Network Vision/LTE - Chicago Market

[Joeynach]

It depends entirely on where you use it. In the suburbs it generally works well. I have not dropped a call in months. Right now we seem to have some ridiculously slow LTE areas especially downtown. Otherwise EVDO seems to be usable ALMOST everywhere. In Chicago Sprint is about to get an additional 20mhz in the PCS band from US cellular. All phones will be able to use that additional spectrum. I am crossing my fingers that LTE gets better then. The g2 will also be able to use additional LTE bands that are being fired up now in Chicago. If you want to switch give it a shot for a couple weeks. If it doesn't work well in the areas you frequent then return everything and go back. Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk

I agree with Tongboy's synopsis.

[hayzooos]

What part of elgin? My parents live in elgin and I haven't seen any problems with snr around elgin lately?

 

I live on the NE side of Elgin and SNR is usually pretty bad around there. I was driving b/w the Beverly and 25 exits last night and SNR was somewhere around 1.0-1.5. Data speeds were awful as expected. It could barely keep up with streaming ESPN Radio.

[WiWavelength]

I have followed some of the SINR concerns in this thread and will offer my honest assessment, which may or may not prove correct.

 

I would like to buy the external explanation -- T-Mobile PCS C block adjacent interference -- but I do not.  A 200 kHz FDD GSM channel at the upper edge of the PCS C block license should not cause sufficient interference to debilitate a 5 MHz FDD LTE carrier in the PCS G block.  Plus, with GSM frequency reuse, that GSM channel would be present on only one out of every 9-12 sectors.

 

Instead, I go with the "unlimited" data folly.  Like it or not, the original band 25 5 MHz FDD carrier is probably already hitting its capacity.  Only the additional band 26 5 MHz FDD single carrier and band 41 20 MHz TDD carrier(s) will fix this problem.  I wish that Sprint would act responsibly and ditch "unlimited" data, but then many of you would ditch Sprint out of spite.  So, we are stuck...

 

AJ

[Vince]

To all that contribute to this forum, I want to thank you. I have been following this forum for about 18 months. After a decade of being a Sprint customer (longer if you include when I used to buy long distance from them), I stopped September 2012 (had not been on contract for about a year).

 

I bought the Galaxy Nexus and started using prepaid carriers. I have tried three different ones (SimpleMobile, T-Mobile, AIO wireless). Each had strengths and weaknesses, but all were better than Sprint when I left Sprint. I liked Sprint a lot. My first smartphone was on Sprint (HTC Hero) and then I upgraded to the HTC Evo (which I still think was years ahead of its time). I happened to work in an area with Clearwire and thus I could use my phone a lot, especially tethering since nobody actually kept track of data usage on Clearwire until the very end.

 

I happen to be eligible for the student offer from Best Buy and Sprint. So, I was considering getting the LG G2. But, from the way it sounds, Sprint continues to have issues. So, my question is is it worth me spending $600 on a phone to go back to Sprint for free service for a year (well like $180 for the year for the upgraded data and taxes)? From the posts of the last two weeks, it seems like it would not be. I spend most of my time in Waukegan, other parts of Lake County and the NW suburbs.

 

It seems that Sprint continues to have data and call issues, and I don't want that again. Just to give an example, I have zero bars on T-Mobile in my office right now, but I still get 5.5 mbps upload and 3.8 down. I only occasionally drop a call.

 

So, thoughts on whether it is worth coming back to Sprint right now?

Yeah, it's really hit or miss with data in the city. Near my house in the western suburbs, data is fantastic, and acts like LTE and new CDMA equipment should. There are still some dead spots that should get fixed by 800 LTE once it activates. Sprint voice in Chicago and suburbs is fantastic, especially since we're almost completely converted to 800 voice. That's the differential with T-Mobile is voice. I had T-Mobile and had issues deep inside buildings with voice and data. Sprint wins on voice, by far. T-Mobile, as of right now wins on data speeds throughout, especially with an hspa+ network to fall back to. T-Mobile just activated 10x10 LTE on Tuesday, and I've confirmed this via screenshots from friends. That will make T-Mobile speeds generally faster. Like someone mentioned above, give it a run for your 14 day trial. See how it works where you go. You definitely want a new tri-band device on Sprint as 2500/2600 lte is fast, and on many towers in the Chicagoland area. With 800/2600 LTE still needing to come online/be built out, I would say sprint is a solid year away from a completed Chicago market, and that's if everything stays on schedule.

[tongboy]

I have followed some of the SINR concerns in this thread and will offer my honest assessment, which may or may not prove correct.

 

I would like to buy the external explanation -- T-Mobile PCS C block adjacent interference -- but I do not. A 200 kHz FDD GSM channel at the upper edge of the PCS C block license should not cause sufficient interference to debilitate a 5 MHz FDD LTE carrier in the PCS G block. Plus, with GSM frequency reuse, that GSM channel would be present on only one out of every 9-12 sectors.

 

Instead, I go with the "unlimited" data folly. Like it or not, the original band 25 5 MHz FDD carrier is probably already hitting its capacity. Only the additional band 26 5 MHz FDD single carrier and band 41 20 MHz TDD carrier(s) will fix this problem. I wish that Sprint would act responsibly and ditch "unlimited" data, but then many of you would ditch Sprint out of spite. So, we are stuck...

 

AJ

If it is a airlink capacity issue it is interesting how it destroys speeds regardless of how strong the rsrp is. I always observed with evdo you could fight through the noise if you got a stronger signal if the airlink was saturated (not backhaul)

 

It's a dangerous topic here but I really wish sprint would keep unlimited data but make it really expensive, then give you a credit based on how little data you use. My use depends a lot on if I am traveling which is very sporadic.

 

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[Vince]

Pardon my ignorance, but if and when Sprint implements the USCC spectrum for LTE here in Chicago, will that help with speeds in these really bogged down areas? Or does it simply boil down to what the fiber connection can handle.

[runagun]

Fiber can handle really any wireless needs for backhaul.  USCC spectrum will do a good job in holding the fort until 2.6ghz spectrum gets fully deployed. 

 

Pardon my ignorance, but if and when Sprint implements the USCC spectrum for LTE here in Chicago, will that help with speeds in these really bogged down areas? Or does it simply boil down to what the fiber connection can handle.

[tongboy]

Pardon my ignorance, but if and when Sprint implements the USCC spectrum for LTE here in Chicago, will that help with speeds in these really bogged down areas? Or does it simply boil down to what the fiber connection can handle.

It will without a doubt. Fiber, even with the cheapest equipment will do a gig. The backhaul provider would need to change the rate limit on the connection, which can be done remotely. Also, Based on what mhammett said low SNR is not caused by backhaul.

 

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[Vince]

It will without a doubt. Fiber, even with the cheapest equipment will do a gig. The backhaul provider would need to change the rate limit on the connection, which can be done remotely. Also, Based on what mhammett said low SNR is not caused by backhaul.

 

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So really, more spectrum will allow connected users a better experience? Or will it just allow more connections, or both?

[Vince]

And it just seems strange how an unloaded site can have a solid, almost 30mbps connection, and some sites can't top 100kbps here. Is there a correlation between high usage and degraded snr? How does a heavy site load turn a clean signal dirty like that?

[WiWavelength]

If it is a airlink capacity issue it is interesting how it destroys speeds regardless of how strong the rsrp is. I always observed with evdo you could fight through the noise if you got a stronger signal if the airlink was saturated (not backhaul)

RSRP is essentially a measure of pure signal strength. It indicates nothing about loading or interference.

 

It's a dangerous topic here but I really wish sprint would keep unlimited data but make it really expensive, then give you a credit based on how little data you use. My use depends a lot on if I am traveling which is very sporadic.

I fully agree. In fact, I put forth the data usage "incentive" idea a year or so ago. But I doubt that marketplace realities will allow Sprint to implement such a plan anytime soon.

 

AJ

[tongboy]

So really, more spectrum will allow connected users a better experience? Or will it just allow more connections, or both?

If Sprint does it right (armchair quarterback) and it's possible to deploy another 5x5 it should double the capacity. It should do both in theory...

 

The risk, is then people start using their unlimited data and we are right back here again.

 

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[Vince]

If Sprint does it right (armchair quarterback) and it's possible to deploy another 5x5 it should double the capacity. It should do both in theory...

 

The risk, is then people start using their unlimited data and we are right back here again.

 

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Seems about right. The same thing will probably happen with the other bands in due time. It took less than a year to saturate pcs data in Chicago. That was quick.

[tongboy]

RSRP is essentially a measure of pure signal strength. It indicates nothing about loading or interference.

 

 

Yeah, but then if RSRP is higher wouldn't to SNR be lower with the same amount of noise or is the "noise" being generated by the cell site transmitter broadcasting to other phones? There have been screenshots of an RSRP of around 70 but an SNR of 1 dB.

 

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[WiWavelength]

Yeah, but then if RSRP is higher wouldn't to SNR be lower with the same amount of noise or is the "noise" being generated by the cell site transmitter broadcasting to other phones? There have been screenshots of an RSRP of around 70 but an SNR of 1 dB.

 

I would expect that high RSRP but low SINR halfway between two loaded sectors on the same site or on adjacent sites.

 

AJ

[tongboy]

The amount of collective knowledge on S4gru is insane.

 

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[WiWavelength]

The amount of collective knowledge on S4gru is insane.

 

Often, genius is mistaken for insanity.  Or is it the other way around?

 

 

AJ

[Joeynach]

I would expect that high RSRP but low SINR halfway between two loaded sectors on the same site or on adjacent sites.

 

AJ

I believe the screenshot was from a user standing on the Red line platform at Addison (Wrigley Field) which has a full NV tower just a block away at Clark/Addison, it showed a ridiculously strong LTE signal, like in the 70s, but an SNR of like 0.6. Surrounding this location are three other full NV sites, all about a half mile away, one to the NE, one to the NW, and one to the SE.

[mhammett]

So really, more spectrum will allow connected users a better experience? Or will it just allow more connections, or both?

 

Allowing more connections causes a better experience.

 

I would expect that high RSRP but low SINR halfway between two loaded sectors on the same site or on adjacent sites.

 

AJ

 

So then I may be on to something with my hypothesis a page or two back?

[Joeynach]

I would expect that high RSRP but low SINR halfway between two loaded sectors on the same site or on adjacent sites.

 

AJ

Hmmm, not sure, I experience this phenomenon quite frequently in my office downtown.  I am right across the street from a Sprint site with full NV.  On LTE I get a very strong -80dbM signal most of the time (indoors) with SNR values between 0-2.  The two closest other towers to my location are still 3G only according to NV sites complete.

[gnoj]

Was at the Bears game today, more Sprint fail.  Don't let that new 3G/800/4G pin ontop of solider field on the NV sites complete map fool you.  The service remained inoperable, data was non existent, signal disappears indoors (inside of the concourses and bathrooms)...

 

Just curious, how was voice and text service? If that was inoperable as well, I would have no qualms about flashing a corporate USCC or VZW PRL for the short period I was there. Maybe if they noticed all their customers roaming there they'd figure out they need to work on that site.

 

A new PRL prioritizing 1x800 over PCS will be pushed once 1x800 is live in the majority of a market, for most markets. At least for LTE devices. Non-LTE devices will see a new PRL that puts 1x800 and PCS on the same level, like it currently is for LTE devices.

 

That doesn't make sense. Once every site is upgraded, there won't be any place that you can pick up CDMA on PCS that you won't also be able to use 1x800, at least in theory. That means that everyone (at least all smartphone users) will be parked on 1x800 all the time. Even with 1xA, I doubt the single CDMA carrier that is being deployed on SMR can support all those connections- some sites are bound to hit their capacity. Will there be network-side load balancing between the bands like there will be for LTE? If not, Sprint may as well refarm the rest of their PCS holdings to LTE.

 

USCC spectrum will do a good job in holding the fort until 2.6ghz spectrum gets fully deployed. 

 

Everyone seems to be assuming Sprint will deploy a second 5x5 LTE carrier on USCC's PCS B block. While I agree this would be the wise thing to do, it is something they have not yet done in any other market, including those where their PCS holdings are already as broad as they soon will be in Chicago. Does anyone have any evidence that they won't just be leaning on EBS/BRS to provide additional LTE capacity?

[Joeynach]

Just curious, how was voice and text service? If that was inoperable as well, I would have no qualms about flashing a corporate USCC or VZW PRL for the short period I was there. Maybe if they noticed all their customers roaming there they'd figure out they need to work on that site.

Inoperable as well.  A majority of the time the 3G/4G icon never came up, so essentially no service, even with full bars for 1xRTT.  I never saw the phone go into roaming.  You can't place calls or send/receive texts when the phone displays no icon.  In the small amount of time the phone found service, whether 3G or 4G, it was painfully slow.  For calls and texts, some went through, others just hung up or timed out and never went through.

[WiWavelength]

Hmmm, not sure, I experience this phenomenon quite frequently in my office downtown.  I am right across the street from a Sprint site with full NV.  On LTE I get a very strong -80dbM signal most of the time (indoors) with SNR values between 0-2.  The two closest other towers to my location are still 3G only according to NV sites complete.

 

If two adjacent sectors are fully loaded, they will interfere with one another.

 

AJ

[Joeynach]

If two adjacent sectors are fully loaded, they will interfere with one another.

 

AJ

Thats probably the case, why wouldn't they be in dense areas like the Loop, Wrigleyville, River North, in those places the demand comes from all directions not just sectors facing one direction.

[mhammett]

Is there any way to pull what modulation the phone is using? Duty cycle?

 

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