Sprint TD-LTE 2500/2600mhz Discussion

[WiWavelength]

Frankly, I'd like to see 3x3LTE everywhere on 800, instead of 5x5. In the markets where you had enough spectrum for a 5x5 LTE on 800 add a second 1x carrier instead.

 

Why a second CDMA1X 800 carrier?  Do you realize that, in most markets, CDMA1X 1900 is over only one or two deployed carriers?  And that works fine.  Sprint does not have a voice/SMS traffic loading problem.  It has a data traffic loading problem.

 

AJ

[ericdabbs]

Frankly, I'd like to see 3x3LTE everywhere on 800, instead of 5x5. In the markets where you had enough spectrum for a 5x5 LTE on 800 add a second 1x carrier instead.

 

With CDMA 1x Advanced, a 1xA carrier is able to provide up to 4x capacity of a 1xCDMA 2000 carrier.  There is no need for an additional 1xA carrier for voice since there is not as much need as data does.  A 3x3 LTE carrier at 800 should only be deployed in circumstances where Sprint has limited 800 spectrum.  Otherwise a full 5x5 LTE carrier is required at 800 to provide decent consistent LTE speeds.

[maximus1987/lou99]

Did they mention how long it will take them to deploy 2.5 on all 38k sites? Hopefully by the end of next year.

 

And then by end of 2015 all WiMAX sites should be converted to LTE

That's the spirit! Screw everyone who purchased WiMAX phones. I wonder how you'd feel if Sprint "just shut off" YOUR 4G service.

[Dkoellerwx]

That's the spirit! Screw everyone who purchased WiMAX phones. I wonder how you'd feel if Sprint "just shut off" YOUR 4G service.

 

??

 

WiMax isn't getting shut off anytime soon. They're upgrading the current WiMax sites to be dual band. WiMax and LTE. 

[maximus1987/lou99]

I'm thinking a better/simple message to spread would be... 800 will allow Sprint to kill Tmobile in coverage and be more comparable to ATT/VZW after rollout completes and BTW, 2500 will give Sprint more capacity than everyone else too.

 

2500 is a bonus, not the key core asset. 2500 is great to augment 800/1900 but as Clear has shown, 2500 is not as valuable by itself. 800 is the key core asset and they finally can use it.

Sprint will not be comparable to VZW and ATT's coverage with 800. They have to build more towers to do that.

[Rasta Cheesehead]

That's the spirit! Screw everyone who purchased WiMAX phones. I wonder how you'd feel if Sprint "just shut off" YOUR 4G service.

 

Sprint is offer phones to wimax custmers or a free out of their contract 

Edited July 31, 2013 by Rasta Cheesehead

[maximus1987/lou99]

I'm thinking a better/simple message to spread would be... 800 will allow Sprint to kill Tmobile in coverage and be more comparable to ATT/VZW after rollout completes and BTW, 2500 will give Sprint more capacity than everyone else too.

 

2500 is a bonus, not the key core asset. 2500 is great to augment 800/1900 but as Clear has shown, 2500 is not as valuable by itself. 800 is the key core asset and they finally can use it.

Clearwire showed that if you don't have enough basestations/area, 2.5 sucks.

2.5 is DEFINITELY a core asset. SoftBank would not have purchased Sprint without it.

[Rasta Cheesehead]

Really, all devices? Even flip/feature phones? I'd love for that to be true, so that Ev-DO can be shut down that much more quickly and entirely refarmed to LTE, but I don't see that happening until they make a complete switch to VoLTE several years from now.

 

 

Wonderful! I guess you'll have to pick out new colors for those pins quicker than I thought you would have to.

 

 

Hold on. A little while back I asked how many of those 8,000 non-colocated Clearwire sites would be receiving TDD LTE (as full builds or small cells) and/or 800/1900 and the short answer is that it seems likely that most will get 2600 in some form, and a few on the edge of coverage or in protection sites will get the full tri-band treatment. However that is still conjecture (albeit a good guess and one I hope is true). All we know for sure until some more documentation comes in is that all 39k original NV sites (including those colocated with Clearwire) will get 2600, with some unknown quantity of small cells in between, probably in WiMax areas or the top 100 markets- so that all those travelling Japanese businessmen are covered .

 

I don't think the earnings call mentioned the rest of the Clearwire network, and my guess would be between now and when WiMax is shut down Q1 2015, Sprint will look to see if there are any Clearwire sites that prove to be redundant, so it can reduce operating expenses much like when the number of Nextel sites was trimmed.

 

So with adequate backhaul already in place everywhere from NV 1.0 I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the TD-LTE overlay to be completed by the time Wi-Max is shut down (especially if they can find another contractor like Nokia Siemens to help out), but the number and location of the urban small cells will continue to be tweaked for quite a while in response to demand.

 

all Sprint and ALL Clear sites will get 2.5 LTE and more sites will be added. They are not shutting down any clear sites. they need the density for 2.5 coverage

[rf40928]

all Sprint and ALL Clear sites will get 2.5 LTE and more sites will be added. They are not shutting down any clear sites. they need the density for 2.5 coverage

 

YES....

 

Steve Elfman, president of network operations at Sprint, noted during the company's second-quarter earnings conference call that Sprint now plans to deploy Clearwire's 2.5 GHz spectrum on all 38,000 of its planned Network Vision cell sites and even more sites than that in a nationwide rollout. Previously, Sprint had said it would use Clearwire's spectrum as a "hotspot" LTE network to offload traffic in urban markets.

 

In an interview with FierceWireless, Euteneuer said SoftBank's $21.6 billion acquisition--which includes $5 billion in new capital and allowed Sprint to buy Clearwire--spurred Sprint to make the shift in strategy. The move will let Sprint add more capacity to its own FDD-LTE network, which it is still in the process of being built out. Euteneuer noted that Sprint and Clearwire originally planned to deploy Clearwire's spectrum on around 5,000 cell sites as an offload network in urban markets. Those plans are still proceeding this year, but Sprint now wants to expand that to improve the customer experience.

Read more: Sprint CFO: SoftBank deal lets us take Clearwire spectrum nationwide - FierceWireless http://www.fiercewir...0#ixzz2afIYaxzM

 

[maximus1987/lou99]

Why a second CDMA1X 800 carrier? Do you realize that, in most markets, CDMA1X 1900 is over only one or two deployed carriers? And that works fine. Sprint does not have a voice/SMS traffic loading problem. It has a data traffic loading problem.

 

AJ

So that it can completely eliminate CDMA on PCS and refarm to LTE since 800 has less capacity than pcs.

[Dkoellerwx]

So that it can completely eliminate CDMA on PCS and refarm to LTE since 800 has less capacity than pcs.

 

There's more spectrum available in PCS... but a 5x5 in PCS has the same capacity as a 5x5 in 800. Not sure what you're getting at.

[ericdabbs]

Really, all devices? Even flip/feature phones? I'd love for that to be true, so that Ev-DO can be shut down that much more quickly and entirely refarmed to LTE, but I don't see that happening until they make a complete switch to VoLTE several years from now.

 

 

Wonderful! I guess you'll have to pick out new colors for those pins quicker than I thought you would have to.

 

 

Hold on. A little while back I asked how many of those 8,000 non-colocated Clearwire sites would be receiving TDD LTE (as full builds or small cells) and/or 800/1900 and the short answer is that it seems likely that most will get 2600 in some form, and a few on the edge of coverage or in protection sites will get the full tri-band treatment. However that is still conjecture (albeit a good guess and one I hope is true). All we know for sure until some more documentation comes in is that all 39k original NV sites (including those colocated with Clearwire) will get 2600, with some unknown quantity of small cells in between, probably in WiMax areas or the top 100 markets- so that all those travelling Japanese businessmen are covered .

 

I don't think the earnings call mentioned the rest of the Clearwire network, and my guess would be between now and when WiMax is shut down Q1 2015, Sprint will look to see if there are any Clearwire sites that prove to be redundant, so it can reduce operating expenses much like when the number of Nextel sites was trimmed.

 

You need to throw out anything you heard before yesterday's Sprint Q2 CC about Clearwire LTE deployment because that was all conjecture since there is no source to verify what Clearwire was planning.  I would take what Steve Elfman said yesterday at the Q2 CC that LTE 2.5 will be deployed on all 38K Sprint sites plus the other sites (a.k.a. Clearwire sites) since he said LTE 2.5 will need more sites deployed beyond the 38K Sprint sites to provide sufficient coverage.

[Boosted20V]

YES....

 

Steve Elfman, president of network operations at Sprint, noted during the company's second-quarter earnings conference call that Sprint now plans to deploy Clearwire's 2.5 GHz spectrum on all 38,000 of its planned Network Vision cell sites and even more sites than that in a nationwide rollout. Previously, Sprint had said it would use Clearwire's spectrum as a "hotspot" LTE network to offload traffic in urban markets.

 

In an interview with FierceWireless, Euteneuer said SoftBank's $21.6 billion acquisition--which includes $5 billion in new capital and allowed Sprint to buy Clearwire--spurred Sprint to make the shift in strategy. The move will let Sprint add more capacity to its own FDD-LTE network, which it is still in the process of being built out. Euteneuer noted that Sprint and Clearwire originally planned to deploy Clearwire's spectrum on around 5,000 cell sites as an offload network in urban markets. Those plans are still proceeding this year, but Sprint now wants to expand that to improve the customer experience.

Read more: Sprint CFO: SoftBank deal lets us take Clearwire spectrum nationwide - FierceWireless http://www.fiercewir...0#ixzz2afIYaxzM

 

 

Well, more accurately, they WILL be shutting down CLWR sites where CLWR is co-located with Sprint. Wouldn't make much sense to pay 2 site leases when you are on the same tower but different racks. I realize the point your making but just wanted to point that out.

[maximus1987/lou99]

There's more spectrum available in PCS... but a 5x5 in PCS has the same capacity as a 5x5 in 800. Not sure what you're getting at.

So that it can completely eliminate CDMA on PCS and refarm to LTE since 800 has less capacity than pcs.

They're planning one 1x in 800 and rest LTE with more 1x in PCS. Go down to 3x3 800 LTE so you can eliminate CDMA in PCS.

[maximus1987/lou99]

There's more spectrum available in PCS... but a 5x5 in PCS has the same capacity as a 5x5 in 800. Not sure what you're getting at.

Tower spacing.

[ericdabbs]

They're planning one 1x in 800 and rest LTE with more 1x in PCS. Go down to 3x3 800 LTE so you can eliminate CDMA in PCS.

 

Eliminating CDMA on PCS is not a good idea.  There are still plenty of phones (dumb phones and smartphones prior to 2011 or Moto Photon) that do not support 800 CDMA.  Also there are still a decent amount of markets that do not have any 800 MHz spectrum available for use next to the Canadian and Mexican IBEZ areas.  That extra 2.5 MHz (one 1x carrier) saved in spectrum at PCS is not worth all the headaches.  Its not like you can deploy an extra 3x3 or 5x5 carrier if one 1x carrier was removed at PCS.

 

Besides you need every single site in that market to equipped with Network Vision cabinets and panels that support 800/1900 in order to deploy 800 CDMA by itself.  Also what about 3G EVDO?  The EVDO network needs to stay up for the time being until LTE can be transferred completely for data.

[lordsutch]

They're planning one 1x in 800 and rest LTE with more 1x in PCS. Go down to 3x3 800 LTE so you can eliminate CDMA in PCS.

 

Not gonna happen. In addition to all the legacy Sprint user equipment that only does PCS and Cellular 850 (or even just PCS), there's also the many existing roaming partners who aren't putting CDMA SMR on their phones. Plus that would undermine Sprint's M2M push—I'm not sure how much of that hardware will do SMR.

[gnoj]

??

 

WiMax isn't getting shut off anytime soon. They're upgrading the current WiMax sites to be dual band. WiMax and LTE.

Depends on whether you'd define January 2015 as "anytime soon."

Sprint is offer phones to wimax custmers or a free out of their contract

This. A totally fair resolution, and one that makes sense, given that Sprint doesn't want WiMax to linger around and languish for years like iDEN.

YES....

 

Steve Elfman, president of network operations at Sprint, noted during the company's second-quarter earnings conference call that Sprint now plans to deploy Clearwire's 2.5 GHz spectrum on all 38,000 of its planned Network Vision cell sites and even more sites than that in a nationwide rollout. Previously, Sprint had said it would use Clearwire's spectrum as a "hotspot" LTE network to offload traffic in urban markets.

 

In an interview with FierceWireless, Euteneuer said SoftBank's $21.6 billion acquisition--which includes $5 billion in new capital and allowed Sprint to buy Clearwire--spurred Sprint to make the shift in strategy. The move will let Sprint add more capacity to its own FDD-LTE network, which it is still in the process of being built out. Euteneuer noted that Sprint and Clearwire originally planned to deploy Clearwire's spectrum on around 5,000 cell sites as an offload network in urban markets. Those plans are still proceeding this year, but Sprint now wants to expand that to improve the customer experience.

Read more: Sprint CFO: SoftBank deal lets us take Clearwire spectrum nationwide - FierceWireless http://www.fiercewir...0#ixzz2afIYaxzM

 

No, that does not answer the question of what will happen with the ~8,500 non-colocated Clear sites. I did mention that the 38-39k full build NV sites would all be getting 2600 (plus an unknown number of small cells; the "even more sites than that" part). The second bolded part references 5,000 Clearwire sites, which for all we know are the 5,500 sites that were colocated with Sprint's NV sites, or a mix of those and dedicated Clear sites. Either way, the original plan was to deploy on a subset of Clearwire's 14,000 sites. The new plan is that subset + all the Sprint sites (some of which may be part of said subset) + small cells.

Well, more accurately, they WILL be shutting down CLWR sites where CLWR is co-located with Sprint. Wouldn't make much sense to pay 2 site leases when you are on the same tower but different racks. I realize the point your making but just wanted to point that out.

Even if that is what they meant (meaning that TDD was to be deployed on 5,000 sites not counting those that are co-located which would be shut down) that still leaves the fate of ~ 3,500 Clearwire sites (14000-5500-5000) unaccounted for.

Not gonna happen. In addition to all the legacy Sprint user equipment that only does PCS and Cellular 850 (or even just PCS), there's also the many existing roaming partners who aren't putting CDMA SMR on their phones. Plus that would undermine Sprint's M2M push—I'm not sure how much of that hardware will do SMR.

I think one 1xA carrier in SMR is enough for now. Without any other low band spectrum, Sprint needs the data bandwidth there. As I've posted before though, Sprint needs a good 10-20 MHz in the 600 auction for good VoLTE coverage if nothing else. Once that's in place all but one PCS 1x carrier (for M2M and legacy devices) and Ev-DO can be refarmed to LTE and SMR can become Sprint's dedicated voice band indefinitely. Where there is surplus voice capacity 1xA can be tuned to support higher data speeds (up to 500 kbps) instead of voice capacity to make 1x browsing more bearable where LTE fails to reach, particularly if the OEM's continue to refuse to include LTE capability in non-smartphones. All this is a bit premature though until we know how the 600 auction will shake out. Hopefully by then the IBEZ issues will be worked out as well.

 

Also, be careful guys, this thread's already been derailed twice with 600/SMR talk. Be sure to at least mention TDD once in your posts

[maximus1987/lou99]

There's more spectrum available in PCS... but a 5x5 in PCS has the same capacity as a 5x5 in 800. Not sure what you're getting at.

If there's only one CDMA channel in PCS, is Sprint really gonna have a 3x3 LTE to fill the rest or will they fill in the 5 MHz with CDMA? Edited August 1, 2013 by bluespruce1901

[maximus1987/lou99]

Depends on whether you'd define January 2015 as "anytime soon."

 

 

This. A totally fair resolution, and one that makes sense, given that Sprint doesn't want WiMax to linger around and languish for years like iDEN.

 

 

No, that does not answer the question of what will happen with the ~8,500 non-colocated Clear sites. I did mention that the 38-39k full build NV sites would all be getting 2600 (plus an unknown number of small cells; the "even more sites than that" part). The second bolded part references 5,000 Clearwire sites, which for all we know are the 5,500 sites that were colocated with Sprint's NV sites, or a mix of those and dedicated Clear sites. Either way, the original plan was to deploy on a subset of Clearwire's 14,000 sites. The new plan is that subset + all the Sprint sites (some of which may be part of said subset) + small cells.

 

 

Even if that is what they meant (meaning that TDD was to be deployed on 5,000 sites not counting those that are co-located which would be shut down) that still leaves the fate of ~ 3,500 Clearwire sites (14000-5500-5000) unaccounted for.

 

 

I think one 1xA carrier in SMR is enough for now. Without any other low band spectrum, Sprint needs the data bandwidth there. As I've posted before though, Sprint needs a good 10-20 MHz in the 600 auction for good VoLTE coverage if nothing else. Once that's in place all but one PCS 1x carrier (for M2M and legacy devices) and Ev-DO can be refarmed to LTE and SMR can become Sprint's dedicated voice band indefinitely. Where there is surplus voice capacity 1xA can be tuned to support higher data speeds (up to 500 kbps) instead of voice capacity to make 1x browsing more bearable where LTE fails to reach, particularly if the OEM's continue to refuse to include LTE capability in non-smartphones. All this is a bit premature though until we know how the 600 auction will shake out.

 

Also, be careful guys, this thread's already been derailed twice with 600/SMR talk. Be sure to at least mention TDD once in your posts

Why wouldn't Sprint just tell ublox to make CDMA band 10 (SMR) devices?

Why load up PCS with M2M that could exist in the capacity available at SMR?

 

Sigh. I just realized why: IBEZ. But so what? Ublox already makes band 0/1 devices so why not just add band 10? Everywhere BUT the IBEZ, M2M can be on SMR.

 

Sprint strikes M2M deal with u-blox, targets AT&T's 2G shutdown

 

Read more: Sprint strikes M2M deal with u-blox, targets AT&T's 2G shutdown - FierceWireless http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/sprint-strikes-m2m-deal-u-blox-targets-atts-2g-shutdown/2013-04-22#ixzz2afwHeVT9

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[DaQue]

They're planning one 1x in 800 and rest LTE with more 1x in PCS. Go down to 3x3 800 LTE so you can eliminate CDMA in PCS.

I don't see any advantage to move CDMA off PCS. Heck older phones may not even support CDMA on 800 and most places they could do a 2nd LTE carrier in PCS anyway. Shutting of the CDMA would not free up enough room for an additional 5x5 LTE either if I remember right.

[Dkoellerwx]

If there's only one CDMA channel in PCS, is Sprint really gonna have a 3x3 LTE to fill the rest or will they fill in the 5 MHz with CDMA?

 

I didn't say that? Most if not all markets have 20+MHz of PCS to work with... I don't see why you are so concerned about that one CDMA channel. 

[maximus1987/lou99]

I didn't say that? Most if not all markets have 20+MHz of PCS to work with... I don't see why you are so concerned about that one CDMA channel.

I'm unclear. What will sprint do if it only needs one pcs 1x? Fill rest with 1x or a 3x3 LTE?

[Dkoellerwx]

I'm unclear. What will sprint do if it only needs one pcs 1x? Fill rest with 1x or a 3x3 LTE?

 

I don't know. That's not really something we're going to be worrying about for a while.

 

This topic is about TD-LTE. Stop worrying about PCS and SMR.

[Dkoellerwx]

Depends on whether you'd define January 2015 as "anytime soon."

 

I don't consider that anytime soon. A year and a half out. At the earliest. There's been nothing that said WiMax would be shut down in January. It could be December for all we know, or 2016 even. I doubt it, but nothing been committed to as far as a sunset date, other than it will run through 2015.