T-Mobile LTE & Network Discussion

[Paynefanbro]

Verizon announced a plan starting in August that allows people to upgrade as soon as they pay off half of the price of their phone. Verizon is already competing against Jump! Now I'm looking Sprint to see what they do.

[maximus1987/lou99]

Verizon announced a plan starting in August that allows people to upgrade as soon as they pay off half of the price of their phone. Verizon is already competing against Jump! Now I'm looking Sprint to see what they do.

Link please.

[Paynefanbro]

Link please.

http://www.phonedog.com/2013/07/15/new-verizon-vz-edge-program-leaks-will-help-customers-to-upgrade-more-frequently/

[supert0nes]

http://www.phonedog.com/2013/07/15/new-verizon-vz-edge-program-leaks-will-help-customers-to-upgrade-more-frequently/

 

It's good to see Verizon has found a way for people to pay more money.  I think this is the exact opposite direction of getting rid of subsidies, and in fact should help keep phone demand and prices artificially high.

[maximus1987/lou99]

It's good to see Verizon has found a way for people to pay more money. I think this is the exact opposite direction of getting rid of subsidies, and in fact should help keep phone demand and prices artificially high.

Why would this keep phone prices high? It is eliminating subsidies but unlike TMO, they're not lowering their plans by $20. So this is all for Verizon's benefit.

[milan03]

http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/18/t-mobile-lte-network-expansion/

 

Looks like Engadget did some of their own speed test...?  I would assume this is not the same thing..

That's that other event from March. It happened shortly after a few of us started posting pre-launch screens and videos of T-Mobile's 5Mhz FDD with pretty poor peak rates, most likely due to heavy OCNS testing. Within days they've assembled the presser in Midtown East, ran 10Mhz indoor LTE to "showcase" T-Mobile's upcoming network in NYC. 

I think it was Verge, Engadget, LaptopMag and Cnet only. They basically sat them around the table and let them test...

 

At that time, LTE wasn't live anywhere in Manhattan, was hard for them to confirm anything. That said, I was already finding my way onto that network by manually scanning and forcing my way in, but it was clearly 5Mhz network.

 

But this time, we've confirmed that they're totally running it in A block (10Mhz), while their actual network is in E block (5Mhz).

[maximus1987/lou99]

Let's hope that by the end of 2015 T-Mobile either figures out roaming options, or modernize across their entire footprint. For now, existing CDMA MetroPCS subs get to use their CDMA phones for two more years.

 

T-Mobile will lose some MPCS subs at some point, but I think they're aware of that.

How would W-CDMA voice be better than GSM voice? I thought since WCDMA is more complex, coverage will be slightly worse.

 

They have roaming option: ATT. That's what the 7 year roaming agreement from the breakup is for.

 

Can TMO see on which ATT towers their subs roam?

[WiWavelength]

How would W-CDMA voice be better than GSM voice? I thought since WCDMA is more complex, coverage will be slightly worse.

 

They have roaming option: ATT. That's what the 7 year roaming agreement from the breakup is for.

 

Can TMO see on which ATT towers their subs roam?

 

Because of spreading gain, W-CDMA voice does tend to provide greater coverage than does GSM voice.  Additionally, single time slot GSM voice is hard limited to 35 km cell radius.

 

As for roaming on AT&T, that is hardly ubiquitous.  Whether the obstruction comes from AT&T or T-Mobile, I do not know.  But T-Mobile subs are blocked from roaming on numerous AT&T LACs.

 

AJ

[Moropo]

Over on the Howard Forums I saw a link to this article posted:

 

http://www.wiwavelength.com/2013/07/a-taste-of-t-mobile-lte-bandwidth.html?m=1

 

by our very own AJ. And I guess it goes accordingly in this thread since it is about T-Mobile? 

 

I'm waiting anxiously on the Miami breakdown...

[WiWavelength]

Over on the Howard Forums I saw a link to this article posted:

 

http://www.wiwavelength.com/2013/07/a-taste-of-t-mobile-lte-bandwidth.html?m=1

 

by our very own AJ. And I guess it goes accordingly in this thread since it is about T-Mobile? 

 

I'm waiting anxiously on the Miami breakdown...

 

Yes, Milan and I are priming the T-Mobile LTE bandwidth article for wider publication.  The tease on my blog was just to give potential sites (and readers) a taste of the article.  We have some interest from Sascha Segan at PCMag and Brian Klug at AnandTech.  Hopefully, we can announce soon a publication date for later this month.

 

AJ

[maximus1987/lou99]

IT IS SETTLED!

TMO had 51k+ cell sites (not sectors) BEFORE the Metro merger.

 

http://assets.fiercemarkets.com/public/mdano/amis/tmopres.pdf

Slide 18/34

Note: the asterisk regarding DAS only applies to Metro pre-merger.

 

This means that TMO's announcement that they are upgrading 37k to LTE means rurals will NOT be included in this particular push.

 

And taking into account

http://www.rcrwireless.com/article/20121116/carriers/metropcs-decommission-10000-sites-part-t-mobile-usa-deal/

 

TMO-metro will have

(52k + 2k) sites + 6k DAS for a total of 60k sites+DAS which jives with the TMO slides from first link.

 

WOOHOOOOO!

[maximus1987/lou99]

So AJ, now that we know for sure that TMO pre-Metro had 51k+ sites, the question is how/why do they need so many to maintain roughly same amount of coverage as Sprint (as you stated) does with 38k+?

Edited July 16, 2013 by asdf190

[jefbal99]

Yes, Milan and I are priming the T-Mobile LTE bandwidth article for wider publication.  The tease on my blog was just to give potential sites (and readers) a taste of the article.  We have some interest from Sascha Segan at PCMag and Brian Klug at AnandTech.  Hopefully, we can announce soon a publication date for later this month.

 

AJ

I added a comment in the article, but I'll repost here for dicussion...

 

In NYC, why doesn't T-Mobile/MetroPCS swap one of the 5Mhz FDD LTE carriers with the 5Mhz FDD CDMA2000 carrier to create a contigious 10Mhz FDD LTE carrier?

 

The only limitation would be the actual mobile devices, do they support CDMA2000 in the AWS C or E blocks?

[maximus1987/lou99]

I added a comment in the article, but I'll repost here for dicussion...

 

In NYC, why doesn't T-Mobile/MetroPCS swap one of the 5Mhz FDD LTE carriers with the 5Mhz FDD CDMA2000 carrier to create a contigious 10Mhz FDD LTE carrier?

 

The only limitation would be the actual mobile devices, do they support CDMA2000 in the AWS C or E blocks?

He described why in the New York market article. You should find it if you search his posts.

[mozamcrew]

I added a comment in the article, but I'll repost here for dicussion...

 

In NYC, why doesn't T-Mobile/MetroPCS swap one of the 5Mhz FDD LTE carriers with the 5Mhz FDD CDMA2000 carrier to create a contigious 10Mhz FDD LTE carrier?

 

The only limitation would be the actual mobile devices, do they support CDMA2000 in the AWS C or E blocks?

My understanding is that almost all of MPCS CDMA network is going awa y once they get most of those customers on TMUS phones, which they will be pushing them to do as part of the merger. TMUS will be keeping about 2k of MPCS's 12k sites (probably in areas where TMUS doesn't already have coverage) and converting them to TMUS's network. When that happens the MPCS spectrum will be freed up for TMUS anyhow, without needing to do any swapping.

[maximus1987/lou99]

I added a comment in the article, but I'll repost here for dicussion...In NYC, why doesn't T-Mobile/MetroPCS swap one of the 5Mhz FDD LTE carriers with the 5Mhz FDD CDMA2000 carrier to create a contigious 10Mhz FDD LTE carrier?The only limitation would be the actual mobile devices, do they support CDMA2000 in the AWS C or E blocks?

Found it.

 

What do I think? Wishful thinking. NYC will not see 10 MHz FDD LTE from T-Mobile anytime this year, potentially not anytime next year either.Here are the real facts. T-Mobile holds 30 MHz of AWS spectrum in NYC, while MetroPCS holds 20 MHz. T-Mobile is currently running DC-HSPA+ (20 MHz) and deploying one 5 MHz FDD LTE carrier. That occupies T-Mobile's 30 MHz AWS bandwidth. MetroPCS, meanwhile, is running several CDMA1X carriers (10 MHz) and one 5 MHz FDD LTE carrier. That takes care of MetroPCS's AWS bandwidth.In order to combine T-Mobile and MetroPCS AWS spectrum to deploy 10 MHz FDD LTE, MetroPCS will have to reprogram all devices to use T-Mobile LTE instead of MetroPCS LTE, shut down its own LTE in the AWS C block, push out new PRLs to all subs, and relocate its CDMA1X carriers from the AWS D block to the C block. Only then can T-Mobile extend its bandwidth from 5 MHz FDD LTE to 10 MHz FDD LTE.In other words, it is a mess. Not gonna happen quickly...AJ

Edited July 16, 2013 by asdf190

[jefbal99]

Found it.

So basically it's possible, but not probable...

 

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

[WiWavelength]

So basically it's possible, but not probable...

 

Yeah, "the switch" is definitely possible.  And it will happen eventually.  But how easily it can be accomplished and how long it will take are more in question...

 

 

AJ

[jefbal99]

Yeah, "the switch" is definitely possible. And it will happen eventually. But how easily it can be accomplished and how long it will take are more in question...

 

 

AJ

Thankfully, I was never a Seinfeld fan and I hate laugh tracks...

 

If it will take two years to get everyone moved and this to happen organically, then 90 days to plan and implement this change is reasonable. It will give both T-Mobile and MetroPCS customers a better LTE experience. Especially in the largest market/customer base.

 

This is all remote programming, just script it out and flip the switch. Clean up the 5% or so errors. T-Mobile customers have HSDPA+ to fall back on and MetroPCS can fall to EvDo if a site doesn't upgrade. Push the PRL and radio update out, have local stores ready to manually do that to support special customers.

 

Unless there is a device incompatibility that won't support the band change, I personally think it is silly not to give your customers the best long and short term solution. Make it be a big local marketing push, announce the hell out of it so customers know it's coming. Sell the higher LTE speeds and greater capacity, etc. Get spots in the local RSNs and during local newscasts.

 

Look what running two different networks did to Sprint. At least there is the LTE compatibility here.

 

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

 

[maximus1987/lou99]

Thankfully, I was never a Seinfeld fan and I hate laugh tracks...

 

If it will take two years to get everyone moved and this to happen organically, then 90 days to plan and implement this change is reasonable. It will give both T-Mobile and MetroPCS customers a better LTE experience. Especially in the largest market/customer base.

 

This is all remote programming, just script it out and flip the switch. Clean up the 5% or so errors. T-Mobile customers have HSDPA+ to fall back on and MetroPCS can fall to EvDo if a site doesn't upgrade. Push the PRL and radio update out, have local stores ready to manually do that to support special customers.

 

Unless there is a device incompatibility that won't support the band change, I personally think it is silly not to give your customers the best long and short term solution. Make it be a big local marketing push, announce the hell out of it so customers know it's coming. Sell the higher LTE speeds and greater capacity, etc. Get spots in the local RSNs and during local newscasts.

 

Look what running two different networks did to Sprint. At least there is the LTE compatibility here.

 

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Legere said they're gonna shut down CDMA end of 2015.

[maximus1987/lou99]

Does TMO's modernized hardware have the ability to do LTE over PCS?

[iansltx]

My guess on why T-Mobile has more sites than Sprint for a smaller coverage footprint (it *is* smaller in square miles) is that they have a denser network. Remember that in some areas (e.g. NYC) T-Mobile was spectrum-constrained on the PCS side for years, particularly with GSM reuse patterns. To get the capacity they needed, rather than whining about more spectrum availability, they just built more sites.

 

In my area of town, T-Mobile's site map looks closer to Clearwire's than Sprint's, despite RF propagation being comparable to (or slightly less than with AWS) Sprint.

 

MetroPCS was in a similar situation. Even fewer markets than T-Mobile, but probably even denser, because any given site didn't have a ton of capacity (not much spectrum in many areas). And the average MetroPCS and T-Mobile customer used (at one time) more voice (higher capacity requirement) due to things like the 1000 minute, $40 plan that T-Mobile had back in '06 or so, or unlimited voice on MetroPCS. As such, I wouldn't be surprised if CricKet has similarly high site densities in the markets it serves.

[iansltx]

Thankfully, I was never a Seinfeld fan and I hate laugh tracks...

 

If it will take two years to get everyone moved and this to happen organically, then 90 days to plan and implement this change is reasonable. It will give both T-Mobile and MetroPCS customers a better LTE experience. Especially in the largest market/customer base.

 

This is all remote programming, just script it out and flip the switch. Clean up the 5% or so errors. T-Mobile customers have HSDPA+ to fall back on and MetroPCS can fall to EvDo if a site doesn't upgrade. Push the PRL and radio update out, have local stores ready to manually do that to support special customers.

 

Unless there is a device incompatibility that won't support the band change, I personally think it is silly not to give your customers the best long and short term solution. Make it be a big local marketing push, announce the hell out of it so customers know it's coming. Sell the higher LTE speeds and greater capacity, etc. Get spots in the local RSNs and during local newscasts.

 

Look what running two different networks did to Sprint. At least there is the LTE compatibility here.

 

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

Remember that MetroPCS was for the longest time (still is in some cases I think) 1x + LTE, not 1x + EvDo + LTE. They don't have much spectrum to work with.

[iansltx]

Also, to be clear, Sprint has a little over 39k CDMA sites (growing slightly on a monthly basis), not 38k.

 

I'm just a bit taken aback by the number of T-Mobile sites that will be sitting on AWS HSPA+ or worse for the foreseeable future. 14k sites...some of which are doubtless deployed for capacity and not just coverage. It's not immediately clear how many of those 14k still have H+, and aren't going LTE due to lack of AWS spectrum, and how many are EDGE or worse with no recourse.

[Fraydog]

 

 

NSFW... how not to do a cell site video. Dumbass deserved the RF burn.