Debate on whether you should offload smartphone data on WiFi, even though you pay for "unlimited"

[stopsign002]

Yes, I think that I was very clear in my previous post. Do you have any stats to show that VZW somehow has generally lower latency than does Sprint?

 

AJ

 

Sorry for clarifying....

 

 

No, that was a bad way to make my point, sorry about that. What I should have said was this;

 

If someone is loading a little bit of information from the internet (like people do with facebook all the time) on a lower bandwidth (as long as it isn't too low) lower latency connection compared to a higher bandwidth higher latency connection, the phone with the 'slower' connection is going to appear faster to the average user.

 

Heres an example of the a study that says checking the weather is the number one thing people do on their smartphone (http://www.huffingto..._n_1818632.html). If they are updating a moving weather map or something of the sort that might take a bit of data, but if they are just refreshing some weather stats do you really think the higher bandwidth comes into play (if lets say we have a 700kbps/60ms compared to 20mbps/200ms)?

 

I would argue 6 of those top 'things people do on their smartphones' aren't very data intensive and dont need a high bandwidth connection, meaning latency would probably be more helpful in making the phone appear to be faster. Many things people do on their phones are small data things, not large data things (though watching video is number two on that list)

Edited November 29, 2012 by stopsign002

[WiWavelength]

If someone is loading a little bit of information from the internet (like people do with facebook all the time) on a lower bandwidth (as long as it isn't too low) lower latency connection compared to a higher bandwidth higher latency connection, the phone with the 'slower' connection is going to appear faster to the average user.

 

I agree. Latency may be just as, if not more important than throughput for "light" data activities. But I am not sure that the VZW-Sprint comparison is relevant.

 

AJ

[WiWavelength]

In other words, no one ever in their right mind is going to consciously choose a slow-poke 3g connection over a home wifi/broadband connection...

 

Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people. - H.L. Mencken

 

I rest my case...

 

AJ

[stopsign002]

I agree. Latency may be just as, if not more important than throughput for "light" data activities. But I am not sure that the VZW-Sprint comparison is relevant.

 

AJ

 

I agree. I was typing faster than I was thinking. That was a bad example

 

I rest my case...

 

AJ

 

Lol

Edited November 29, 2012 by stopsign002

[S4GRU]

I can tell you that here locally, VZW latency on 3G and LTE is noticeably higher than Sprint. However, in most instances, VZW 3G throughput speeds are higher than Sprint.

 

Robert via Samsung Note II via Tapatalk

 

 

[Ascertion]

I can tell you that here locally, VZW latency on 3G and LTE is noticeably higher than Sprint. However, in most instances, VZW 3G throughput speeds are higher than Sprint.

 

Robert via Samsung Note II via Tapatalk

In my experience (not sure if roaming has anything to do with it), but my pings on VZW are always 200-300 ms, whereas Sprint, on ehrpd is usually sub 100. Sprint EvDo is around 150-200 on average. I do agree that VZW has alot of capacity in my area, too. My cousin came over and showed off his new GS3 and he did an LTE speedtest at my house and his 47mbps (yes, I'm jealous lol!) but that was around midnight, in the afternoon next morning he maxed out at 17mbps. Sprint I think will overall be better once LTE hits this area because it'll be cheaper and unlimited.

[S4GRU]

In my experience (not sure if roaming has anything to do with it), but my pings on VZW are always 200-300 ms, whereas Sprint, on ehrpd is usually sub 100. Sprint EvDo is around 150-200 on average. I do agree that VZW has alot of capacity in my area, too. My cousin came over and showed off his new GS3 and he did an LTE speedtest at my house and his 47mbps (yes, I'm jealous lol!) but that was around midnight, in the afternoon next morning he maxed out at 17mbps. Sprint I think will overall be better once LTE hits this area because it'll be cheaper and unlimited.

 

On VZW LTE, I average 6Mbps DL during the day here in New Mexico, even with a strong signal. I only get blistering speeds at night. In some places I only get 2-3Mbps during the day on VZW LTE now.

 

Robert via Samsung Note II via Tapatalk

 

 

[dedub]

sprint 3g < home internet/wifi ~1-3 meg < wimax < home internet/wifi ~5-10 meg < lte < home internet 10+ meg

 

This has been my point all along, sprint 3g sucks and 99% *any* wifi connection will be way better than cellular.

 

Where this giant conflict of opinions comes in is wimax/lte.

 

Wimax and LTE are no where near the saturation/slowness of 3g, and often times way better than most wifi connections.

 

If we ever get to the point where wimax/lte are as overloaded as sprint 3g, then I would agree that offloading is as important as some of you feel.

 

When I was using my evo I pretty much used wimax exclusively because a) it was faster and more reliable than my dsl and any wifi that I would typically have access to.

 

Since recently I got an iphone5, and there is no sprint lte here yet, I am stuck with sprint 3g and I am always on the look out for wifi.

 

You can talk as long and as loud as you want about the tragedy of the commons et al, the fact is that on wimax/lte there is not the same constraints as on 3g and until or unless a person or group of persons are being affected by some overloaded wimax/lte then it does not make 1 bit of difference if they offload or don't.

[CriticalityEvent]

sprint 3g < home internet/wifi ~1-3 meg < wimax < home internet/wifi ~5-10 meg < lte < home internet 10+ meg

 

This has been my point all along, sprint 3g sucks and 99% *any* wifi connection will be way better than cellular.

 

For the sake of argument, I will meet you half-way for a minute and agree with the bolded section. Based off what you have said before, you will pretty much always use the faster connection, regardless of whether or not you have Wi-Fi available. What can you do on a 20 Mbps LTE connection that you can’t do on a 5-10 Mbps Wi-Fi connection? Take into account that the Wi-Fi connection will likely have a significantly lower latency than the LTE connection.

 

 

Where this giant conflict of opinions comes in is wimax/lte.

 

Wimax and LTE are no where near the saturation/slowness of 3g, and often times way better than most wifi connections.

 

If we ever get to the point where wimax/lte are as overloaded as sprint 3g, then I would agree that offloading is as important as some of you feel.

 

When I was using my evo I pretty much used wimax exclusively because a) it was faster and more reliable than my dsl and any wifi that I would typically have access to.

 

Since recently I got an iphone5, and there is no sprint lte here yet, I am stuck with sprint 3g and I am always on the look out for wifi.

 

You can talk as long and as loud as you want about the tragedy of the commons et al, the fact is that on wimax/lte there is not the same constraints as on 3g and until or unless a person or group of persons are being affected by some overloaded wimax/lte then it does not make 1 bit of difference if they offload or don't.

 

Kind of the same argument twice here; “Why bother using anything else if the cellular network isn’t overloaded?” I think this article that you posted a while back deserves another visit:

 

some more interesting reading @ http://www.fiercewir...reless-blunders

 

Here are some excerpts that I like:

 

The common perception was, if CDMA 1x-RTT and EV-DO worked fine, why bother with Wi-Fi?

 

...

 

As late as 2009, Sprint Nextel (NYSE:S) and Verizon were still wary of adding Wi-Fi to their BlackBerry devices. Network congestion from rising 3G data usage began forcing the carriers to rethink their stances on Wi-Fi though.

 

Up until 2008, 3G was GREAT, then it began to buckle under the stress of all the new subscribers. The honeymoon was over, and I wanted to punch Sprint in the face. The backlash from people who shared my frustration forced the carriers to start putting Wi-Fi on their phones.

 

Great, problem solved, right? Wrong. Now you have people who have gotten in the habit of not using Wi-Fi and either don’t know how to offload or don’t care to put forth the effort of a few flicks of the finger to offload. More people were still jumping on the smartphone bandwagon so the quality of service continued to deteriorate.

 

Now comes along WiMAX and LTE. I’m glad you admit that these are not silver bullets in the fight against network congestion. Even these will get overloaded, just like 3G. Do you like your 3G right now? How about being forced to use it in its current state for the last 3 years (when you didn’t have WiMAX available)?

 

 

This was a lot, so I’ll sum up my questions:

 

1.) What can you do on a 20 Mbps LTE connection that you can’t do on a 5-10 Mbps Wi-Fi connection? Take into account that the Wi-Fi connection will likely have a significantly lower latency than the LTE connection.

 

2.) Given that less than half of the U.S. currently uses smartphones, do you think that we’re not doomed to repeat history?

 

3.) Is it not worth pushing for more diligent Wi-Fi usage to avoid repeating what happened to 3G? I will admit that we might not see sub-150 Kbps speeds again, but with LTE, sub-1 Mbps speeds might become equally excruciating in 7-8 years.

[cripton805]

I get everyones point on sharing, etc... I don't really see a difference if I use an HDMI cable to stream to a TV than use data to stream to a device that will do the exact same thing. This is when I don't have wifi available obviously.

 

Just sharing my opinion.

 

Edit: Also, why such limits on the Hotspot features for all of the carriers, esp. Verizon? For instance, it's already LIMITED and you still have to pay an additional fee to use that limited Hotspot from the usage you're already limited to? It seems like they're double dipping. So I never felt bad when I did it on Verizon. =P

Edited November 29, 2012 by cripton805

[dedub]

I try to use whatever is reliable and fast and convenient.

 

This was a lot, so I’ll sum up my questions:

 

1.) What can you do on a 20 Mbps LTE connection that you can’t do on a 5-10 Mbps Wi-Fi connection? Take into account that the Wi-Fi connection will likely have a significantly lower latency than the LTE connection.

 

not a lot, I have never denied that once you hit a certain point of bandwidth and latency, it doesn't really matter.

 

I want to live in this world of 10+ mb wifi and sub 200ms latencies.

 

Very few public wifi that I have experienced has had this 'significantly lower latency' than wimax or lte.

 

 

2.) Given that less than half of the U.S. currently uses smartphones, do you think that we’re not doomed to repeat history?

 

history is always repeating itself, as smartphone/data usage goes up, so too will the network improvements and capabilities.

 

3.) Is it not worth pushing for more diligent Wi-Fi usage to avoid repeating what happened to 3G? I will admit that we might not see sub-150 Kbps speeds again, but with LTE, sub-1 Mbps speeds might become equally excruciating in 7-8 years.

 

until we get to that point, all the offloading in the world matters not one iota.

 

all this preaching of offloading is like avoiding the expensive and taxpayer funded superhighway just because it *potentially may* cause congestion, even when it knowingly does not.

[pyroscott]

Very few public wifi that I have experienced has had this 'significantly lower latency' than wimax or lte.

 

I'm 99.9% positive that nobody in here is saying anything about PUBLIC WiFi.

 

history is always repeating itself, as smartphone/data usage goes up, so too will the network improvements and capabilities.

 

We won't see major network improvements and capabilities for another decade. Carriers will throw more spectrum at the problem, but there will be a spectrum crunch before we see the next generation of wireless airlinks, unless carriers start implementing small cells... That, however, is very unlikely.

 

until we get to that point, all the offloading in the world matters not one iota.

 

all this preaching of offloading is like avoiding the expensive and taxpayer funded superhighway just because it *potentially may* cause congestion, even when it knowingly does not.

 

You are not even on the right track. Not even close... You can keep believing that LTE has Godly capabilities, but it doesn't. It will be overwhelmed. This is why Sprint already has plans to start throwing gobs of spectrum at their towers. Verizon is already getting overloaded with twice the spectrum that Sprint is initially deploying. Wake up!

[WiWavelength]

until we get to that point, all the offloading in the world matters not one iota.

 

If we get to that point, then it is already too late. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

AJ

[Hugo]

If we get to that point, then it is already too late. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

I agree. Once there, we'll be stuck with caps (or at best, throttling).

[newgroundsguru]

No, no, not this. Every time you keep your smartphone on EV-DO or LTE at home while you have Wi-Fi, the Baby Jesus cries.

 

While that may be a humorous exaggeration, it contains more than a kernel of truth. Folks, some of you just do not get it. You have to offload. Or you have no justification to complain about slow speeds. Sprint cannot offer unlimited data and competitive speeds unless most subs use relatively little data and/or offload to Wi-Fi. That is part of the deal.

 

So, if you have Wi-Fi at home and are not offloading, you better have a really good reason why. Otherwise, I would like to punch you. And "LTE is faster than my home broadband connection is not a 'really good reason why.'" You do not need greater than 1-2 Mbps on your smartphone for any legitimate purpose, bar none. If you want Sprint to maintain unlimited data, then offloading is your responsibility.

 

That may be tough, but sometimes you people need some tough love to set you straight...

 

AJ

 

Indeed! Im always on the wifi at home, its much faster then my crap 3g so its a easy choice.. But if i get 4g out here then i will still connect to my wi-fi at home..

[JeffDTD]

Im a little surprised to see this thread raging 42 pages later.

 

I now have my wifi set to come on every day around the time I come home from work. I talked to my roommate and got him on the wifi and off of 3g and also got my parents (the verizon hogs) to start using wifi at home.

 

You know what shocked me? All of them were unhappy with their 3g speed ( verizon has slow 3g too? Unicorns must be real!) And despite their irritation AND understanding good and well that their computers were on wifi, none of them seem to have ever even fathomed using the wifi. The initial looks I got were similar to the look a toddler would give u when a round block failed to fit in a square hole.

 

My point? Middle and lower america is chock full of smartphone users who understand very little about their smartphones. My parents had no idea what the password on their router was or how to find it. How many people can u think of who are just as clueless? All they care about is whether or not it works, not if they are having the best experience they could have. Something as simple as keying in a password will cause many users to become disinterested.

 

I dont believe unlimited has any chance of surviving 2015. The late smartphone adopters will be the most technologically inept

[WiWavelength]

Something as simple as keying in a password will cause many users to become disinterested.

 

Really, is it that difficult for them to key in "linksys"?

 

 

AJ

[jefbal99]

So in the next 6-8 months, I'm going to be running into this debate head on. My wife and I just signed on to build a new home in a new community 2 miles outside of a small city in Michigan. From what I can tell at&t doesn't provide DSL there and WOW! doesn't provide cable either. The options for HSI are Verizon LTE hotspot, Sprint hotspot, or satellite. I'm know that my smartphone data usage will be going up significantly because I won't have in home wifi to offload to Any hotspot will have a data cap and need to be reserved for PC usage and/or streaming TV (unless we add back in a TV subscription).

[JeffDTD]

 

Really' date=' is it that difficult for them to key in "linksys"?

 

 

AJ[/quote']

 

The cable co set up their router with a proprietary password. They have no idea how to change the settings on it. The majority of the people i come in contact with at work or school are similarly clueless. And before u assume, my mother sticks it to verizon every month for somewhere between 4 and 7gb.

 

Side story:

My best bud at work has a young wife who is a hospital administrator. She receives a subsidy in her paycheck for mobile service, so she bought a cspire 3g mifi recently with 5gb a month. He comes to work a few months ago stressed out, says the wife is making him go to cspire on his lunch break because the mifi is "broken" and using inaccurate amounts of data. To appease him, they process an insurance claim and he gets another. So about a month ago, he says she spent 2 hours the night before hollering and cursing cspire, claiming the mifi was wrong because she got a 50 bill for overrages. So I ask him "what makes u think its wrong?" We discuss...he says that she checks email and streams netflix a few times a week AT HOME. Next day, he tells me she also streams pandora in her office from it... The best part? He has comcast + wifi at home. I of course encouraged him to slap the mifi out of her her hands in the house.

Unfortunately, financial penalty is the only thing that will force some users to do anything that requires any effort from them. If the wife had been a sprint user with a phablet in an LTE market, she would still be mindlessly consuming mobile data (ignoring wifi) without a second thought.

[CriticalityEvent]

So in the next 6-8 months, I'm going to be running into this debate head on. My wife and I just signed on to build a new home in a new community 2 miles outside of a small city in Michigan. From what I can tell at&t doesn't provide DSL there and WOW! doesn't provide cable either. The options for HSI are Verizon LTE hotspot, Sprint hotspot, or satellite. I'm know that my smartphone data usage will be going up significantly because I won't have in home wifi to offload to Any hotspot will have a data cap and need to be reserved for PC usage and/or streaming TV (unless we add back in a TV subscription).

 

I wouldn’t feel too bad; this debate is mainly arguing for people to offload when it’s completely reasonable (e.g., at home or at a trusted friend’s place). Those aren’t great choices for home internet, so nobody is expecting you to offload. Paying for a hotspot service is also perfectly acceptable, but since it’s limited, we’d understand having to shift more usage to your cellular connection.

 

The only time people here would take exception to someone’s usage would be if the person rooted their phone to tether through it and was burning through 10+ GB/month.

 

My point? Middle and lower america is chock full of smartphone users who understand very little about their smartphones. My parents had no idea what the password on their router was or how to find it. How many people can u think of who are just as clueless? All they care about is whether or not it works, not if they are having the best experience they could have. Something as simple as keying in a password will cause many users to become disinterested.

 

I dont believe unlimited has any chance of surviving 2015. The late smartphone adopters will be the most technologically inept

 

My dad’s girlfriend got an iPhone around the time AT&T began capping plans. By that point, she had already asked me how to hop on Wi-Fi networks because her service was pretty much unusable. What was bad was that had her son not told her about Wi-Fi, she wouldn’t have even known to ask. The congestion in the area has since died down, so she has usable service again, but she still prefers to use Wi-Fi when available.

 

You are not even on the right track. Not even close... You can keep believing that LTE has Godly capabilities, but it doesn't. It will be overwhelmed. This is why Sprint already has plans to start throwing gobs of spectrum at their towers. Verizon is already getting overloaded with twice the spectrum that Sprint is initially deploying. Wake up!

 

I totally agree. The effect of smartphones on cellular providers can be likened to Zippo or Bic replacing their customers’ lighters with flamethrowers. Once you have that, why bother with using the furnace at home?

[JeffDTD]

So in the next 6-8 months, I'm going to be running into this debate head on. My wife and I just signed on to build a new home in a new community 2 miles outside of a small city in Michigan. From what I can tell at&t doesn't provide DSL there and WOW! doesn't provide cable either. The options for HSI are Verizon LTE hotspot, Sprint hotspot, or satellite. I'm know that my smartphone data usage will be going up significantly because I won't have in home wifi to offload to Any hotspot will have a data cap and need to be reserved for PC usage and/or streaming TV (unless we add back in a TV subscription).

 

Agree.

 

Satellite will get u the most for your $

[DaQue]

My home wifi went from 0.35 where I used to live to > 35mbps at the new place. I use smart wifi toggler now. Works out great. Sprint 3G is still about 0.6.

[tiger8896]

I have

It will not be a better option. LTE is unlimited for smartphone data only. Sprint LTE cannot be used for someone's home ISP. The network can't support it. Sprint caps tethered/hotspot usage. Expect them to start cracking down on unauthorized tethering on the new network.

 

Robert via Samsung Galaxy S-III 32GB using Forum Runner

I use the Sprint 3G as my ISP because I am in a remote area where DSL or cable are not available. I have had it for years so I have an old unlimited data plan.

 

Would you know what Sprint's policy will be for 3G customers with unlimited plans that want to upgrade to 4G? Will they allow them to keep their unlimited plans or force them to the capped data plans if trhey want 4G.

 

I was also wondering if I purchased a 4G card without a plan whether I would be able to access the 4G network without explicitly getting a 4G plan from Sprint and just use my current 3G plan to get 4G service. In my case, data limitations are more important than speed so if I had to make a choice I would keep my 3G service the way it is.

[S4GRU]

I have

 

I use the Sprint 3G as my ISP because I am in a remote area where DSL or cable are not available. I have had it for years so I have an old unlimited data plan.

 

Would you know what Sprint's policy will be for 3G customers with unlimited plans that want to upgrade to 4G? Will they allow them to keep their unlimited plans or force them to the capped data plans if trhey want 4G.

 

I was also wondering if I purchased a 4G card without a plan whether I would be able to access the 4G network without explicitly getting a 4G plan from Sprint and just use my current 3G plan to get 4G service. In my case, data limitations are more important than speed so if I had to make a choice I would keep my 3G service the way it is.

 

Sprint only allows 3G and 4G unlimited usage to be for smartphone use only. This is not new. 3G and 4G usage is the same to Sprint. Tethered/hotspot usage requires an add on to your plan with certain tiers of usage for a corresponding monthly fee. People who bypass the paid features of these plans by jailbreaking or rooting their devices are in violation of Sprint TOS.

 

Any purchase of a new 4G card or hotspot will require you to purchase a data plan, which comes with data caps. There are no unlimited card or hotspot plans. Sprint only offers unlimited data for smartphones.

 

Robert

[koiulpoi]

I have

 

I use the Sprint 3G as my ISP because I am in a remote area where DSL or cable are not available. I have had it for years so I have an old unlimited data plan.

 

Would you know what Sprint's policy will be for 3G customers with unlimited plans that want to upgrade to 4G? Will they allow them to keep their unlimited plans or force them to the capped data plans if trhey want 4G.

 

I was also wondering if I purchased a 4G card without a plan whether I would be able to access the 4G network without explicitly getting a 4G plan from Sprint and just use my current 3G plan to get 4G service. In my case, data limitations are more important than speed so if I had to make a choice I would keep my 3G service the way it is.

your unlimited 3g data card plan does not support 4g provisioning of any kind. EVDO-Only, 4g WiMax, and 4g LTE all have separate plan codes that are not compatible with each other. If you purchase a 4g-capable device, you will be subject to data caps.