T-Mobile LTE & Network Discussion

[EvanA]

I don't think he specifically said 300mil with 700a.

He didn't. They don't have 700a licenses covering that many.

[lou99/maximus1987]

He didn't. They don't have 700a licenses covering that many.

Even if he did have all 700a ch51 is problem cause neville ray said they have 188mil pops and half is free and clear so even with 300mil 700a they still have at most 210mil pops free and clear.

[Conan Kudo]

Even if he did have all 700a ch51 is problem cause neville ray said they have 188mil pops and half is free and clear so even with 300mil 700a they still have at most 210mil pops free and clear.

What? That's not how the logic works. It differs based on licenses, DTV51 locations, etc. Neville has only spoken about the licenses that they acquired back in January. The proportion could be (and is quite likely) different now.

[lou99/maximus1987]

What? That's not how the logic works. It differs based on licenses, DTV51 locations, etc. Neville has only spoken about the licenses that they acquired back in January. The proportion could be (and is quite likely) different now.

Oops Misremembered

"We are now at 188 million covered POPs on those licenses, and just over half of that is already cleared [of channel 51 users]," Ray said. "We're very confident that we can clear the lion's share of the balance as we move into 2015."

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2473789,00.asp?fullsite=true

[Fraydog]

With my iPhone 6 (notoriously not a great RF device) on Band 2, I kept close to comparable range with the GSM network in dense enough areas.

 

Point in case:

Along I-59S in MS today, I kept a WatchESPN stream open from just outside Meridian, MS to Slidell, LA with some slight quality degradation close to the state line where spacing is more sparse. This stretch is pretty good with spacing for 1900, and thus my performance was adequate for this expectation.

 

Conversely, US45S from Brooksville, MS to Meridian, MS is also completely Band 2ified and the performance is spotty as anything due to site spacing being stretched WAY too thin. Please reference the 2G maps on T-Mobile to compare the spacing.

 

Moral of the story, when the existing macro infrastructure was already well planned for 1900, the Band 2 stuff pretty much works to the same level as expected by the GSM network when you allow proper overlap and sufficient time for the handset to handover to the adjacent cell.

However when the cell spacing is too far apart, you have a horrible experience. I desperately wish these sites would get the RRH treatment because it would make the experience a great deal more palatable.

 

But I'm also the fool that wants a UMTS layer for reliable voice with better quality than the GSM network with simultaneous data. Yeah, yeah, VoLTE I know, it's just not rock solid yet....

Overall, I'm of the mind that T-Mobile should just leave it up to their ground level engineers in a certain area whether a site gets a ground mount LTE set up like the rural 1900 sites in my area or the full modernization treatment. For most areas ground mount should suffice. Now if there are areas with significant congestion or coverage issues, I'd leave fully modernized sites as an option. The 1900 in my neck of the woods (Perryville, MO) is 10x10 and is faster than AT&T and similarly fast to Verizon. That should give them good headroom for a while.

 

Sprint should consider taking the non-Sparked rural Sprint areas that have low CDMA traffic and most of it on 800 MHz and deploying a 10x10 LTE channel 2 setup along with 5x5 in 25 and 26. That should give Sprint similar headroom to T-Mobile.

[milan03]

Overall, I'm of the mind that T-Mobile should just leave it up to their ground level engineers in a certain area whether a site gets a ground mount LTE set up like the rural 1900 sites in my area or the full modernization treatment. For most areas ground mount should suffice. Now if there are areas with significant congestion or coverage issues, I'd leave fully modernized sites as an option. The 1900 in my neck of the woods (Perryville, MO) is 10x10 and is faster than AT&T and similarly fast to Verizon. That should give them good headroom for a while.

 

Sprint should consider taking the non-Sparked rural Sprint areas that have low CDMA traffic and most of it on 800 MHz and deploying a 10x10 LTE channel 2 setup along with 5x5 in 25 and 26. That should give Sprint similar headroom to T-Mobile.

Good to hear that they finally have LTE live in your area, and even better 10MHz FDD!

[lordsutch]

Sprint should consider taking the non-Sparked rural Sprint areas that have low CDMA traffic and most of it on 800 MHz and deploying a 10x10 LTE channel 2 setup along with 5x5 in 25 and 26. That should give Sprint similar headroom to T-Mobile.

Pretty sure there are single-band LTE devices that aren't 10X10 capable out there in the wild. 3 5x5s on band 2/25 would be better even though the speed test epeen would be smaller.

 

That said any progress ditching the 3G-only GMOs would be most welcome (looking at you, Georgia market!).

[Paynefanbro]

Aren't speeds the main reason why Sprint has been falling behind in network testing. They lack the raw speed that the other carriers can produce besides in Spark cities. If you look at RootMetrics they say Speed + Reliability = Coverage. T-Mobile has speed, but not reliability. Sprint has reliability, but not speed. Verizon and AT&T have both of these which is part of why they dominate network testing reports.

 

I hate speed test contests as much as the next guy but ultimately, that's a deciding factor for too many people to ignore.

[Conan Kudo]

Isn't speeds the main reason why Sprint has been falling behind in network testing. They lack the raw speed that the other carriers can produce besides in Spark cities. If you look at RootMetrics they say Speed + Reliability = Coverage. T-Mobile has speed, but not reliability. Sprint has reliability, but not speed. Verizon and AT&T have both of these which is part of why they dominate network testing reports.

 

I hate speed test contests as much as the next guy but ultimately, that's a deciding factor for too many people to ignore.

At the end of the day, since throughput is a significant portion of what makes up quality of service, it's quite necessary to evaluate based on that metric. In fact, as we move toward more simultaneous multiple links along a single connection (hotspot, background data transfer, etc.) and move toward symmetric data usage (user-generated content, user-focused localized publishing, IP based communication, etc.), throughput measurements (aka "speed tests") will matter more and more.

 

It's fairly well-known by this point that narrow throughput, even with low latency and decent availability, will not suffice. All three components must be at their best. For wireless data networks these days, availability isn't usually a problem, but the other two can be. That's why RootMetrics follows the strategy they use for evaluation of mobile network operator broadband coverage.

[MarkyD311]

I think GMO lte means no RRH which means 1900 lte range is reaaaaally bad. They're just reusing same 1900 antennas that have been tgere for 10+ years.

 

Yes TMO is using GMO 1900 lte as a quick and dirty way to get lte up and running. Later they'll come back and put 700/AWS/1900 RRUs up.

 

I wouldn't say the range is bad. Let's use the network in OK as an example. These sites they're upgrading from EDGE/GPRS are being upgraded from 10+ year old Nortel base station equipment to modern NSN equipment. Even with GMO, the engineers here are seeing an INCREASE in range with the new 1900 LTE sites over what they were getting on the old Nortel stuff. So, at least here in OK where they're upgrading from really old stuff, the 1900 LTE coverage is actually better than the 1900 EDGE was, in many cases. 

[lou99/maximus1987]

I wouldn't say the range is bad. Let's use the network in OK as an example. These sites they're upgrading from EDGE/GPRS are being upgraded from 10+ year old Nortel base station equipment to modern NSN equipment. Even with GMO, the engineers here are seeing an INCREASE in range with the new 1900 LTE sites over what they were getting on the old Nortel stuff. So, at least here in OK where they're upgrading from really old stuff, the 1900 LTE coverage is actually better than the 1900 EDGE was, in many cases.

Darn. I was hoping it'd be worse to force them to do full upgrades.

[WiWavelength]

I wouldn't say the range is bad. Let's use the network in OK as an example. These sites they're upgrading from EDGE/GPRS are being upgraded from 10+ year old Nortel base station equipment to modern NSN equipment. Even with GMO, the engineers here are seeing an INCREASE in range with the new 1900 LTE sites over what they were getting on the old Nortel stuff. So, at least here in OK where they're upgrading from really old stuff, the 1900 LTE coverage is actually better than the 1900 EDGE was, in many cases. 

Darn. I was hoping it'd be worse to force them to do full upgrades.

 

Why am I not surprised that these pissant little LTE 1900 ground mount rural sites work well?  Of course, they work well because...

 

Every little thing she (John Legere) does is magic.  Everything she (Neville Ray) do just turns Magentans on.

 

 

Meanwhile, everything Sprint does is wrong or inferior -- or so we are told.

 

AJ

[joshnys8913]

I have never heard anything good about reliability being good on t-mobile, other then good data speeds. 

[MarkyD311]

Why am I not surprised that these pissant little LTE 1900 ground mount rural sites work well?  Of course, they work well because...

 

Every little thing she (John Legere) does is magic.  Everything she (Neville Ray) do just turns Magentans on.

 

Meanwhile, everything Sprint does is wrong or inferior -- or so we are told.

 

AJ

 

I can only speak to my personal experience in OK - and from the perspective of the engineers who are building the network here. Whether or not what is being said matches up with reality is something we'll have to wait and see. I'm far from a TMO evangelist, but I'm pretty impressed with what they've done in my state in a short amount of time. 

 

For work, I always have a current flagship from each carrier in my desk drawer, and I rotate them out frequently. VZW continues to be the most consistent carrier in my state, with AT&T lagging behind slightly in the more rural areas. T-Mobile has always been the worst outside of the city, but that is changing very quickly. Sprint, on the other hand, is an absolute disaster in the OKC metro. It's no more usable than it was a few years ago, but again, that's just one guy's perspective. I'm all about rooting for the underdog when they deserve it. In my region, Sprint has done tons of modernization but the cell grid is still so sparse. They don't stand a chance in this state unless they start putting up more macros, which doesn't seem like it's in the game plan any time soon (unless I missed something). 

[compneo]

Pretty impressed with the edge conversions in LA and MS as well. Not sure what Legere, Neville, or magentans have to do with it, but okay.

[joshnys8913]

I can only speak to my personal experience in OK - and from the perspective of the engineers who are building the network here. Whether or not what is being said matches up with reality is something we'll have to wait and see. I'm far from a TMO evangelist, but I'm pretty impressed with what they've done in my state in a short amount of time. 

 

For work, I always have a current flagship from each carrier in my desk drawer, and I rotate them out frequently. VZW continues to be the most consistent carrier in my state, with AT&T lagging behind slightly in the more rural areas. T-Mobile has always been the worst outside of the city, but that is changing very quickly. Sprint, on the other hand, is an absolute disaster in the OKC metro. It's no more usable than it was a few years ago, but again, that's just one guy's perspective. I'm all about rooting for the underdog when they deserve it. In my region, Sprint has done tons of modernization but the cell grid is still so sparse. They don't stand a chance in this state unless they start putting up more macros, which doesn't seem like it's in the game plan any time soon (unless I missed something). 

One of the big reasons why Sprint fell way behind is there "rip and replace" Sprint could of added cards I am sure (but I am not 100% sure if the old equipment could of done that). Plus Sprint wanted to use old clear spectrum and old nextel 800, so new equipment was probably the best way to of gone. It did hurt Sprint to rip and replace I think BUT its beginning to be a MUCH better experience. 

 

One thing I did notice is t-mobile sites that had previously 3G/4g (hspa) active on there towers they replaced equipment (not antennas), in my area, for 4G LTE upgrade.  

[joshnys8913]

Pretty impressed with the edge conversions in LA and MS as well. Not sure what Legere, Neville, or magentans have to do with it, but okay.

Legere did say "ALL towers will have 4G LTE by the end of the year" (2014) It was in one of the uncarrier videos. As far as I know that never happened because I have friends who have t-mobile and there are still spots with 2G EDGE still. 

[compneo]

Legere did say "ALL towers will have 4G LTE by the end of the year" (2014) It was in one of the uncarrier videos. As far as I know that never happened because I have friends who have t-mobile and there are still spots with 2G EDGE still.

Cool, I never saw that, have a link that?

[joshnys8913]

Cool, I never saw that, have a link that?

I think it was this one,  

(its the only one I watched for uncarrier, from CNET)

[maxsilver]

Legere did say "ALL towers will have 4G LTE by the end of the year" (2014) It was in one of the uncarrier videos. As far as I know that never happened because I have friends who have t-mobile and there are still spots with 2G EDGE still. 

 

I don't believe he said that would be finished in 2014. Only "half" of them.

 

I believe that full 100% 2G-to-LTE deadline is still mid 2015. It was always mid 2015 -- this hasn't changed or been pushed back in any way.

[joshnys8913]

I don't believe he said that would be finished in 2014. Only "half" of them.

 

I believe that full 100% 2G-to-LTE deadline is still mid 2015. It was always mid 2015 -- this hasn't changed or been pushed back in any way.

Maybe your right, I guess I just heard it wrong lol 

[lou99/maximus1987]

Why am I not surprised that these pissant little LTE 1900 ground mount rural sites work well? Of course, they work well because...

 

Every little thing she (John Legere) does is magic. Everything she (Neville Ray) do just turns Magentans on.

 

 

 

Meanwhile, everything Sprint does is wrong or inferior -- or so we are told.

 

AJ

For 700a they're gonna have to replace with rrh

[Paynefanbro]

I don't think so. He said half of all EDGE sites will have LTE by the end of 2014 and the other half of EDGE sites will be complete by the middle of 2015.

[joshnys8913]

I don't think so. He said half of all EDGE sites will have LTE by the end of 2014 and the other half of EDGE sites will be complete by the middle of 2015.

 

maxsilver already said this....

[lilotimz]

For 700a they're gonna have to replace with rrh

 

No.

 

For 700A they have to do tower modifications with new antennas and new radios by antennas.