readings scattered around the city. If the T Mobile interference theory is correct, then SNR and speed would improve where T Mobile signal is weakest...until somebody makes a convincing case that network saturation hurts SNR, then I'm still not convinced lol. I was out in Elgin a few weeks ago and SNR was just as bad as in the city.

What part of elgin? My parents live in elgin and I haven't seen any problems with snr around elgin lately?

[Joeynach]

I've noticed isolated pockets of high SNR readings scattered around the city. If the T Mobile interference theory is correct, then SNR and speed would improve where T Mobile signal is weakest...until somebody makes a convincing case that network saturation hurts SNR, then I'm still not convinced lol. I was out in Elgin a few weeks ago and SNR was just as bad as in the city.

Well then I just don't know, we keep going back and forth.  Everytime we get some evidence or an expert opinion for one explanation we get for another that makes sense a few days later.  Sheesh.  Maybe we need some media attention or something and let someone else do the heavy lifting for the purpose of breaking a story or something?

[mhammett]

In a properly synced system, same network data usage has no bearing on SNR.

 

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[mhammett]

In my industry, you cannot use the same frequency on adjacent sectors due to co-channel interference. The radio serving a given sector hears a given client that is in another sector at sufficient levels as to severely degrade SNR. Ninety degree sectors are very common so that you can alternate channels as you go around.

 

This is because a sector isn't exactly 90 degrees (or 120 in the mobile world). In my industry, the beamwidth is measured by where the signal falls 3 dB from peak. I believe mobile wireless measures at 6 dB. The signal doesn't stop there, however. It continues on, rolling off as it gets further away.

 

Could this be a contributor to the problems we're seeing in Chicago? LTE has a much higher SNR requirement, so maybe we're getting self-interference?

 

I'm just guessing as I don't know the radiation pattern of the antenna they're using. It would be a lesser issue until adjacent sectors were more busy on a more regular basis.

 

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[lonnierenda]

To all that contribute to this forum, I want to thank you.  I have been following this forum for about 18 months.  After a decade of being a Sprint customer (longer if you include when I used to buy long distance from them), I stopped September 2012 (had not been on contract for about a year).  

 

I bought the Galaxy Nexus and started using prepaid carriers.  I have tried three different ones (SimpleMobile, T-Mobile, AIO wireless).  Each had strengths and weaknesses, but all were better than Sprint when I left Sprint.  I liked Sprint a lot.  My first smartphone was on Sprint (HTC Hero) and then I upgraded to the HTC Evo (which I still think was years ahead of its time).  I happened to work in an area with Clearwire and thus I could use my phone a lot, especially tethering since nobody actually kept track of data usage on Clearwire until the very end.

 

I happen to be eligible for the student offer from Best Buy and Sprint.  So, I was considering getting the LG G2.  But, from the way it sounds, Sprint continues to have issues.  So, my question is is it worth me spending $600 on a phone to go back to Sprint for free service for a year (well like $180 for the year for the upgraded data and taxes)?  From the posts of the last two weeks, it seems like it would not be.  I spend most of my time in Waukegan, other parts of Lake County and the NW suburbs.

 

It seems that Sprint continues to have data and call issues, and I don't want that again.  Just to give an example, I have zero bars on T-Mobile in my office right now, but I still get 5.5 mbps upload and 3.8 down.  I only occasionally drop a call.  

 

So, thoughts on whether it is worth coming back to Sprint right now?

[tongboy]

To all that contribute to this forum, I want to thank you. I have been following this forum for about 18 months. After a decade of being a Sprint customer (longer if you include when I used to buy long distance from them), I stopped September 2012 (had not been on contract for about a year).

 

I bought the Galaxy Nexus and started using prepaid carriers. I have tried three different ones (SimpleMobile, T-Mobile, AIO wireless). Each had strengths and weaknesses, but all were better than Sprint when I left Sprint. I liked Sprint a lot. My first smartphone was on Sprint (HTC Hero) and then I upgraded to the HTC Evo (which I still think was years ahead of its time). I happened to work in an area with Clearwire and thus I could use my phone a lot, especially tethering since nobody actually kept track of data usage on Clearwire until the very end.

 

I happen to be eligible for the student offer from Best Buy and Sprint. So, I was considering getting the LG G2. But, from the way it sounds, Sprint continues to have issues. So, my question is is it worth me spending $600 on a phone to go back to Sprint for free service for a year (well like $180 for the year for the upgraded data and taxes)? From the posts of the last two weeks, it seems like it would not be. I spend most of my time in Waukegan, other parts of Lake County and the NW suburbs.

 

It seems that Sprint continues to have data and call issues, and I don't want that again. Just to give an example, I have zero bars on T-Mobile in my office right now, but I still get 5.5 mbps upload and 3.8 down. I only occasionally drop a call.

 

So, thoughts on whether it is worth coming back to Sprint right now?

It depends entirely on where you use it. In the suburbs it generally works well. I have not dropped a call in months.

 

Right now we seem to have some ridiculously slow LTE areas especially downtown. Otherwise EVDO seems to be usable ALMOST everywhere.

 

In Chicago Sprint is about to get an additional 20mhz in the PCS band from US cellular. All phones will be able to use that additional spectrum. I am crossing my fingers that LTE gets better then. The g2 will also be able to use additional LTE bands that are being fired up now in Chicago.

 

If you want to switch give it a shot for a couple weeks. If it doesn't work well in the areas you frequent then return everything and go back.

 

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