Future 600 MHz band & OTHER discussion thread (was "Sprint + 600 MHz?")

[maximus1987/lou99]

 

 

So do I. Tmobile is proposing separating the 600 MHz spectrum into 5 MHz blocks for auction. I really hope all of the TV broadcasters give up their 600 MHz spectrum and take the FCC payment to free up more spectrum for wireless.

 

I agree with maximus1987 in that Verizon and ATT should only be allowed to bid on one 5x5 block and that is it. Sprint, Tmobile and the remaining smaller carriers should only be allowed to bid on the rest of the 5x5 blocks.

 

 

It's going to be hard to get stations to give up their spectrum. With the switch to digital just a few years ago forcing some stations to revamp their transmitters, I don't see it happening again soon. Smaller stations, like mine, are in no position to be changing transmitters.

 

 

I was wondering with all the consolidation in the broadcast TV industry lately (Gannett buying King-TV and Tribune buying Local TV Holdings) a lot of the analysts like these deals because the bigger companies will be getting more/better re-transmission fees from cable companies. I know that the 600 MHz auction is dependent on TV broadcaster's selling spectrum back to the government to be sold to mobile broadband companies, so if they don't sell will that leave 600 MHz DOA? Or are these TV broadcasters using different frequency? Sorry if I am way off base, I was just curious.

 

 

Gannet bought BELO, not KING-TV. KING-TV was one of the channels operated by BELO.

 

Only some stations are broadcasting in the 600Mhz band. Channels range from ~470 to ~750Mhz. However, stations have a lot invested in their transmitting equipment, and for the stations that do broadcast in the 600Mhz band, there isn't really anywhere else for them to go, especially in larger markets. It's going to be a tough sell to get them to move.

Good thing TMO and Sprint have enough spectrum in metro areas. It's rural where its most valuable to them.

 

Though after seeing how long Verizon milked its 10x10, more urban wouldn't be bad either.

[Dkoellerwx]

Good thing TMO and Sprint have enough spectrum in metro areas. It's rural where its most valuable to them.

 

Though after seeing how long Verizon milked its 10x10, more urban wouldn't be bad either.

 

I agree it would be valuable in rural areas, however that's also the same exact places that you'd be running into stations not willing to give up their spectrum. 

[4ktvs]

TMO really needs to at lest get nation wide 5x5 if not 10x10. Sprint I don't think should bid on it unless they can do 10x10 or make quad band LTE phones with out much issue.  

 

AT&T may need some of it due to only having 5x5 700 in a lot of places. (That was of there own doing of course, but the past is the past.) 

 

Verizon really needs to put down any thing it can to up there speeds in some market's, it getting really bad in some places. They may bid on it too.

 

In short every one could use it, but I think most agree T-mobile needs it the most.

[ericdabbs]

TMO really needs to at lest get nation wide 5x5 if not 10x10. Sprint I don't think should bid on it unless they can do 10x10 or make quad band LTE phones with out much issue.  

 

AT&T may need some of it due to only having 5x5 700 in a lot of places. (That was of there own doing of course, but the past is the past.) 

 

Verizon really needs to put down any thing it can to up there speeds in some market's, it getting really bad in some places. They may bid on it too.

 

In short every one could use it, but I think most agree T-mobile needs it the most.

 

I think all 4 of the major carriers will bid on the 600 MHz spectrum.  Sprint should bid on 600 MHz and depending on the availability Sprint should try to capture 20 MHz of the spectrum to form a 10x10 LTE carrier.  I am not too afraid of making quad band phones since eventually every carrier will have multiple LTE band support.  The bigger concern is getting new tower equipment (antennas and RRUs) to support these bands and deployment.  Eventually Sprint will need to add more panels for each sector which is why most NV cell sites currently only have 1 panel per sector to leave room for expansion.

[supert0nes]

 

Verizon really needs to put down any thing it can to up there speeds in some market's, it getting really bad in some places. They may bid on it too.

 

That's what their large AWS holdings are for.  Let's let them deploy that first.

[milan03]

That's what their large AWS holdings are for.  Let's let them deploy that first.

Exactly. On a side note I've been manually scanning on my Band 4 capable LTE devices, but have yet to see them broadcasting here in NYC... Wish I had that Spectrum Analyzer... AJ!!!

[SuperFrog44]

Just a thought.

 

Assuming more 600 spectrum does get auctioned. What would be the chances of Sprint buying say a large national chunk of 600 and flipping it to say VZ for 850? Would make sense for both parties as Sprint should have the head units in place and VZ could get out of a spectrum band. Also assuming VZ bought say 10mhz of 600 or something. 

 

[Boosted20V]

Just a thought.

 

Assuming more 600 spectrum does get auctioned. What would be the chances of Sprint buying say a large national chunk of 600 and flipping it to say VZ for 850? Would make sense for both parties as Sprint should have the head units in place and VZ could get out of a spectrum band. Also assuming VZ bought say 10mhz of 600 or something. 

 

I'd say not a chance in hell. I don't think VZ wants to get "rid" of its Cellular spectrum.

[maximus1987/lou99]

 

 

 

Verizon really needs to put down any thing it can to up there speeds in some market's, it getting really bad in some places. They may bid on it too.

 

 

That's what their large AWS holdings are for. Let's let them deploy that first.

I'm sure Verizon agrees with you 100%

[maximus1987/lou99]

 

 

Just a thought.

 

Assuming more 600 spectrum does get auctioned. What would be the chances of Sprint buying say a large national chunk of 600 and flipping it to say VZ for 850? Would make sense for both parties as Sprint should have the head units in place and VZ could get out of a spectrum band. Also assuming VZ bought say 10mhz of 600 or something. 

 

 

I'd say not a chance in hell. I don't think VZ wants to get "rid" of its Cellular spectrum.

Agree. The iphone 5 and probably other phones have LTE Band 5 - cellular 850 - support. Once their CDMA traffic drops enough, they can repurpose some for LTE and activate it with a carrier update.

[maximus1987/lou99]

 

 

TMO really needs to at lest get nation wide 5x5 if not 10x10. Sprint I don't think should bid on it unless they can do 10x10 or make quad band LTE phones with out much issue.

 

AT&T may need some of it due to only having 5x5 700 in a lot of places. (That was of there own doing of course, but the past is the past.)

 

Verizon really needs to put down any thing it can to up there speeds in some market's, it getting really bad in some places. They may bid on it too.

 

In short every one could use it, but I think most agree T-mobile needs it the most.

 

 

I think all 4 of the major carriers will bid on the 600 MHz spectrum. Sprint should bid on 600 MHz and depending on the availability Sprint should try to capture 20 MHz of the spectrum to form a 10x10 LTE carrier. I am not too afraid of making quad band phones since eventually every carrier will have multiple LTE band support. The bigger concern is getting new tower equipment (antennas and RRUs) to support these bands and deployment. Eventually Sprint will need to add more panels for each sector which is why most NV cell sites currently only have 1 panel per sector to leave room for expansion.

SoftBank does not want to sink large $$$ into 600 MHz. They'll get primarily 5x5 for urban penetration and secondarily for rural propagation and, like a mod said, shift ALL data to 600 MHz and use SMR 800 for voice forever. They don't have the full 7x7 MHz nationwide.

 

It's Verizon and ATT who have the large number but low population density of rural customers who "need" large amounts of 600 MHz.

 

Sprint's differentiator will be 2.5 GHz. That's mostly where Softbank wants to send the $5bil it gave Sprint.

[ericdabbs]

SoftBank does not want to sink large $$$ into 600 MHz. They'll get primarily 5x5 for urban penetration and secondarily for rural propagation and, like a mod said, shift ALL data to 600 MHz and use SMR 800 for voice forever. They don't have the full 7x7 MHz nationwide.

 

It's Verizon and ATT who have the large number but low population density of rural customers who "need" large amounts of 600 MHz.

 

Sprint's differentiator will be 2.5 GHz. That's mostly where Softbank wants to send the $5bil it gave Sprint.

 

I don't believe that decision has been made yet about 600 MHz since we don't know much about how much 600 MHz spectrum will be available.  Its still far too early to assume Sprint will not participate in a 600 MHz auction.  Both Sprint and Tmobile probably regret not participating in the 700 MHz auction and don't want to make the same mistake this time which is why they have been active in trying to persuade the FCC about rules for spectrum limits on big 2 purchase and band placements for the 600 MHz auction.

 

The entire 5 billion will be used for the Network Vision project in some way but I don't believe you can assume its only for 2.5 GHz development.  Sprint and Softbank need to work together to determine what is appropriate to stay competitive in this market and for both Sprint and Tmobile they lack the low band spectrum.  We have cities near the Canadian and Mexican border and southeast part of US that can't take advantage of part or the entire 800 MHz spectrum so low band spectrum is still needed there for coverage indoors in those areas.  2.5 GHz won't solve that problem entirely especially if its going to be deployed in islands or a larger scale.  There is also the question about whether 2.5 GHz will be expanded and deployed on all major markets not in the Wimax footprint.

[maximus1987/lou99]

I don't believe that decision has been made yet about 600 MHz since we don't know much about how much 600 MHz spectrum will be available.  Its still far too early to assume Sprint will not participate in a 600 MHz auction.  

 

I never said that Sprint would not be bidding at all, just that it would bid for 5x5 and nothing more.

 

 

 

The entire 5 billion will be used for the Network Vision project in some way but I don't believe you can assume its only for 2.5 GHz development.  

 

I said "mostly".

 

 

 

  There is also the question about whether 2.5 GHz will be expanded and deployed on all major markets not in the Wimax footprint.

 

That's not even up for discussion: Sprint will deploy 2.5 GHz everywhere.

They have no other differentiator besides large allowance of data and they're not gonna have the spectrum to maintain the high data allowance without 2.5GHz.

 

When Son was interviewed after announcing first offer for Sprint, he was evasive about what exactly he was gonna do with Sprint. One can only assume that he's gonna use the 2.5GHz advantage to his fullest advantage.

 

That's his only card to play.

 

 

[WiWavelength]

Both Sprint and Tmobile probably regret not participating in the 700 MHz auction...

 

I doubt the regret is very strong.  There simply were not that many licenses of interest to go around.  VZW and AT&T would not have allowed Sprint and T-Mobile to win much of anything in the Lower 700 MHz B block and Upper 700 MHz C block.  So, other than the Lower 700 MHz A block, which has been a disaster, Sprint and T-Mobile would have wasted their time and money to come away with a few crumbs of spectrum.

 

AJ

[mozamcrew]

That's not even up for discussion: Sprint will deploy 2.5 GHz everywhere.

They have no other differentiator besides large allowance of data and they're not gonna have the spectrum to maintain the high data allowance without 2.5GHz.

 

When Son was interviewed after announcing first offer for Sprint, he was evasive about what exactly he was gonna do with Sprint. One can only assume that he's gonna use the 2.5GHz advantage to his fullest advantage.

 

That's his only card to play.

 

 

 

 

I don't think they will deploy 2.5Ghz everywhere, maybe 80% of sites by 2020. They won't bother deploying it on those rural/exburban sites where they aren't even using all of their alloted PCS spectrum. Why spend the money to add the 2.5 antenna and RRU if you if you could simply add capacity by adding another PCS LTE carrier first?

If I were rolling it out, I'd be installing it in cities where some of my cell sites are spectrum constrained (already using nearly all of their spectrum in some places), simply because it's a way to add capacity without adding additional cell sites.

[Rawvega]

Agree. The iphone 5 and probably other phones have LTE Band 5 - cellular 850 - support. Once their CDMA traffic drops enough, they can repurpose some for LTE and activate it with a carrier update.

 

I highly doubt that the iPhone 5 and any other current generation handset will ever get a carrier update to support Band 5 LTE from VZW.

[maximus1987/lou99]

 

 

Agree. The iphone 5 and probably other phones have LTE Band 5 - cellular 850 - support. Once their CDMA traffic drops enough, they can repurpose some for LTE and activate it with a carrier update.

 

 

I highly doubt that the iPhone 5 and any other current generation handset will ever get a carrier update to support Band 5 LTE from VZW.

Why? That makes no sense.

Also, iphone 5 supports PCS LTE which iphone also supports.

[Rawvega]

Why? That makes no sense.

 

It makes plenty of sense. VZW isn't even talking about re-farming cellular for LTE at this point. They're starting to deploy LTE on AWS. They've mentioned starting to re-farm PCS in 2015. Any re-farm of cellular for LTE likely start until 2017 or later and you think it makes business sense for VZW to go back and update a phone that was released in 2012  ? Umm no, they want for you to buy a new device and be locked into another contract. How many people would still be using an iPhone 5 in 4+ years anyway?? 

 

 

Also, iphone 5 supports PCS LTE which iphone also supports.

 

 

 

Okay, now that makes no sense.

[deflate7525]

 How many people would still be using an iPhone 5 in 4+ years anyway?? 

 

 

I'm sure a lot of people will jump for it once it's "free" with a new 2 year contract.

[maximus1987/lou99]

 

Why? That makes no sense.

 

 

It makes plenty of sense. VZW isn't even talking about re-farming cellular for LTE at this point. They're starting to deploy LTE on AWS. They've mentioned starting to re-farm PCS in 2015. Any re-farm of cellular for LTE likely start until 2017 or later and you think it makes business sense for VZW to go back and update a phone that was released in 2012 ? Umm no, they want for you to buy a new device and be locked into another contract. How many people would still be using an iPhone 5 in 4+ years anyway??

 

 

 

 

Also, iphone 5 supports PCS LTE which iphone also supports.

 

 

 

Okay, now that makes no sense.

 

You make it sound as if by NOT updating the iphone 5 to allow Band 5 LTE, Verizon is somehow using the stick to force those people to get into a new two year contract.

I don't see it.

"Your phone is capable of Band 5 LTE but we're not gonna enable it unless you sign a two year contract" - you think that's gonna work on the non-s4gru reader?

 

Verizon is hurting no one but itself by not doing everything it can to lessen the load on Band 13. So yes, it would make business sense to enable as many bands as it supports.

 

And you didn't mention the PCS band: Band 25.

It's also supported on VZW iphone 5.

Are they not going to enable that one either?

 

I agree with the above post on how many people will have iphone 5 in 2017.

In Verizon's recent quarterly results, an astounding number of iphone 4 and iPhone 4S were sold and they don't even have LTE!

Imagine what the mix is gonna be when the LTE iphone 5 will be "free" in 2014. There's gonna be a bunch of them in 2015 and possible 2017. Why wouldn't Verizon enable PCS and Band 5 LTE?

[Rawvega]

 

You make it sound as if by NOT updating the iphone 5 to allow Band 5 LTE, Verizon is somehow using the stick to force those people to get into a new two year contract.

I don't see it.

"Your phone is capable of Band 5 LTE but we're not gonna enable it unless you sign a two year contract" - you think that's gonna work on the non-s4gru reader?

Yes, yes it is. How many non-techie subscribers even know what Band 5 is? Hint: The non-techies are the majority of the population.

And you didn't mention the PCS band: Band 25.

It's also supported on VZW iphone 5.

Are they not going to enable that one either?

 

I didn't mention that because you weren't clear in what you were trying to convey. While still not a slam dunk, I'd give it better odds since VZW is at least discussing re-farming PCS at this juncture unlike cellular.

I agree with the above post on how many people will have iphone 5 in 2017.

In Verizon's recent quarterly results, an astounding number of iphone 4 and iPhone 4S were sold and they don't even have LTE!

Imagine what the mix is gonna be when the LTE iphone 5 will be "free" in 2014. There's gonna be a bunch of them in 2015 and possible 2017. Why wouldn't Verizon enable PCS and Band 5 LTE?

 

Already asked and answered. Believe whatever you like. In parting, consider this though: It's 2013; how many four year old handsets (released in 2009 such as the original Moto Droid) is VZW still actively updating?

[maximus1987/lou99]

Yes, yes it is. How many non-techie subscribers even know what Band 5 is? Hint: The non-techies are the majority of the population.

 

 

I didn't mention that because you weren't clear in what you were trying to convey. While still not a slam dunk, I'd give it better odds since VZW is at least discussing re-farming PCS at this juncture unlike cellular.

 

 

Already asked and answered. Believe whatever you like. In parting, consider this though: It's 2013; how many four year old handsets (released in 2009 such as the original Moto Droid) is VZW still actively updating?

We're not talking about an Android update but the carrier profile file that tells the phone which LTE bands it uses like an INI file or XML.

 

Most people wouldn't even know it happened but Verizon certainly would: the load on each band would be balanced.

[Nickel]

We're not talking about an Android update but the carrier profile file that tells the phone which LTE bands it uses like an INI file or XML.

 

Most people wouldn't even know it happened but Verizon certainly would: the load on each band would be balanced.

No, they wouldn't notice the load because how many of them would still be using a what, almost 5 year old phone. How many people on sprint do you think are using a BlackBerry 8330? People definitely use phones past the two year mark, but this is ridiculous.

[maximus1987/lou99]

No, they wouldn't notice the load because how many of them would still be using a what, almost 5 year old phone. How many people on sprint do you think are using a BlackBerry 8330? People definitely use phones past the two year mark, but this is ridiculous.

In one year, iphone 5 will be free on contract and many people TODAY get the iphone 4 because it's free on contract.

 

So I think there'll be plenty of people using the iphone 5 3 years after they buy it in 2014.

 

That's not the point. It's trivial to send out an update to say "you can also use Band 5".

 

[Nickel]

In one year, iphone 5 will be free on contract and many people TODAY get the iphone 4 because it's free on contract.

 

So I think there'll be plenty of people using the iphone 5 3 years after they buy it in 2014.

 

That's not the point. It's trivial to send out an update to say "you can also use Band 5".

They want you to buy NEW phones, not use the same one forever. What's the best way to do that? Stop supplying updates to old hardware.