Network Vision/LTE - Chicago Market

[tommym65]

Thanks for the clarification, didn't realize I was getting 1900 Voice/Text on 1xRTT. I do get a strong 1x800 signal in my office where my LTE is weak and borderline fallback, so right there in that instance the idea of 800LTE will probably broadcast a stronger more useable signal there. Even if as you 800LTE will fall somewhere between 1900LTE and 800 voice, it will be a considerable upgrade in not only my office, but many high rises and urban structures downtown. To bad I don't have a B26 device. Oh well.

Almost any time I leave my house (I have an Airave, so I am almost always on 1900 at home), my GS3 seems to be on 1x800 -- it seems to be the preferred connection on the current PRL (although I know 800 is supposed to be the same priority as 1900 voice).

[smalltimehack]

Same priority. Stronger signal from 800.

[tommym65]

Same priority. Stronger signal from 800.

Understood, but even with equal priority and in the presence of strong 1900 signals, for the past few weeks, my GS3 will switch to, and hold, 1x800 almost everywhere I go both in the suburbs and the city.

[Joeynach]

So this is the signal I see in my office building at Ogilvie.  As you say I am connected to 1900Mhz PCS for voice as 1xRTT is strong, but I am also connected to a weak 1900Mhz PCS LTE signal.  I found it a little strange b/c I can see from the App where the signal is coming from, 651 W. Washington, which according to Google Earth is 1200 feet away from my location to the West.  So I am assuming this is the difference between LTE and CDMA technologies....even on the same carrier frequency the LTE signal is much much weaker at that distance from source than is the CDMA?

 

[jamisonshaw125]

So this is the signal I see in my office building at Ogilvie.  As you say I am connected to 1900Mhz PCS for voice as 1xRTT is strong, but I am also connected to a weak 1900Mhz PCS LTE signal.  I found it a little strange b/c I can see from the App where the signal is coming from, 651 W. Washington, which according to Google Earth is 1200 feet away from my location to the West.  So I am assuming this is the difference between LTE and CDMA technologies....even on the same carrier frequency the LTE signal is much much weaker at that distance from source than is the CDMA?

• Between -97dBm and -105dBm is good for LTE

[Joeynach]

And just after I write that last post, I went and updated my PRL, all of sudden sitting at my office desk my phone goes to a 1x800 signal that is producing a stronger signal than the 1xRTT.  The interesting thing is the address, the 1x800 signal is coming from 1015 N Halsted St tower, which is a site about 1.3 Miles away from my location.  Its a tower essentially on Goose Island in the industrial area around Halsted and Division.  While the 1xRTT signal was coming from 1200 feet away and was weaker.  So if that is an indication of the power of the 800Mhz frequency than dear lord, this is a considerable upgrade.  I can only imagine what LTE on 800SMR will actually look like once its in place all over town!

 

So am I even reading all that correct from the Signal Check App.  Does the location given for the BSL show the tower's location that is broadcasting or is it something else?

[S4GRU]

So this is the signal I see in my office building at Ogilvie.  As you say I am connected to 1900Mhz PCS for voice as 1xRTT is strong, but I am also connected to a weak 1900Mhz PCS LTE signal.  I found it a little strange b/c I can see from the App where the signal is coming from, 651 W. Washington, which according to Google Earth is 1200 feet away from my location to the West.  So I am assuming this is the difference between LTE and CDMA technologies....even on the same carrier frequency the LTE signal is much much weaker at that distance from source than is the CDMA?

 

First off, CDMA is reported in RSSI and LTE is reported in RSRP.  You cannot compare the numbers straight up in an apples to apples comparison.  You have to subtract about 25dB from the CDMA number to get a rough equivalent of RSRP.  So a CDMA of -76 RSSI is approximately the same as -101 RSRP.  So you can see the signal strengths are pretty close.

 

Second, you do not know what site your LTE is coming from.  CDMA and LTE can come from two different locations completely.  The app tells you which CDMA site your 1x connection is coming from, but it cannot tell you which one your LTE is coming from, because the LTE does not populate any base station location info in Android.  So you never can be sure if you are connected to the same CDMA and LTE site in an urban/suburban area.  So comparing signal strength to draw conclusions is not really possible.

 

Last, I would like to explain something else.  From the same site, CDMA and LTE on 1900 broadcast at similar power levels will have similar signal strength as you go away from the site.  So if you are standing in front of the site and are getting -50 RSSI on CDMA, you would get roughly -75 RSRP on LTE...the same signal strength.  If you went a 1/2 mile away and the CDMA was -75 RSSI, you would get roughly -100 RSRP on LTE...the same signal strength.  

 

If you went indoors a half mile away and the CDMA was -95 RSSI CDMA, you would get roughly -120 RSRP on LTE.  These are the exact same signal strength.  However, this tends to be the maximum level that a good quality LTE signal can use.  Depending on your device and interference, you may or may not be able to stay connected to LTE here, even though CDMA is working just fine.  This is a good understanding of how the fragile nature of LTE works.  It's not that the signal is weaker as you get away from the site.  It's that LTE needs a stronger signal to be functional.

 

If you even took this out a little further and go into the basement.  If the CDMA dropped to -105 RSSI, you may be able to text or make a call.  Your device would likely not connect to LTE at all, but the signal would still be there.  Around -130 RSRP on the LTE.  But your device could not use, and may not even see it.  However, some hotspots in ideal situations may be able to use a signal that weak with limited performance.

 

Robert

[Joeynach]

First off, CDMA is reported in RSSI and LTE is reported in RSRP.  You cannot compare the numbers straight up in an apples to apples comparison.  You have to subtract about 25dB from the CDMA number to get a rough equivalent of RSRP.  So a CDMA of -76 RSSI is approximately the same as -101 RSRP.  So you can see the signal strengths are pretty close.

 

Second, you do not know what site your LTE is coming from.  CDMA and LTE can come from two different locations completely.  The app tells you which CDMA site your 1x connection is coming from, but it cannot tell you which one your LTE is coming from, because the LTE does not populate any base station location info in Android.  So you never can be sure if you are connected to the same CDMA and LTE site in an urban/suburban area.  So comparing signal strength to draw conclusions is not really possible.

 

Last, I would like to explain something else.  From the same site, CDMA and LTE on 1900 broadcast at similar power levels will have similar signal strength as you go away from the site.  So if you are standing in front of the site and are getting -50 RSSI on CDMA, you would get roughly -75 RSRP on LTE...the same signal strength.  If you went a 1/2 mile away and the CDMA was -75 RSSI, you would get roughly -100 RSRP on LTE...the same signal strength.  

 

If you went indoors a half mile away and the CDMA was -95 RSSI CDMA, you would get roughly -120 RSRP on LTE.  These are the exact same signal strength.  However, this tends to be the maximum level that a good quality LTE signal can use.  Depending on your device and interference, you may or may not be able to stay connected to LTE here, even though CDMA is working just fine.  This is a good understanding of how the fragile nature of LTE works.  It's not that the signal is weaker as you get away from the site.  It's that LTE needs a stronger signal to be functional.

 

If you even took this out a little further and go into the basement.  If the CDMA dropped to -105 RSSI, you may be able to text or make a call.  Your device would likely not connect to LTE at all, but the signal would still be there.  Around -130 RSRP on the LTE.  But your device could not use, and may not even see it.  However, some hotspots in ideal situations may be able to use a signal that weak with limited performance.

 

Robert

Super awesome.  Everytime you chime in I learn something new.

[tommym65]

And, sadly, your (and my) GS3 don't report the LTE cell id, either to Mike's Signal Check app or to the engineering screens. They do report the sector ID, but only to the engineering screen. If anyone had put together an LTE spreadsheet for Chicago like digiblur did for New Orleans, you would be able to correlate id's with LTE site locations, but I don't think anyone has done that for Chicago.

[drock2750]

A software update to enable sprint spark was announced yesterday apparently...

 

http://www.androidpolice.com/2014/01/27/sprint-announces-lg-g2-ota-update-enabling-sprint-spark-bands-and-the-accompanying-spinning-status-bar-icon/

 

Just days in advance of the US Cellular shutdown in Chicago hmmm interesting...

[gnoj]

-USCC Network is already turned off.

 

From what I've been informed specifically for Chicago it was the end of the year. There were less than 800 USCC subscribers approximately ~2 weeks ago. 

 

Nope. I just pulled out an old USCC phone and it still reports a strong native 1x & Ev-DO signal in the western suburbs. They specifically promised to keep their network up until the end of January, so that is what they'll have to do. I'm sure Sprint has enough to keep them busy for these last couple days that they won't mind the wait.

 

As Robert has pointed out, they could have already installed the second PCS LTE carrier card, and come February 1st it will be remotely fired up across the region. That does assume they got their requests to increase the provisioned fiber speeds in on time. (yn) If not, they can always get it done when they go through to activate 800 MHz LTE.

[Joeynach]

A software update to enable sprint spark was announced yesterday apparently...

 

http://www.androidpolice.com/2014/01/27/sprint-announces-lg-g2-ota-update-enabling-sprint-spark-bands-and-the-accompanying-spinning-status-bar-icon/

 

Just days in advance of the US Cellular shutdown in Chicago hmmm interesting...

U gotta check out the two dudes having it out in the comments section of this article, its freaking epic!

[WiWavelength]

U gotta check out the two dudes having it out in the comments section of this article, its freaking epic!

 

Uh, Koi is an S4GRU Premier sponsor and an all around good guy.  The other commenter, well, he is a moronic loser.

 

AJ

[tommym65]

Uh, Koi is an S4GRU Premier sponsor and an all around good guy.  The other commenter, well, he is a moronic loser. AJ

AJ, you treat foul-mouthed loser-guy with far too much respect. Somehow, I don't think he would last too long in S4GRU-Land.

[WiWavelength]

AJ, you treat foul-mouthed loser-guy with far too much respect. Somehow, I don't think he would last too long in S4GRU-Land.

Oh, I had other words come to mind to describe that commenter. But you cannot stoop to his level. Otherwise, your argument gets dragged down into the gutter, and he effectively wins.

 

AJ

[Destroyallcubes]

It took me a few seconds to figure out what "wifi spots" are. Haha

[S4GRU]

It took me a few seconds to figure out what "wifi spots" are. Haha

 

But do they leave ring around the collar?

 

Robert

[WiWavelength]

It took me a few seconds to figure out what "wifi spots" are. Haha

 

If your wifey leaves spots, the least that she can do is clean them up.

 

AJ

[gnoj]

As mentioned in AJ's article about the USCC spectrum deal, it is always advantageous to have your spectrum holdings be as contiguous as possible, as spectrum dedicated to guard bands can instead be used by the network to carry voice or data traffic. Seeing that very soon the number of PCS operators in Chicagoland will decline from 6 5 to 4 (not including the new H block licensee), it seems timely to evaluate how the remaining cellular providers can work together to improve all of their positions in this market. I'm sure similar deals could be struck in other areas as well.

Here is the current (post-USCC) allocation of PCS in Chicago, as of February 1, 2014:

A: 1850–1865 MHz x 1930–1945 MHz- AT&T*
D: 1865–1870 MHz x 1945–1950 MHz- Sprint
B (lower 20 MHz): 1870–1880 MHz x 1950–1960 MHz- Sprint (from USCC)
B (upper 10 MHz): 1880-1885 MHz x 1960-1965 MHz- VZW
E: 1885–1890 MHz x 1965–1970 MHz- Sprint
F: 1890–1895 MHz x 1970–1975 MHz- AT&T
C: 1895–1910 MHz x 1975–1990 MHz- TMUS
G: 1910–1915 MHz x 1990–1995 MHz- Sprint

*Includes Leap's PCS holdings. These proposals assume that AT&T will not sell or be required to divest any of this spectrum as a condition of that merger.

Below are 2 alternative configurations:

Optimal band configuration without S-TMUS merger:

1.) Sprint swaps their D block to AT&T in return for AT&T's F block.
2.) Sprint swaps newly acquired F block + cash incentives for VZW to move off their portion of the B block.

    1850-1870 MHz x 1930-1950 MHz (A/D): AT&T (20x20)
    1870-1890 MHz x 1950-1970 MHz (B/E): Sprint (20x20)
    1890–1895 MHz x 1970–1975 MHz (F): VZW (5x5)
    1895–1910 MHz x 1975–1990 MHz ( C ): TMUS (15x15)
    1910–1915 MHz x 1990–1995 MHz (G): Sprint (5x5)

Optimal band configuration with S-TMUS merger:

1.) Sprint swaps their D block to AT&T in return for AT&T's F block (same as other proposal).
2.) Sprint sells/divests their 10x10 portion of the B block to VZW. (FCC would likely demand divestiture of some PCS)

    1850-1870 MHz x 1930-1950 MHz (A/D): AT&T (20x20)
    1870-1885 MHz x 1950-1965 MHz ( B ) VZW (15x15)
    1885-1915 MHz x 1965-1995 MHz (E/F/C/G): Sprint (30x30)
    
This would appear to be a win-win-win for everyone, giving AT&T and Sprint each a continuous 20x20 swath (apart from the G block), and VZW a little extra cash to help pay for, say, the Vodafone buyout (and who is Verizon to say no to money?) If my calculations are correct, this would give Sprint room for 6 CDMA carriers (which is what they have now) and *two* more 5 MHz FDD LTE carriers, including guard bands. With that much LTE capacity, the current number of CDMA Ev-DO carriers would likely be adequate. If only one additional LTE carrier is needed, then the remaining spectrum could be used for a handful of extra 1xA or Ev-DO carriers.

Sprint will need to maintain the existing 5MHz LTE G block carrier for quite some time, thanks to the large number of Samsung devices in use that were never certified for larger channel widths. As such, the no-merger proposal does not bother to ask T-Mobile to move from the adjoining C block. If the time comes when Sprint is interested in merging the C and G blocks for a wider LTE carrier, they may be able to persuade T-Mobile to swap their 30 MHz C block for the 30 MHz B block, assuming the companies have not merged by then.

 

Edit: Caught a mistake- unlike most of their markets, Leap/Cricket never held any PCS in Chicago, only the 5x5 AWS-1 D block license (not counting the 6x6 700 A block license they bought from VZW but couldn't deploy), which is why they didn't launch service in the area until 2009. I wonder if T-Mobile has spoken to AT&T about purchasing that 700A license...

[Vince]

Got my spark update on my g2, and this is what I got sitting in my truck in Cicero. This is one happy Sprint customer. I can finally use data where pcs data was failing me.

 

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Joeynach]

Got my spark update on my g2, and this is what I got sitting in my truck in Cicero. This is one happy Sprint customer. I can finally use data where pcs data was failing me.

 

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk

Lucky you, I know you are a premium sponsor so you will know where your B41 towers are located.  You must have drove right up to a B41 site to get that kind of speed.  Cheater . Still nothing to report on your quest for B26?  Does the new Spark update for the G2 activate the B26 LTE as well? 

 

Too bad they haven't pushed the Spark update the N5 yet, two of my buddies have those.  They have been complaining since they got them since they have been stuck on the slower than dialup B25 LTE service for a couple months.  I will let them know to go through the software update (MSL) when that device gets it.  They are city folks like me, so I will be asking them to provide me speed test and Signal Check screenshots from downtown locations once we get there.

[WiWavelength]

Got my spark update on my g2, and this is what I got sitting in my truck in Cicero.

 

If you were running speed tests inside a vehicle in Cicero, I hope that you are white and Italian.  That probably explains how you made it out unscathed.

 

 

AJ

[Vince]

Lucky you, I know you are a premium sponsor so you will know where your B41 towers are located. You must have drove right up to a B41 site to get that kind of speed. Cheater . Still nothing to report on your quest for B26? Does the new Spark update for the G2 activate the B26 LTE as well?

 

Too bad they haven't pushed the Spark update the N5 yet, two of my buddies have those. They have been complaining since they got them since they have been stuck on the slower than dialup B25 LTE service for a couple months. I will let them know to go through the software update (MSL) when that device gets it. They are city folks like me, so I will be asking them to provide me speed test and Signal Check screenshots from downtown locations once we get there.

Yes. The g2 is a triband device, so 26 is also there. Chicago has no 26 yet. This test was done 1 block, clear line of sight to a 41 tower. All night long, everywhere i drive throughout the southside, speeds were in the 20-50mbps range. I haven't detached from 41 since i got to work. To have working data again is absolutely fantastic, and i'm more than thrilled now.

 

 

If you were running speed tests inside a vehicle in Cicero, I hope that you are white and Italian. That probably explains how you made it out unscathed.

 

 

AJ

Yes and yes. My last name should have given that away. I was in a secured rail yard inside my truck, thankfully.

 

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk

 

 

[dParis]

Got my spark update on my g2, and this is what I got sitting in my truck in Cicero. This is one happy Sprint customer. I can finally use data where pcs data was failing me.

 

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk

Nice! My Chicagoland G2 is still waiting for Spark. Are there particular settings or updates I need to make to my phone to prep it for the Spark update?

 

Too bad they haven't pushed the Spark update the N5 yet, two of my buddies have those. They have been complaining since they got them since they have been stuck on the slower than dialup B25 LTE service for a couple months.

Is this hyperbole, or are their lte connections literally slower than dial-up? Though it might not be blowing my hair back, my B25 lte connection is pretty snappy.

 

If you were running speed tests inside a vehicle in Cicero, I hope that you are white and Italian. That probably explains how you made it out unscathed.

 

 

AJ

Someone hasn't been to Cicero in a while, amigos.

Edited January 30, 2014 by dParis

[Joeynach]

Yes. The g2 is a triband device, so 26 is also there. Chicago has no 26 yet. This test was done 1 block, clear line of sight to a 41 tower. All night long, everywhere i drive throughout the southside, speeds were in the 20-50mbps range. I haven't detached from 41 since i got to work. To have working data again is absolutely fantastic, and i'm more than thrilled now.

 

 

Yes and yes. My last name should have given that away. I was in a secured rail yard inside my truck, thankfully.

 

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Tapatalk

Really still, ya know Robert made an update to the LTE800 maps.  A huge upgrade at that.  Go take a look again, I believe there is one site in your hood that may be active.  And to everyone else, I recently donated enough to become a Premier Sponsor, with the information and maps on LTE2600 and LTE800 it is will worth the investment.  I highly recommend,  I think that investment alone has changed my 2014 attitude about Sprint after looking at some of the maps.