Sprint Organic Network Expansion Discussion Thread

[anthony.spina97]

How many cells would a small cell sell if a small cell could sell cells?

 

AJ

A Google search didn't come up with a conclusion to this. There must be a glitch in the matrix.

 

 

-Anthony

[newyork4me]

That's classic Atlantic Bell/Ameritech/GTE MobilNet/Verizon Wireless. mentality, though. They always would rather deploy spectrum over densifying their network. This is how they have rolled forever and ever. 

 

Fixed it for you. 

 

But, at least it looks like's VZW's way of thinking has changed. American Tower says they are the most active in network additions this year, so it looks like densification has finally made it into their school of thought. 

[Fraydog]

Fixed it for you.

 

But, at least it looks like's VZW's way of thinking has changed. American Tower says they are the most active in network additions this year, so it looks like densification has finally made it into their school of thought.

Fair point, but VZ is on the second year of really fixing density around me. Their network scores show that they're clearly doing something right.

[Conan Kudo]

 

In a FDD scenario, downlink is way more heavily used than uplink. 

 

Neal thinks that the downlink heavy paradigm is going to shift.  He believes that the uplink will become just as utilized.  I presume that is through various sorts of self broadcasting -- probably typical Millennial "Look at me, everything I see and do is special" vanity bullshit.  That is not a reflection on Neal, but on Millennials in general. 

 

AJ

 

 

When you consider how wireless data is used, it's hard to imagine uplink and downlink ever getting parity in usage.  If anything the trend has gotten worse since demand of video streaming has gone up, tipping the scales even further.  Maybe one day, people will be streaming up as much as they stream down.  But that is not forseeable anytime soon.

 

And given this is how the wireless world is with greater downlink demand than uplink, things like TDD LTE and aggregating more LTE downlink to fewer uplink assignments will result in greater efficiency of spectrum.  And if one day the tables should turn and uplink starts to increase demand, well, we can address that.  And TDD-LTE can do that easily.

I still believe that equalization of upstream and downstream usage is coming very quickly, as UGC further democratizes through affordable mobile devices with better and better camera systems.

 

In fact, we're starting to see startups form to tackle how to make streaming video easier on mobile devices. For example, an app called Meerkat launched only a few weeks ago. Granted, it's only for iOS now, but I envision it coming to Android very soon. Other players in the live streaming market, such as TwitchTV, Livestream, UStreamTV, and (of course!) YouTube Live/Hangouts on Air will further improve and spread. "[V]anity bullshit" or not, it's foolish to ignore the data demand that can come from that.

 

Right now, it's relatively difficult and expensive to produce content in a mobile fashion. But it's very clear that it will change, and when it does, it'll be the second data explosion. No one expects the data explosion!

 

There's also other uplink-dominant applications, such as machine type communication (MTC), commonly known as the Internet of Things (which I still think is a stupid moniker). While these are low-bandwidth in many applications, several are high bandwidth and all require a high amount of uplink capacity. I say this as someone who has worked on such applications before and knows how fast that particular segment is growing.

 

While it is true that LTE TDD is certainly capable of uplink-dominated configurations, it remains to have deficiencies in parity configurations. That said, there are certainly ways to try to work around this problem (such as configuring a carrier in uplink dominant mode and another in downlink dominant, and switching carriers based on your usage model), but at the end of the day, either FDD or full duplex wireless will be needed to maximize efficiency.

 

Keep in mind that very few people expected the first data explosion that occurred in 2008 after the iPhone 3G launched. The signs were certainly there before that, but it was easy enough to ignore. This time around, I hope people don't miss the signs for when uplink becomes more important.

 

So, my last word on this is that you shouldn't count your chickens before they hatch. You might get an interesting surprise...

[S4GRU]

I still believe that equalization of upstream and downstream usage is coming very quickly, as UGC further democratizes through affordable mobile devices with better and better camera systems.

 

In fact, we're starting to see startups form to tackle how to make streaming video easier on mobile devices. For example, an app called Meerkat launched only a few weeks ago. Granted, it's only for iOS now, but I envision it coming to Android very soon. Other players in the live streaming market, such as TwitchTV, Livestream, UStreamTV, and (of course!) YouTube Live/Hangouts on Air will further improve and spread. "[V]anity bullshit" or not, it's foolish to ignore the data demand that can come from that.

 

Right now, it's relatively difficult and expensive to produce content in a mobile fashion. But it's very clear that it will change, and when it does, it'll be the second data explosion. No one expects the data explosion!

 

There's also other uplink-dominant applications, such as machine type communication (MTC), commonly known as the Internet of Things (which I still think is a stupid moniker). While these are low-bandwidth in many applications, several are high bandwidth and all require a high amount of uplink capacity. I say this as someone who has worked on such applications before and knows how fast that particular segment is growing.

 

While it is true that LTE TDD is certainly capable of uplink-dominated configurations, it remains to have deficiencies in parity configurations. That said, there are certainly ways to try to work around this problem (such as configuring a carrier in uplink dominant mode and another in downlink dominant, and switching carriers based on your usage model), but at the end of the day, either FDD or full duplex wireless will be needed to maximize efficiency.

 

Keep in mind that very few people expected the first data explosion that occurred in 2008 after the iPhone 3G launched. The signs were certainly there before that, but it was easy enough to ignore. This time around, I hope people don't miss the signs for when uplink becomes more important.

 

So, my last word on this is that you shouldn't count your chickens before they hatch. You might get an interesting surprise...

 

I completely disagree.  I will NEVER upload as much as download.  And I upload more than 90% of people.  I will not be uploading movies and audio to the cloud to the frequency in which I download or stream.  Not even close.  People consume much more content than they create.  Only content creators will ever do that.  And we are talking 1 in 100 people.  And narcissists and megalomaniacs only make up 10% of the population.  

 

It would take a drastic change in the way people live...not just how they use their phones.  Right now, we don't live in a Truman Show world and want everyone to see our lives streamed out...through our smartphone.

 

So not only do people have to change the way they live to create the need for such a huge upload lifestyle, but it would also have the need to upload that from the device.  People already upload photos and videos to social media and YouTube.  Many people who are extreme content creators and consume a lot of uplink bandwidth still even do so from fixed internet solutions and not wireless.  For the most part, mobile devices are pretty much specifically used only to upload content that is specifically created on the device.  And that is the de facto limiting factor.

 

You will never be able to convince me that people will be creating content and uploading it from their devices at equal rate that they download.  Especially when you consider streaming.  There will always be that 1 in 100 situation where someone does.  But to get to the parity that you're talking about, it would take a majority of people using data this way.  I can't see the scenario.

 

And then to complicate matters further, uplink is already quasi-capacity limited and cannot even support usage parity with downlink in the current wireless data network situation.  The downlink airlink can be used quite efficiently, as the high power site blasts it all out and controls the usage of the airlink.  But on the uplink, the device does not have the same power rate to get back, causing an artificial downlink capacity limitation.  There are many situations where a device with a -115 RSRP LTE signal can still run at 30-40Mbps, between high MIMO and possibly even carrier aggregation.  However, the uplink is running in kilobits or timing out, because the device cannot achieve a robust enough signal back to be usable to the point where parity could be achieved, even if desired.  The uplink airlink cannot be used anywhere near as efficient as downlink without a change in technology.

 

So if we are headed to usage parity between downlink and uplink, today's wireless networks are nowhere near being able to handle it, regardless of wonderful carrier aggregation technologies paring TDD-LTE channels to underutilized FDD-LTE uplink channels.

 

You provide no compelling argument except to say that some people think that usage may change.  Meanwhile downloading of streaming content only continues to drive the downlink/uplink ratio even further toward greater downlink dominance.

 

One point I will agree with you is that as wireless networks improve, the limitations to using uplink for larger files or reverse streaming becomes more attractive and useful to more people.  Wireless customers will indeed use it more, every year.  But there is no indication that it's going to grow anywhere near parity with downlink.  And if it ever does, it would be at least another generation away.  Sprint would be foolish to continue to waste under utilized uplink capacity, when it could be used for something so beneficial as extending the range of their Band 41 LTE.  You understand it is being wasted right now, right?

 

This is a quite ingenious and forward thinking idea for Sprint.  Something the old Sprint would never have done.  Sit back and enjoy the new Sprint.  It's a glorious new day, Neal.  Glorious.

[S4GRU]

And one last thing...uplink usage growth is retarded by data caps.  Even Sprint and Tmo have a lot of people with data buckets now.  Who will destroy their data limits uploading big content over wireless?  Not many.  Unless they are in business of content creation.  Most will save their uploading until they are on WiFi.

 

Who wants to burn through their data cap uploading, and then not be able to do anything else downloading or streaming the rest of the month?  No one.

[Conan Kudo]

 

You will never be able to convince me that people will be creating content and uploading it from their devices at equal rate that they download.  Especially when you consider streaming.  There will always be that 1 in 100 situation where someone does.  But to get to the parity that you're talking about, it would take a majority of people using data this way.  I can't see the scenario.

You're probably right that it won't ever be a majority or the people or even a plurality of people. But I consider this to be more about the 80/20 rule initially. 80% of the capacity will be used by 20% of the people. And don't count out IoT stuff. That covers quite a large variety of applications, such as security cameras, car dash cameras, meter tracking, etc. Again, it's not just regular people, it's also corporate/business stuff, too.

 

Downlink data demand wasn't just regular people either. It was also driven by business needs and all kinds of other factors in play. IoT-style stuff will do to uplink what iPhone did for downlink.

 

And one last thing...uplink usage growth is retarded by data caps.  Even Sprint and Tmo have a lot of people with data buckets now.  Who will destroy their data limits uploading big content over wireless?  Not many.  Unless they are in business of content creation.  Most will save their uploading until they are on WiFi.

 

Who wants to burn through their data cap uploading, and then not be able to do anything else downloading or streaming the rest of the month?  No one.

 

I definitely agree with you on this. The biggest impairment to this is going to be data caps. But then again, this is also true for downlink usage growth, too.

 

One point I will agree with you is that as wireless networks improve, the limitations to using uplink for larger files or reverse streaming becomes more attractive and useful to more people.  Wireless customers will indeed use it more, every year.  But there is no indication that it's going to grow anywhere near parity with downlink.  And if it ever does, it would be at least another generation away.  Sprint would be foolish to continue to waste under utilized uplink capacity, when it could be used for something so beneficial as extending the range of their Band 41 LTE.  You understand it is being wasted right now, right?

Of course I understand that uplink is underutilized today, I just don't believe it'll remain that way for very long. If you believe it has to be in the next generation of wireless networks, then you're saying it'll happen at the end of the decade, which is only five years away.

 

Sit back and enjoy the new Sprint.  It's a glorious new day, Neal.  Glorious.

I'm certainly looking forward to seeing improvements come my way... And of course, I'm always happy that there's more players sucking away at Verizon.

[KDKobes]

Any reason why Sprint only has a few of its Clearwire sites switched over in my area?? And IF they are keeping all the Clearwire sites why is one in my area not on and or shown through Sprint(the tower with the arrow)? I posted some pictures showing Clearwire towers and Sprint towers and the towers that have Clearwire 2.5 but is not switched over to Sprint(the circled towers are not on 2.5 yet for Sprint). Are they ever going to switch them over or are they going to decommission them because that would just be completely dumb.

Edited March 18, 2015 by KDKobes

[Deval]

Any reason why Sprint only has a few of its Clearwire sites switched over in my area?? And IF they are keeping all the Clearwire sites why is one in my area not on and or shown through Sprint(the tower with the arrow)? I posted some pictures showing Clearwire towers and Sprint towers and the towers that have Clearwire 2.5 but is not switched over to Sprint(the circled towers are not on 2.5 yet for Sprint). Are they ever going to switch them over or are they going to decommission them because that would just be completely dumb.

 

Legacy Clearwire sites are an interesting animal. The one that used to serve my house in Jersey didn't get WiMAX till late, and instead of it being upgraded to dual tech (WiMAX and LTE), the Clearwire stuff was decommissioned and the site received a full 8T8R build. 

 

A lot of the other legacy Clearwire sites in the same area just got upgraded to dual tech.

[Rickie546]

 

Rickie

sent on my LG G2

[dnwk]

I have read articles says that to using Cloud RAN you will need huge amount of cell backhaul. I doubt Sprint can get really good backhaul in lots of places for C-RAN to work.

[JThorson]

I have read articles says that to using Cloud RAN you will need huge amount of cell backhaul. I doubt Sprint can get really good backhaul in lots of places for C-RAN to work.

 

 

"Macquarie Capital analysts Kevin Smithen and Will Clayton wrote in a research note that Sprint will launch a Cloud Radio Access Network (C-RAN) solution as part of its new "Next Generation Network" strategy, which Sprint disclosed earlier this month.We continue to believe that Sprint will incorporate C-RAN technology over small cells as part of its network architecture at substantial savings per node/site over earlier Network Vision deployments," they wrote.

http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/sprints-claure-heads-japan-get-sons-sign-network-densification-plan/2015-05-12

[dnwk]

http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/sprints-claure-heads-japan-get-sons-sign-network-densification-plan/2015-05-12

 

But you will still need to have 10Gb Fiber to use cloud RAN, Right?

[dnwk]

Well, I guess in those locations that need small cell, it usually located in downtown of  big metro area where fibers are easy to get.

[Tajustin95]

Was there ever a time frame that the densification plan will be implemented and finished?

[clbowens]

Soon.  :-)

[JThorson]

But you will still need to have 10Gb Fiber to use cloud RAN, Right?

That I am unsure of. Maybe someone else can help clarify.

 

Well, I guess in those locations that need small cell, it usually located in downtown of  big metro area where fibers are easy to get.

Since this would be used to small cells, it would make the most sense to have it used in a more dense locations.

[dnwk]

That I am unsure of. Maybe someone else can help clarify.

 

10Gb Fiber is definitely needed for macro site. Not sure for small cell.

[S4GRU]

Was there ever a time frame that the densification plan will be implemented and finished?

 

No.  In fact, Marcelo just tweeted the other day he was travelling to Tokyo to meet with Masa on finalizing the plan.  Once they make final deisions on the scope of the plan and funding sources and timing, then they can discuss time frames.

[cdk]

No.  In fact, Marcelo just tweeted the other day he was travelling to Tokyo to meet with Masa on finalizing the plan.  Once they make final deisions on the scope of the plan and funding sources and timing, then they can discuss time frames.

 

Hopefully additional information will start leaking out soon^tm after he returns.

[IamMrFamous07]

Sorry but is this plan different from the expansion plan we learned a couple months ago? I've been MIA the last few days so I'm trying to catch up lol

[jroepcke51]

Sorry but is this plan different from the expansion plan we learned a couple months ago? I've been MIA the last few days so I'm trying to catch up lol

Everyone goes mia in MIA...

[Dkoellerwx]

Sorry but is this plan different from the expansion plan we learned a couple months ago? I've been MIA the last few days so I'm trying to catch up lol

 

Not really. They're still working on refining the details. And they gave it a name.

[EntrepreneurKid]

I've read and heard about Sprints plan to expand it's network but has anyone actually experienced or seen this expansion anywhere, mainly in areas like Missouri which is supposedly part if Project Ocean. Or anywhere else,specifically outside of metro areas. Has anyone picked up a signal in an area that should be no service or roaming, and is sure it isn't one of Sprints rural partners. Are there any new towers that have added coverage to the map, not just increase coverage within an existing footprint.

 

Or has anyone discovered documentation showing plans for where a proposed Sprint tower is to be built. (permits, etc.)

[anthony.spina97]

I've read and heard about Sprints plan to expand it's network but has anyone actually experienced or seen this expansion anywhere, mainly in areas like Missouri which is supposedly part if Project Ocean. Or anywhere else,specifically outside of metro areas. Has anyone picked up a signal in an area that should be no service or roaming, and is sure it isn't one of Sprints rural partners. Are there any new towers that have added coverage to the map, not just increase coverage within an existing footprint.

 

Or has anyone discovered documentation showing plans for where a proposed Sprint tower is to be built. (permits, etc.)

Well Sprint did only JUST get funding for the project, so it's not likely we'll have seen anything like that yet. But Soon™, more than likely.

 

-Anthony