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Dish Network/Boost Mobile cell/5G buildout thread


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Don't see any dedicated thread yet for this, so starting one - no qualms here however if the mods deem the content better suited elsewhere.

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Posted (edited)

It will be very interesting to watch a greenfield 5G network being built from the ground up. From what I understand it will be based on open RAN and C-RAn it that the equivalent of enodeB and RRUS can reside in the cloud virtualized as software and ran on general purpose computers. Of course, there are tradeoffs in that you need low latency/high bandwidth connectivity between your antennas and the rest of the network. So a successful network strategy will probably have to mix and match depending on whether you're talking about urban, suburban and rural. In urban setting you could virtualize both the enodeB and the RRU, for the suburban setting virtualize the enodeB but keep the RRU as hardware and in rural setting keep both as hardware.

Edited by bigsnake49
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I am also interested in what T-Mobile or Dish will do with the b26 spectrum. While Dish has an option to buy it after 3 years and a penalty if they don't, I am not sure why they would want to. I would like for T-Mobile to sell it to the Cellular Carriers (band 5) and have them redo band 5 to they can each have 15x15 allocations.

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Yeah, it would be kinda nice if the FCC just went a head and repacked it so you can easily make 5 5MHz blocks in SMR.  Redo the band plan, revoke 5MHz and auction that off.  Then use those precedes to pay the former A and B license holders. Allow for smaller license holders with deployed spectrum to have discounted rates. Have exceptions for smaller outfits to seek additional funding if they need to completely replace equipment and/or utilize a different band, or even have priority access.

It seems like it would be something the FCC would be interested in as they seek additional spectrum.

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I am also interested in what T-Mobile or Dish will do with the b26 spectrum. While Dish has an option to buy it after 3 years and a penalty if they don't, I am not sure why they would want to. I would like for T-Mobile to sell it to the Cellular Carriers (band 5) and have them redo band 5 to they can each have 15x15 allocations.
SMR doesn't cover B5, so those carriers would have to do B26

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5 minutes ago, Tengen31 said:

SMR doesn't cover B5, so those carriers would have to do B26

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I know that, they would have to reconfigure band 5 to include SMR.

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On 6/4/2020 at 3:16 PM, bigsnake49 said:

I know that, they would have to reconfigure band 5 to include SMR.

...which would be B26. Just like "reconfiguring B4 to include extended frequencies" resulted in B66.

FWIW the slice of B26 Sprint uses for LTE is right next to the bottom of B5, with a center frequency of 821.3 MHz on the uplink. That leaves 200 KHz between the top of the "advertised" 5 MHz LTE band (actually a bit more than that because as I recall a 5 MHz LTE carrier has 500 KHz of guard band built in) and where CLR starts. Then the 1xA carrier Sprint's using runs below that, rounding out their use of the 7x7 of SMR they have.

Catch here is, you'd have to reband the entirety of CLR + SMR to get what amounts to 5 MHz of extra spectrum over what's available in CLR + SMR right now...and that would have to happen across everyone in the band. 'cuz right now you have 10x10 + 10x10 + 5x5...potentially even better spectrum usage for folks who are shimming a 1x channel or some GSM in there (Verizon or rural carriers). You're not just dealing with all three major carriers.

At which point you only benefit spectrum-wise if you drop from three carriers to two in the band...and you can get to two carriers in the band with one of them having 15x15 without rebanding. Hard sell when the two carriers you'd see in that band already have B12 and B13 networks.

I'd much rather see Dish hold onto that spectrum, shunt all LTE users to B12, and replace the B26 carrier with 5x5 NR. T-Mobile can rent the remaining 2 MHz back from Dish for 1xA until they shut down CDMA entirely, allowing T-Mo to drop PCS CDMA (RIP) more quickly. Phones have had SMR CDMA for 8+ years at this point so switching PCS CDMA off shouldn't be a big deal at all. T-Mobile can use the existing ex-Sprint equipment to run the network on the cell sites they're keeping since you don't need nearly the density for 1x on SMR that you need for anything at PCS or higher.

Yes, this assumes Dish will actually launch a network. Holding out hope that that does indeed happen.

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I personally don't think Dish will buy the SMR spectrum from Sprint. 

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, iansltx said:

...which would be B26. Just like "reconfiguring B4 to include extended frequencies" resulted in B66.

FWIW the slice of B26 Sprint uses for LTE is right next to the bottom of B5, with a center frequency of 821.3 MHz on the uplink. That leaves 200 KHz between the top of the "advertised" 5 MHz LTE band (actually a bit more than that because as I recall a 5 MHz LTE carrier has 500 KHz of guard band built in) and where CLR starts. Then the 1xA carrier Sprint's using runs below that, rounding out their use of the 7x7 of SMR they have.

Catch here is, you'd have to reband the entirety of CLR + SMR to get what amounts to 5 MHz of extra spectrum over what's available in CLR + SMR right now...and that would have to happen across everyone in the band. 'cuz right now you have 10x10 + 10x10 + 5x5...potentially even better spectrum usage for folks who are shimming a 1x channel or some GSM in there (Verizon or rural carriers). You're not just dealing with all three major carriers.

At which point you only benefit spectrum-wise if you drop from three carriers to two in the band...and you can get to two carriers in the band with one of them having 15x15 without rebanding. Hard sell when the two carriers you'd see in that band already have B12 and B13 networks.

I'd much rather see Dish hold onto that spectrum, shunt all LTE users to B12, and replace the B26 carrier with 5x5 NR. T-Mobile can rent the remaining 2 MHz back from Dish for 1xA until they shut down CDMA entirely, allowing T-Mo to drop PCS CDMA (RIP) more quickly. Phones have had SMR CDMA for 8+ years at this point so switching PCS CDMA off shouldn't be a big deal at all. T-Mobile can use the existing ex-Sprint equipment to run the network on the cell sites they're keeping since you don't need nearly the density for 1x on SMR that you need for anything at PCS or higher.

Yes, this assumes Dish will actually launch a network. Holding out hope that that does indeed happen.

Right now you have a total of 12.5x12.5 of cellular spectrum for each cellular carrier. You have 7 MHz of ESMR. You could have 30 Mhz of band 26 owned by the cellular carriers and couple of Mhz for guard bands. T-Mobile does not want the band 26 and neither does Dish. Otherwise Dish would not have an option, they would have a firm agreement. 

Edited by bigsnake49
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Right now you have a total of 12.5x12.5 for each cellular carrier. You have 7 MHz of ESMR. You could have 30 Mhz of band 26 owned by the cellular carriers and couple of Mhz for guard bands. T-Mobile does not want the band 26 and neither does Dish. Otherwise Dish would not have an option, they would have a firm agreement.
I don't get why TMO wouldn't want it. It's still only 5x5 just like B12 and available in places they don't own B12 and would benefit customers that still don't have B71 devices. TMO still has iPhone 6s users

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Tengen31 said:

I don't get why TMO wouldn't want it. It's still only 5x5 just like B12 and available in places they don't own B12 and would benefit customers that still don't have B71 devices. TMO still has iPhone 6s users

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Too much trouble for what it is. Yet another low frequency to support with RRHs. They already have 600/700 RRHs. If they can sell it to somebody for $3.5B they can turn around and buy or lease more 600Mhz from Comcast and Columbia Capital. Right now they have a 600/700 RRH and band 2/band 66 RRH and are adding a band 41 MIMO RRH. If they add a 800RRH that's 4 RRHs per side plus the panels. You're going to have to stiffen the platform.

Edited by bigsnake49
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Too much trouble for what it is. Yet another low frequency to support with RRHs. They already have 600/700 RRHs. If they can sell it to somebody for $3.5B they can turn around and buy or lease more 600Mhz from Comcast and Columbia Capital. 

TMO already signed long term agreement with Columbia capital

 

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Tengen31 said:

I don't get why TMO wouldn't want it. It's still only 5x5 just like B12 and available in places they don't own B12 and would benefit customers that still don't have B71 devices. TMO still has iPhone 6s users

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I think they will use 800MHz for little while longer. I am not saying all of this will happen right now. I am talking about things that should happen over the next 2-3 years. But T-Mobile wants to have everybody on new 5G phones as soon as possible. If I am T-Mobile and I can get Comcast to sign a long term lease in return for a roaming agreement then I'd probably want to sell the 700Mhz spectrum as well and consolidate on 600Mhz. 

Edited by bigsnake49
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Wider bandwidth has less interference issues and is stronger at the edge. The issue is getting everyone to go along with it.

B26's nationwide aspect is great, but it is slimmed down near some major Canadian cities. From NE Ohio to Rochester NY is 1x800 only.  A few other areas with 3x3 only, 3x3 plus 1x800, or 5x5 only.

I have been told that b26 was originally going to be 10x10, but was paired back after the 9/11 Commission report. Now that we have band 14 it might be time for another look at nearby spectrum use by the FCC. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, dkyeager said:

Wider bandwidth has less interference issues and is stronger at the edge. The issue is getting everyone to go along with it.

B26's nationwide aspect is great, but it is slimmed down near some major Canadian cities. From NE Ohio to Rochester NY is 1x800 only.  A few other areas with 3x3 only, 3x3 plus 1x800, or 5x5 only.

I have been told that b26 was originally going to be 10x10, but was paired back after the 9/11 Commission report. Now that we have band 14 it might be time for another look at nearby spectrum use by the FCC. 

I am all for consolidating public safety in the 700Mhz LMR voice band. They should have done that before trying to reband in the 800Mhz SMR band. The FCC totally f'ed it up.

Edited by bigsnake49
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Posted (edited)

How would you go about deploying Dish's spectrum? Here are my ideas:

1. Conduct a geographic survey of where the Boost customers are

2. Start deploying the spectrum in the  cities and areas with the highest concentration 

3. Minimize tower climbs - deploy all the spectrum all at once

4. Incentivize Boost customers to upgrade to 5G phones

5. PROFIT😂

Edited by bigsnake49
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Analysts are bringing up some questions as to when is the sale of Boost to Dish is going to close and when is the lease of Dish's 600Mhz spectrum to T-Mobile going to to be signed and under what terms. I guess we will find out soon.

https://www.fiercewireless.com/wireless/dish-s-boost-closing-where-it-analysts

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2 hours ago, bigsnake49 said:

Analysts are bringing up some questions as to when is the sale of Boost to Dish is going to close and when is the lease of Dish's 600Mhz spectrum to T-Mobile going to to be signed and under what terms. I guess we will find out soon.

https://www.fiercewireless.com/wireless/dish-s-boost-closing-where-it-analysts

Was hoping for deeper analysis from the article.

Why is DISH possibly stalling: do they not have the money to close the deal and/or they can't operationally handle taking over Boost as a company at this time?

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, JimBob said:

Was hoping for deeper analysis from the article.

Why is DISH possibly stalling: do they not have the money to close the deal and/or they can't operationally handle taking over Boost as a company at this time?

No, usually deals close on quarter boundaries. I am sure that the hold up is that Dish wants better lease terms their spectrum and probably wants to pay for Boost with the 600Mhz lease money thus paying no cash for their Boost purchase. But in their latest filing, T-Mobile was only interested in leasing 56 of 486 licenses (possibly just dense urban areas). So instead of $350M/Year they will only get $135M/Year. Ergen is a tough negotiator so stay tuned.

Also as the article mentioned, there is the issue of what network should Boost be targeting and how to accomplish it. Remember that Boost customers have Sprint compatible phones. Some of them also are T-mobile compatible but not all, so Boost customers have the same the same problem that Sprint customers face, namely that the two networks are not integrated.

Edited by bigsnake49
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Uh oh:

Ergen, one of corporate America’s toughest negotiators, may force T-Mobile to find another buyer for its Boost Mobile prepaid service, sources close to the deal say. As FOX Business first reported on Tuesday, Ergen was looking to renegotiate the terms of its wholesale agreement to purchase Boost with T-Mobile, including Boost’s $1.4 billion price tag.

T-Mobile’s divestiture of Boost to Dish was one of the U.S. Department of Justice’smandates in order for the Antitrust Division to greenlight the merger of Sprint Corp with T-Mobile. It was also a key component of the wholesale agreement, which allows Dish to use T-Mobile’s network for seven years as it builds out its own 5G network.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/t-mobile-might-forced-buyer-001054539.html

Ergen better not overplay his hand or he will have to give back the spectrum and he might as well kiss his roaming deal with T-Mobile goodbye.

Edited by bigsnake49
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That negotiation was in good faith and agreed.  To fish for a better deal after the fact is just so ridiculous.  Does he have no honor?  He probably feels he has Tmo in the corner since they have to sell as part of the settlement.  But this could blow right up in his face.

Robert

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3 hours ago, S4GRU said:

That negotiation was in good faith and agreed.  To fish for a better deal after the fact is just so ridiculous.  Does he have no honor?  He probably feels he has Tmo in the corner since they have to sell as part of the settlement.  But this could blow right up in his face.

Robert

How would it blow up?

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5 hours ago, S4GRU said:

That negotiation was in good faith and agreed.  To fish for a better deal after the fact is just so ridiculous.  Does he have no honor?  He probably feels he has Tmo in the corner since they have to sell as part of the settlement.  But this could blow right up in his face.

Robert

Some people negotiate before the deal, others after.  Trump has historically used a similar model to Ergen.  The Fed has been pumping money into their system so most large firms can get financing even if in trouble, so that should not be an issue.  FCC historically has been weak on enforcement thus leaving the Department of Justice.  It is a political year. What plays best for Trump at this point? What if Biden wins? Most of us would not play this game.  I don't think T-Mobile wants to either.  Perhaps T-Mobile will spin off Boost, or at least dust off the other suitors.  

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