Sprint to expand to Montana using shut down CellularOne sites

[WiWavelength]

That'd be so bad. Too many users for one tower. Sprint is just gonna  build out on all of those old CellularOne sites.

If Sprint were to do that people wouldn't come because coverage would be poor in too many places. If people did come, the network would get loaded way to quickly. If you want to put one tower in a small town, that's one thing. But one tower in a city is not nearly enough.

 

License protection is not about providing high quality service.  It is about providing "substantial service" by covering reasonable numbers of POPs.  In the likes of Billings, Bismarck, Rapid City, etc., that could be accomplished with just one to a few sites per city.  Do not get your hopes up for anything greater than that.

 

AJ

[S4GRU]

To give an example in Rapid City, Sprint could provide substantial service with two well placed sites. Or 3 or 4 less than perfectly placed sites. However, AT&T has 13 sites covering Rapid City and VZW has 12. So the difference would be very significant.

 

Using Moto X² on Tapatalk

[Paynefanbro]

License protection is not about providing high quality service.  It is about providing "substantial service" by covering reasonable numbers of POPs.  In the likes of Billings, Bismarck, Rapid City, etc., that could be accomplished with just one to a few sites per city.  Do not get your hopes up for anything greater than that.

 

AJ

 

I understand how license protection sites work. It's just that I don't see why Sprint would bother only putting up a skeleton network if they already own all of CellularOne's sites in the region. I could see if at first they want to do that, but if they ever plan on selling service they're going to have to do much better than that.

[Josh]

I understand how license protection sites work. It's just that I don't see why Sprint would bother only putting up a skeleton network if they already own all of CellularOne's sites in the region. I could see if at first they want to do that, but if they ever plan on selling service they're going to have to do much better than that.

I agree with you, but remember that they are strapped for cash. They first have to protect the spectrum, loosing that would ruin any future chances in the area. This will reduce roaming costs and give them time to figure out weather they want to market themselves in the area. If they do, and they see it as profitable, they will probably use all the cellular one leases but not likely add any other towers until absolutely necessary. Remember cell one was not able to be profitable in this area! Sprint can sell the fact that they are a national carrier, but will need coverage that is half decent to steal customers from the big 2. Well have to are if they have any surprises for us, but gaining customers here could help sprint combat losing customers to t-mobile I'm the major metro areas.

[S4GRU]

An S4GRU article about Sprint network expansion, including the Project Cedar expansion to Montana has been posted:  http://s4gru.com/index.php?/blog/1/entry-382-sprint-planning-large-network-expansion-adding-9000-new-lte-sites-nationwide/

[Josh]

To hear that Chinook only used 120-140 towers, I am very surprised. I know that they were not the coverage kings, but even 230 is fewer than we have in the Pittsburgh area, and although it is very hilly are hard to cover well in the outskirts of town... this still seems low if this is potentially going to spill into the Dakotas.  I suppose that in Montana since they have a half the population of the Pittsburgh MSA and 25 times the area, this will still only cover highways and major cities.  

 

Since we do not know the plans yet for the new expansion, it would be possible that some of the sites that are currently being planned overlap the other 2 expansion projects in some way (like 2600 fill-in sites), but it is just good to see that there is news here.  We waited wondering for too long, seriously, thank you Robert... Information was getting as scarce as a warm day here in Pittsburgh, lol.  

[gnoj]

Couldn't Sprint just deploy 1 site per city since 800 has the range to cover an entire city?

That would be adequate if all they were looking to do is build a skeleton network (à la T-Mobile in Omaha/Lincoln) and make some financial sense if they had absolutely zero sites licensed to start with.

 

However, with the ~130 Chinook sites already in hand, and another 100+ planned (although we don't know yet if those additional sites will all be located within Montana, or also cover parts of WY & the Dakotas), I had the impression (even before Project Cedar was leaked) that Sprint aims to have the network at a high enough quality at launch so that it can be marketed locally to compete with and attract customers away from the duopoly, rather than being solely for license protection and existing subs passing through. One site per city would not be sufficient to meet the subsequent demand.

 

If the new network is able to provide good coverage within the top 7 cities that have at least 20K POPs (Billings, Missoula, Great Falls, Bozeman, Butte, Helena, and Kalispell), all the highways between them, and the interstates at launch, then they should do very well. As a new entrant, having a neutral brand image will certainly help.

[S4GRU]

To hear that Chinook only used 120-140 towers, I am very surprised. I know that they were not the coverage kings, but even 230 is fewer than we have in the Pittsburgh area, and although it is very hilly are hard to cover well in the outskirts of town... this still seems low if this is potentially going to spill into the Dakotas. I suppose that in Montana since they have a half the population of the Pittsburgh MSA and 25 times the area, this will still only cover highways and major cities.

 

Since we do not know the plans yet for the new expansion, it would be possible that some of the sites that are currently being planned overlap the other 2 expansion projects in some way (like 2600 fill-in sites), but it is just good to see that there is news here. We waited wondering for too long, seriously, thank you Robert... Information was getting as scarce as a warm day here in Pittsburgh, lol.

My take off is:

 

Billings - 12 sites

Great Falls - 10 sites

Missoula - 10 sites

Bozeman - 8 sites

Butte - 5 sites

Helena - 5 sites

Kalispell - 5 sites

 

That's 55 sites in the largest cities. The other remaining 65-85 sites would be distributed among all the other towns (w/one or two sites each) and connect the cities along I-90 and I-15.

 

This provides an equal or better coverage than Sprint typically would provide to these size towns and coverage areas in PCS. I think I was pretty generous in my take off. And have proven pretty accurate in the past. If I'm wrong, it would be in the 20-25% range, not 100%.

 

So my conclusion is that Sprint's Project Cedar with 230 sites is well beyond Chinook Wireless' Montana and Wyoming network alone. Seems to me Chinook only makes up just over half.

 

In comparison, Swiftel would only use 3 sites in cities the size of Helena, Butte and Kalispell for PCS. And they have less than 12 sites for Sioux Falls, even though Sioux Falls has almost double the population of Billings. So I was pretty generous in my takeoff.

 

Given Sprint's use of 800MHz, they would have kick ass coverage with the densities I outlined for Montana cities. And adding B41 in at least the cities would give them mondo capacity.

 

Since they will start with very few customers in the area, I'm not sure they need these types of densities to start. They just need complete coverage, and just be proactive in adding density in the larger communities as subscriber counts support it. If Sprint is putting all 230 sites inside Chinook's footprint, than their density is double Verizon in the same area and they are wasting a lot of money to enter a new market.

 

Just by adding 800, Sprint's network in Montana will be way better than CellularOne ever was before it. It's exciting what Sprint can do with just 100 well placed sites. That's one of the reasons why this 9,000 site expansion is exciting and significant. Every subscriber should notice it in at least one place they frequent by the time it's done.

[S4GRU]

The other areas that I considered could be part of Project Cedar are:

 

Casper - 10 sites

Rapid City - 10 sites

Bismarck - 10 sites

Gillette - 5 sites

 

All other cities could be handled with one or two sites. For instance, AT&T only has two sites in Pierre and Dickinson. I don't think Sprint needs to add service in Williston and Minot, because I recall there is an RRPP member there.

 

This gives Sprint an almost equal density to AT&T in the cities. Between 4:5 and 1:1. And AT&T has between 30%-50% market share in this area. The best Sprint could ever achieve is 30%.

 

In places like Rapid City and Casper, Sprint could go in with as few as 5 sites and have 100% coverage, including indoors. And then just add more for density as subscriber numbers allow. But I think Project Cedar numbers could allow for even up to 10 now.

 

These densities I have figured for Sprint in Project Cedar is very generous just to allocate 230 sites in an expanded area beyond Chinook. So you can see why I think Sprint is up to more than just Chinook with this project.

[cdk]

These densities I have figured for Sprint in Project Cedar is very generous just to allocate 230 sites in an expanded area beyond Chinook. So you can see why I think Sprint is up to more than just Chinook with this project.

 

Did you consider just the sites Chinook built, or did you also include the sites that Chinook had planned to build?

[S4GRU]

Did you consider just the sites Chinook built, or did you also include the sites that Chinook had planned to build?

There is no way to quantify any Chinook future plans. So no, I did not consider that. And if Chinook didn't already have at least site leases in those future sites, their plans are not going to be very useful. Sprint would have likely ignored them and relied in their own planning. But Sprint starting up service just over Chinook's existing footprint is pretty darn impressive. Especially since Sprint will have 800 included overlaid on what was a 1900 only network.

 

Also, I believe Chinook was already pretty built out in areas it already had spectrum. Any future plans would have been limited to densification or another rural tower here or there. Nothing substantive without obtaining new spectrum licenses.

[Rawvega]

The other areas that I considered could be part of Project Cedar are:

 

Casper - 10 sites

Rapid City - 10 sites

Bismarck - 10 sites

Gillette - 5 sites

 

Along those lines do you think Sprint may add site(s) in the Keystone/Black Hills/Mt. Rushmore areas? I'd have to believe that there's a fair amount of roaming from tourists, at least during the summer months.

[S4GRU]

Along those lines do you think Sprint may add site(s) in the Keystone/Black Hills/Mt. Rushmore areas? I'd have to believe that there's a fair amount of roaming from tourists, at least during the summer months.

They could. It wouldn't take many sites. AT&T has the following: Lead/Deadwood (3), Nemo (1), Pactola (1), Hill City (1), Keystone/Mt. Rushmore (2), Custer (2), Custer State Park (2), Hot Springs (1), Pringle (1).

 

13 sites in the Black Hills would equal AT&T. Sprint could do just two in Lead/Deadwood, skip Nemo, do one in Custer, skip Custer State Park and Pringle and still offer fair coverage in the Hills. That would only be 8 sites. I would advise them to do between 8-13.

 

Covering Custer/Mt. Rushmore and the highways to Rapid, as well as Lead and Deadwood are the most critical parts. And their roaming bill has to be significant. Especially during the summer and the Sturgis rally.

[dnwk]

No need to sell service initially.  But might as well reduce your roaming costs to help pay for this.  Just supporting roaming Sprint subscribers travelling through the area, the existing network should perform just fine.  I'm not sure Sprint will ever put up brick and mortar stores in the area.

 

Robert

 

 

No, they will build stores with the help from RadioShack?

[Deval]

No, they will build stores with the help from RadioShack?

 

You mean, if the store is going to close, and the deal goes through, the new RadioShack + Sprint store will be open?

[dkyeager]

Was in a Radio Shack store yesterday. About half are closing. This one will stay open but does only a few phone sales. Another store which the clerk had worked in, did far far more phone sales, but is being closed. Sprint will take over half this store in two months.

[dkyeager]

This may be the lost Sprint Test Colony of Montana (or just a DAS or another possibility):

 

Microwave link started in 2012/13:

http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/licensePathsSum.jsp?licKey=3385957

http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/licensePathsDetail.jsp?pageNumToReturn=1&licKey=3385958&keyPath=403463

 

This link speed is frequently found at our more remote sites in Ohio.

 

Look at this with google earth and street view -- not conclusive, but only one provider - https://www.google.com/maps/place/45%C2%B040%2725.0%22N+111%C2%B008%2733.0%22W/@45.6736111,-111.1425,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0

 

(some of the other microwave dates go back to the wimax time frame)

 

 

Another pair that are away from the protection sites:

 

http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/licensePathsDetail.jsp?pageNumToReturn=1&licKey=2993707&keyPath=285921

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/45%C2%B050%2717.3%22N+112%C2%B041%2710.4%22W/@45.7203036,-112.4886507,10z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0

 

http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/licensePathsDetail.jsp?pageNumToReturn=1&licKey=2993708&keyPath=285922

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/46%C2%B000%2731.8%22N+112%C2%B039%2717.7%22W/@46.00586,-112.6489944,15z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0

[S4GRU]

This may be the lost Sprint Test Colony of Montana (or just a DAS):

 

 

 

Great find!  The dates work well with the B26 FIT.

[bretton88]

Great find! The dates work well with the B26 FIT.

Do you think these sites would still be operational to connect to?

[S4GRU]

Do you think these sites would still be operational to connect to?

 

Could be.  I wish I had time in the next few months to go check it out.  I may make time, though.  

[bretton88]

Being that these are near Bozemon they might have kept them operational if they where full builds to cut down roaming costs.

[S4GRU]

Being that these are near Bozemon they might have kept them operational if they where full builds to cut down roaming costs.

 

If they fired up CDMA, perhaps they are still live.  If they never bothered to fire up CDMA, they may have taken them down when complete.  Or kept them non-commercial and not available to public traffic.  If they were live, you'd think someone would have put up some purple on Sensorly by now.  But stranger things have happened.

[gman1000]

I was up the 15 corridor and stayed in Butte and Bozeman and did not find anything but roaming. However, I had an iPhone 5 at the time so that did not help.

[RAvirani]

Bump

[grapkoski]

Bump

 

Hey there... gonna buy me a drink?