Future 600 MHz band & OTHER discussion thread (was "Sprint + 600 MHz?")

[maximus1987/lou99]

Does anyone have any inkling if Sprint will end up bidding for the 600 MHz spectrum?

 

Sprint appears interested in participating in the auction, as indicated by their (very readable) submission to the FCC:

http://apps.fcc.gov/...w?id=7022112071

 

In said proposal, they advocate for a TDD band-plan (pg. 22)

[S4GRU]

I think they will bid unless not allowed to by the FCC. The Clearwire spectrum gain via purchase may cause problems for them bidding on future spectrum. I'm still not sure how PCS H Block and 600MHz auctions will play out.

 

Robert via Nexus 7 with Tapatalk HD

[digiblur]

If they keep going lower they might have to put pull out antennas on our phones again

 

Sent from my little Note2

 

 

[S4GRU]

If they keep going lower they might have to put pull out antennas on our phones again

 

Sent from my little Note2

 

Or we all will be carrying tablet phones!

 

Robert via Nexus 7 with Tapatalk HD

[4ginnc]

How big of an advantage does 600MHz have over 800MHz as far as building penetration, distance, etc (compared to 800 vs 1900 for example)

?

[WiWavelength]

How big of an advantage does 600MHz have over 800MHz as far as building penetration, distance, etc (compared to 800 vs 1900 for example)

?

 

The free space path loss difference between 600 MHz and 800 MHz is about 2 dB, while the same between 800 MHz and 1900 MHz is about 7 dB.

 

AJ

[4ginnc]

Thanks AJ. So it's not as big of a gain, but still somewhat better.

[S4GRU]

Thanks AJ. So it's not as big of a gain, but still somewhat better.

 

The big advantage of 600MHz for Sprint would be to level the playing field with the duopoly with lower frequency spectrum. If Sprint could have at least a 10x10 LTE carrier in 600, then they would be sitting very good for the long term.

 

Although, I'm not sure 600 is necessary. With an aggressive LTE 2600 plan in place, and refarmed PCS, and placing LTE 800 as the lowest priority to be used only when you can't get a PCS or 2600 signal, then LTE 800 probably can meet Sprint's low frequency needs for a long time.

 

The big problem Sprint has with SMR 800 is that they do not have 14MHz nationwide. In those places, a big chunk of 600 could be very helpful.

 

Robert

[jefbal99]

Thanks AJ. So it's not as big of a gain, but still somewhat better.

 

The gain would be in how much spectrum Sprint gets in 600Mhz. The SMR spectrum is only 14Mhz (7Mhz FDD) so there is only enough space for a voice and single LTE carrier. If Sprint could get a 20+ Mhz piece for TDD in 600Mhz, that would be huge over the existing PCS home of Sprint.

[lynyrd65]

Its interesting to me that they are advocating for TDD on the 600 band.

 

I wonder if their real intentions in doing that is to push the FCC into making FDD and TDD bands where the TDD bands would be much less likely to be bid on by anyone but themselves (lower price), securing a 600mhz TDD block to Sprint as their own proprietary band.

[supert0nes]

Honestly, I just hope T-Mobile gets some nation wide. Sprint would be a bonus.

[Fraydog]

I imagine T-Mobile will have some incentive to get low band spectrum kind of like 3 did in the UK (they got a 5x5 in the Ofcom Digital Dividend auction).

[WiWavelength]

Its interesting to me that they are advocating for TDD on the 600 band.

 

The problem with FDD operation in the 600 MHz band is that it would require a duplex gap. So, what would occupy the duplex gap? A DTV broadcaster? Nope. A guard band? Maybe, but wasteful. And however large the duplex gap would be, it would add to the size of the band, thus increasing the spectrum that would have to be cleared. Honestly, this UHF TV 600 MHz incentive auction looks like a "big bag of hurt." Broadcasters are resistant, and I am not sure that any meaningful results will emerge.

 

AJ

[Fraydog]

The major issue I see with all of this is that the current methods of managing by the FCC are making all of this understanding far too complicated. We should be seeking to make all the spectrum allocations more simple, not more complex.

[userkv8031]

If they keep going lower they might have to put pull out antennas on our phones again

 

Sent from my little Note2

 

A lot of those phones also had the plug in the back for external antennas. I miss ext. antennas as they help immensely in some areas. All of the various bands seems like it would start raising compatibility issues between carriers. I can see 600 being helpful for Sprint if they ever plan on expanding to rural areas.

 

I know the FCC has been debating a spectrum screen but I thought they were thinking about excluding frequencies above 2 GHz or something around there. That makes sense to me as it takes a lot to build a mobile network with such a high frequency. I don't expect to see LTE on 2500 in more rural areas except at protection sites.

[digiblur]

Start raising issues? It already has.

 

Sent from my little Note2

 

 

[Fraydog]

Start raising issues? It already has.

 

Sent from my little Note2

 

Bingo. We already have compatabilty issues out the Wazoo with LTE, which in theory should have been able to bring together fractured technologies and unite them.

[MacPCS]

Does Sprint really need to fragment their spectrum offerings further? Yes having a good mix is a Very Good Thing™ but once you get all of your bases covered with a nice low frequency (800), mid (1900) and high frequency (2500) then adding a fourth frequency to the bag for device manufacturers to support IMO would be asking a lot. Particularly if it's just for you and you're already having them implement 800 and 2500 that nobody else uses.

[S4GRU]

Does Sprint really need to fragment their spectrum offerings further? Yes having a good mix is a Very Good Thing™ but once you get all of your bases covered with a nice low frequency (800), mid (1900) and high frequency (2500) then adding a fourth frequency to the bag for device manufacturers to support IMO would be asking a lot. Particularly if it's just for you and you're already having them implement 800 and 2500 that nobody else uses.

 

This will be the same position that all carriers will have that pursue 600MHz. I think USCC has proven with their devices that supporting a lot of bands is not as problematic on the device side as it was just 1-1/2 years ago. And with Network Vision, it's not a very big deal on the network side. Lots of bands is inevitable for all medium to large American carriers in the future. Adaptation is already occurring.

 

Robert

[iansltx]

Hitting 600MHz with TD-LTE on a network spaced for PCS CDMA (like Sprint's...and T-Mobile's...are) would practically erase in-building reception concerns, while still providing plenty of capacity in such situations, something that a 5x5 SMR channel does to an extent, but not quite as well (2db doesn't make too much of a difference, but triple the downstream capacity does).

 

Heck, at 600MHz VoLTE would actually be a reasonable proposition (though you'd need to adjust the time slot ratio toward upload slightly), so you could conceivably end up with 100% FD-LTE in PCS, 100% TD-LTE in EBS/BRS, a single 1x channel in SMR for "legacy" phones, as much FD-LTE as you can fit into the remainder of SMR, and 100% TD-LTE in 600MHz, five or six years from now.Yes, that means that you've got at least four LTE bands on every phone you sell, but you might be able to get away with an LTE-only phone at that point, and that's huge.

[maximus1987/lou99]

The problem with FDD operation in the 600 MHz band is that it would require a duplex gap. So, what would occupy the duplex gap? A DTV broadcaster? Nope. A guard band? Maybe, but wasteful. And however large the duplex gap would be, it would add to the size of the band, thus increasing the spectrum that would have to be cleared. Honestly, this UHF TV 600 MHz incentive auction looks like a "big bag of hurt." Broadcasters are resistant, and I am not sure that any meaningful results will emerge.

 

AJ

 

What right do the broadcasters have to resist spectrum reclamation?

They were given the spectrum for free, they made money from advertising, then they starting making money from re-transmission fees.

Now, they feel entitled to proceeds from the auction?

@#$!?

[4ktvs]

I really think t-mobile would be the best fit for the 600mhz block due to them only having 1700/2100 for LTE and 1900 PCs for 3g/2g. Sprint is going to have 800,1900,2500 and AT&T has 700, 1700/2100 and now 2000 Verizon has 700 and now 1700/2100. So I think T-mobile is the best fit, but the more the better I guess if sprint want's to have 20mhz more bandwith along with better in building speeds.

[WiWavelength]

What right do the broadcasters have to resist spectrum reclamation?

They were given the spectrum for free, they made money from advertising, then they starting making money from re-transmission fees.

Now, they feel entitled to proceeds from the auction?

@#$!?

 

That no compromise polemic will just further the animosity and accomplish nothing. Here are the problems with your perspective.

 

Broadcasters received licenses in exchange for providing a public service. To that end, licensees have invested billions in transmission facilities. If licensees are to relinquish those broadcast rights, they need to be compensated, at the very least, for their investment in equipment rendered useless.

 

As for unjust enrichment from their licenses, get used to it. VZW and AT&T hold hundreds of Cellular 850 MHz licenses that were awarded for free to their Baby Bell forebears. And many of those licenses have been sold several times over for billions of dollars.

 

AJ

[RCM]

What right do the broadcasters have to resist spectrum reclamation?

They were given the spectrum for free, they made money from advertising, then they starting making money from re-transmission fees.

Now, they feel entitled to proceeds from the auction?

@#$!?

 

Seems like another "screw the broadcasters and amateur radio operators because I want to download porn at blazing speeds."

[maximus1987/lou99]

 

 

Seems like another "screw the broadcasters and amateur radio operators because I want to download porn at blazing speeds."

 

They made billions - net! - using a natural resource they receved for free! How exactly are they being screwed? They can bid for spectrum if they want and use LTE broadcast. At least that way, they won't have gotten something for nothing.