T-Mobile LTE & Network Discussion V2

[dnicekid]

Tmo added 10 mil over the last few years?

How do vzw and att handle it with 2xs amount of people?

I am sure Tmo will fix it somehow it's not like we didn't see it coming. Adding second carrier cards maybe?

[reedacus25]

Tmo added 10 mil over the last few years?

How do vzw and att handle it with 2xs amount of people?

I am sure Tmo will fix it somehow it's not like we didn't see it coming. Adding second carrier cards maybe?

 

By having vast amounts of spectrum, and generally more dense networks than Sprint and T-Mobile.

 

For example, its not uncommon for T-Mobile to have 10-20 MHz of deployed spectrum for UMTS, as well as 20-50 MHz deployed spectrum for LTE. ATT will typically have 30-70 MHz of deployed LTE, and likely 20-40 MHz of UMTS deployed, coupled with a denser grid of macros.

[Overstew]

By having vast amounts of spectrum, and generally more dense networks than Sprint and T-Mobile.

 

For example, its not uncommon for T-Mobile to have 10-20 MHz of deployed spectrum for UMTS, as well as 20-50 MHz deployed spectrum for LTE. ATT will typically have 30-70 MHz of deployed LTE, and likely 20-40 MHz of UMTS deployed, coupled with a denser grid of macros.

The duopoly didn't have unlimited data until recently. An unlimited data user uses far more than people on shared data plans. That is mainly how they are able to manage the capacity and also their 10x10 low band networks help tremendously as well.

[tyroned3222]

The duopoly didn't have unlimited data until recently. An unlimited data user uses far more than people on shared data plans. That is mainly how they are able to manage the capacity and also their 10x10 low band networks help tremendously as well.

Also, t mobile is starting to dominate markets.. so, there are a lot more customers using and abusing the network (in some cases). Would like to see how fast t mobile can fix the congestion issue. It sure isn't going to be by a flip of a switch.

 

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[tyroned3222]

Tmo added 10 mil over the last few years?

How do vzw and att handle it with 2xs amount of people?

I am sure Tmo will fix it somehow it's not like we didn't see it coming. Adding second carrier cards maybe?

I think so too, but the customer adds are happening faster then the network adds. So, i wonder if t mobiles engineers can work there magic this time around.

 

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[tyroned3222]

Tmo added 10 mil over the last few years?

How do vzw and att handle it with 2xs amount of people?

I am sure Tmo will fix it somehow it's not like we didn't see it coming. Adding second carrier cards maybe?

T mobile is set to gain another 960 thousand net adds in Q1 which is a slow quarter for most businesses.

 

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[gusherb]

T-Mobile is way oversold in pretty much the whole Chicago area where they're running 30Mhz B4 LTE. Compare that to Verizon whose running 60 MHz across the whole area, AT&T which is running anywhere between 40-80 MHz depending on the tower and area (and that will bump up to 50-90 MHz at some point), and Sprint is also operating 50-80 MHz of LTE. So that puts T-Mobile at pretty much half the deployed LTE spectrum as everyone else. The only spectrum they can refarm in the short term is another 20 MHz from their PCS holdings if they shut down GSM, and take out one of the two HSPA channels.

[Arysyn]

T-Mobile is way oversold in pretty much the whole Chicago area where they're running 30Mhz B4 LTE. Compare that to Verizon whose running 60 MHz across the whole area, AT&T which is running anywhere between 40-80 MHz depending on the tower and area (and that will bump up to 50-90 MHz at some point), and Sprint is also operating 50-80 MHz of LTE. So that puts T-Mobile at pretty much half the deployed LTE spectrum as everyone else. The only spectrum they can refarm in the short term is another 20 MHz from their PCS holdings if they shut down GSM, and take out one of the two HSPA channels.

 

Great post, gusherb!

 

The only thing I see as a difference between T-Mobile and Verizon/AT&T, is that the duopoly also has many more customers than T-Mobile, hence the need for the additional spectrum they have, in contrast to the amount of spectrum T-Mobile has. However, that particular issue regarding subscriber numbers is very minor, unless it could be shown that AT&T/Verizon have much more customers in the Chicago market alone. However, when it comes down to it, you are absolutely right nonetheless. The spectrum amount T-Mobile has here in the Chicago market is really bad considering all of the variables involved, though particularly as the number of customers T-Mobile is gaining is putting an even tighter squeeze on the congestion being caused by T-Mobile's limited spectrum around here.

 

I'm so bold about this, I even think the amount of spectrum they have right now currently in the Chicago area isn't good enough for the amount of customers they had a few years ago. Even though the extra 5x5 put on the AWS band for LTE last year has helped, it isn't a big enough help for the growth they are adding. I remember just how bad 10x10 AWS LTE was prior to that, yet 10x10 while not a great amount of spectrum  in itself, isn't horribly bad in many cases. However, it certainly was here in the Chicago market for T-Mobile and the additional 5x5 of AWS spectrum dedicated to LTE away from HSPA was crucially essential. Now that T-Mobile has added so many more customers since then though, the 15x15 is beginning to be more like how 10x10 was here prior to the upgrade. The fact T-Mobile has such little other spectrum here just makes the situation so much worse.

 

Personally, I don't know how T-Mobile got 20x20 AWS in so many other smaller, even some much smaller markets than Chicago, yet only has 15x15 here. They need 20x20 here, and badly so, though realistically I don't know how that would even be possible nowadays, considering how, in my opinion, how messed up spectrum allocation is due to the FCC's management decisions regarding it, auctions, etc. Besides 20x20 AWS spectrum, T-Mobile needs at least 10x10 of PCS at the minimum, though if it were up to me, I'd say 20x20 of PCS and 10x10 low-band spectrum, equaling 100mhz. Sprint has 120mhz of band 41 alone. In comparison, that is absolutely pathetic for T-Mobile to have such a massively lesser amount of spectrum compared to their nearest competitor in terms of subscriber count. Again, I'm pretty bold on the subject of spectrum, so I'll add this. In major markets the size of Chicago, Los Angeles, New York City, etc., 20x20 in either 2 mid-band arrangements, or 1 mid-band of it and 1 high-band of it (below 3ghz though - not too high) and 20x20 of low-band.

 

This already being a long post by me, I'll end this post with one other important mention and resulting situation. I believe 120mhz of spectrum ought to be the standard minimum for large markets. While I realize many people here on S4GRU are against massive data consumptions due to adding congestion to the networks, etc., which I understand because of the spectrum crunch, technology is moving towards more video consumption over wireless to where these networks really need to grow on spectrum allotments. Sprint seems to be the closest to that ideal amount of spectrum for this in the future, with AT&T and Verizon trailing behind. However, T-Mobile is so far behind with this, despite being a major promoter of data consumption. Without extra spectrum, T-Mobile, particularly in the Chicago market, is going to have a really difficult time maintaining their status as the unlimited data carrier that actively promotes doing this regularly. Something has got to change, but it being with the FCC is quite unlikely. This is why I see T-Mobile really needing either Dish or Sprint at this point, perhaps even AT&T. So to close this off, a merger really becomes more of a necessity when considering these issues. Without one, T-Mobile is in trouble.

[tyroned3222]

Great post, gusherb!

 

The only thing I see as a difference between T-Mobile and Verizon/AT&T, is that the duopoly also has many more customers than T-Mobile, hence the need for the additional spectrum they have, in contrast to the amount of spectrum T-Mobile has. However, that particular issue regarding subscriber numbers is very minor, unless it could be shown that AT&T/Verizon have much more customers in the Chicago market alone. However, when it comes down to it, you are absolutely right nonetheless. The spectrum amount T-Mobile has here in the Chicago market is really bad considering all of the variables involved, though particularly as the number of customers T-Mobile is gaining is putting an even tighter squeeze on the congestion being caused by T-Mobile's limited spectrum around here.

 

I'm so bold about this, I even think the amount of spectrum they have right now currently in the Chicago area isn't good enough for the amount of customers they had a few years ago. Even though the extra 5x5 put on the AWS band for LTE last year has helped, it isn't a big enough help for the growth they are adding. I remember just how bad 10x10 AWS LTE was prior to that, yet 10x10 while not a great amount of spectrum in itself, isn't horribly bad in many cases. However, it certainly was here in the Chicago market for T-Mobile and the additional 5x5 of AWS spectrum dedicated to LTE away from HSPA was crucially essential. Now that T-Mobile has added so many more customers since then though, the 15x15 is beginning to be more like how 10x10 was here prior to the upgrade. The fact T-Mobile has such little other spectrum here just makes the situation so much worse.

 

Personally, I don't know how T-Mobile got 20x20 AWS in so many other smaller, even some much smaller markets than Chicago, yet only has 15x15 here. They need 20x20 here, and badly so, though realistically I don't know how that would even be possible nowadays, considering how, in my opinion, how messed up spectrum allocation is due to the FCC's management decisions regarding it, auctions, etc. Besides 20x20 AWS spectrum, T-Mobile needs at least 10x10 of PCS at the minimum, though if it were up to me, I'd say 20x20 of PCS and 10x10 low-band spectrum, equaling 100mhz. Sprint has 120mhz of band 41 alone. In comparison, that is absolutely pathetic for T-Mobile to have such a massively lesser amount of spectrum compared to their nearest competitor in terms of subscriber count. Again, I'm pretty bold on the subject of spectrum, so I'll add this. In major markets the size of Chicago, Los Angeles, New York City, etc., 20x20 in either 2 mid-band arrangements, or 1 mid-band of it and 1 high-band of it (below 3ghz though - not too high) and 20x20 of low-band.

 

This already being a long post by me, I'll end this post with one other important mention and resulting situation. I believe 120mhz of spectrum ought to be the standard minimum for large markets. While I realize many people here on S4GRU are against massive data consumptions due to adding congestion to the networks, etc., which I understand because of the spectrum crunch, technology is moving towards more video consumption over wireless to where these networks really need to grow on spectrum allotments. Sprint seems to be the closest to that ideal amount of spectrum for this in the future, with AT&T and Verizon trailing behind. However, T-Mobile is so far behind with this, despite being a major promoter of data consumption. Without extra spectrum, T-Mobile, particularly in the Chicago market, is going to have a really difficult time maintaining their status as the unlimited data carrier that actively promotes doing this regularly. Something has got to change, but it being with the FCC is quite unlikely. This is why I see T-Mobile really needing either Dish or Sprint at this point, perhaps even AT&T. So to close this off, a merger really becomes more of a necessity when considering these issues. Without one, T-Mobile is in trouble.

Great post ! T mobile is in a bit trouble in Chicago. Going from 15×15 to 20×20 mhz will happen soon! The bandwith will increase by about 30 % but in real world usage more like 10 to 15%. The only thing that will save t mobile in Chicago is carrier aggregation between b4 and b2 since they don't own b12. They will have to densify super dense very very dense to offer a great experince... it's supposed to start in spring. Until they can can bring 600 mhz to Chicago.

 

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[tyroned3222]

T-Mobile is way oversold in pretty much the whole Chicago area where they're running 30Mhz B4 LTE. Compare that to Verizon whose running 60 MHz across the whole area, AT&T which is running anywhere between 40-80 MHz depending on the tower and area (and that will bump up to 50-90 MHz at some point), and Sprint is also operating 50-80 MHz of LTE. So that puts T-Mobile at pretty much half the deployed LTE spectrum as everyone else. The only spectrum they can refarm in the short term is another 20 MHz from their PCS holdings if they shut down GSM, and take out one of the two HSPA channels.

T mobile might not be a good choice in Chicago... all the other carriers operate way more spectrum as you already discussed. This won't be an overnight fix for tmobile this will take time!.. if its binge on or abusing the unlimited plan, congestion is a big issues on the network going foward.. its a real thing and it's happening in market after market.. customer growth is outweighing network adds.

 

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[S4GRU]

Holy GMO, Batman! I just found this on a B2 GMO site in Mason County, Washington. The signal does not travel far, but is screaming fast. I think this is the first time I've found a 10x10 site with 2x MIMO that is a "true" GMO...on any carrier.

 

 

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[tyroned3222]

Holy GMO, Batman! I just found this on a B2 GMO site in Mason County, Washington. The signal does not travel far, but is screaming fast. I think this is the first time I've found a 10x10 site with 2x MIMO that is a "true" GMO...on any carrier.

 

 

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Wow! that's impressive!

 

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[reedacus25]

Holy GMO, Batman! I just found this on a B2 GMO site in Mason County, Washington. The signal does not travel far, but is screaming fast. I think this is the first time I've found a 10x10 site with 2x MIMO that is a "true" GMO...on any carrier.

 

 

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Sad that lots of those L1900 sites are SISO that you've come across. Around these parts they are certainly the exception, not the rule, thankfully. And it also helps that most of those sites are in very off the beaten path locations, so often unburdened as well.

 

Also love the random 10 MHz pockets in some parts. Makes me jealous to see it go so underutilized.

 

 

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[gusherb]

Great post, gusherb!

 

 

Personally, I don't know how T-Mobile got 20x20 AWS in so many other smaller, even some much smaller markets than Chicago, yet only has 15x15 here. They need 20x20 here, and badly so, though realistically I don't know how that would even be possible nowadays, considering how, in my opinion, how messed up spectrum allocation is due to the FCC's management decisions regarding it, auctions, etc. Besides 20x20 AWS spectrum, T-Mobile needs at least 10x10 of PCS at the minimum, though if it were up to me, I'd say 20x20 of PCS and 10x10 low-band spectrum, equaling 100mhz. Sprint has 120mhz of band 41 alone. In comparison, that is absolutely pathetic for T-Mobile to have such a massively lesser amount of spectrum compared to their nearest competitor in terms of subscriber count. Again, I'm pretty bold on the subject of spectrum, so I'll add this. In major markets the size of Chicago, Los Angeles, New York City, etc., 20x20 in either 2 mid-band arrangements, or 1 mid-band of it and 1 high-band of it (below 3ghz though - not too high) and 20x20 of low-band.

 

 

The one ironic thing in this market is that the two counties where T-Mobile never once had a congestion issue and has had an exceptionally dense network for years, they own an extra band 4 license courtesy of the AT&T buyout failure. Which wasn't contiguous with their current holdings until just this fall when AT&T so graciously swapped licenses with them in those two counties in order to make it a contiguous 20x20 block of band 4. AT&T had nothing to gain by that as they only own one 10 MHz block of band 4 in Lake and Porter counties.

 

T mobile might not be a good choice in Chicago... all the other carriers operate way more spectrum as you already discussed. This won't be an overnight fix for tmobile this will take time!.. if its binge on or abusing the unlimited plan, congestion is a big issues on the network going foward.. its a real thing and it's happening in market after market.. customer growth is outweighing network adds.

 

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I feel that a merger with Sprint will be the long term "solution" to this. Meanwhile they just hold out and efficiently muster up what they can with what little they have or can acquire without too much trouble, to prevent an undoing of all their marketing effort over the last 3 years.

 

 

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[tyroned3222]

The one ironic thing in this market is that the two counties where T-Mobile never once had a congestion issue and has had an exceptionally dense network for years, they own an extra band 4 license courtesy of the AT&T buyout failure. Which wasn't contiguous with their current holdings until just this fall when AT&T so graciously swapped licenses with them in those two counties in order to make it a contiguous 20x20 block of band 4. AT&T had nothing to gain by that as they only own one 10 MHz block of band 4 in Lake and Porter counties.

 

I feel that a merger with Sprint will be the long term "solution" to this. Meanwhile they just hold out and efficiently muster up what they can with what little they have or can acquire without too much trouble, to prevent an undoing of all their marketing effort over the last 3 years.

 

 

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Merger would be great! If we are talking long term, i think t mobile will be fine. Just in the short term can they keep there churn low with the congestion.. eventually, tmobile will be able to aggregate b12,b4,and b2. Also, with small cells and split sectors that will hold them over until they can make use of the 600 mhz spectrum. I think in the future they will also be able to acquire more spectrum ( higher frequency). With john hinting at more uncarrier moves to come, there growth will continue. Between now and 2020. T-Mobiles growth could be tremendous! Which will allow for a lot more funding for the network.

 

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[red_dog007]

In regards to Chicago, at least 20 of the 30MHz Dish won will go up for auction again.  Hopefully TMo can at least do some long term planning in acquiring healthy portions of AWS3 and 600MHz.  At least 40Mhz. 

 

If they can get Leap's 700A this year and refarm 20MHz of PCS, get that LTE capacity doubled stat!  

 

At the least I'd think that a market like Chicago would be top priority for PCS for LTE refarm.

[Fraydog]

In regards to Chicago, at least 20 of the 30MHz Dish won will go up for auction again. Hopefully TMo can at least do some long term planning in acquiring healthy portions of AWS3 and 600MHz. At least 40Mhz.

 

If they can get Leap's 700A this year and refarm 20MHz of PCS, get that LTE capacity doubled stat!

 

At the least I'd think that a market like Chicago would be top priority for PCS for LTE refarm.

Is there any time frame we know of as to when the AWS-3 Dish forfeited would go back up for auction?

 

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[red_dog007]

I've heard 2017 sometime.

[derrph]

Well YouTube is now apart of BingeOn

 

http://www.tmonews.com/2016/03/t-mobile-binge-on-adds-youtube-and-more-as-some-changes-are-made-for-video-providers/

 

Since YouTube is one of the major players that is now in this program and had the majority of other video services. I can see T-Mobile just getting rid of the truly unlimited option.

 

 

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[EvanA]

Well YouTube is now apart of BingeOn

 

http://www.tmonews.com/2016/03/t-mobile-binge-on-adds-youtube-and-more-as-some-changes-are-made-for-video-providers/

 

 

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Providers are now able to opt out of having their video streams "optimized" (read: throttled).

 

New Options for Video Providers

Today, T-Mobile announced yet another update and new options for video providers giving them more choice over how Binge On’s video optimization applies to their content. Now video providers can choose to have their content stream at native resolutions – including Ultra HD and beyond – without Binge On’s mobile optimization, using up customers’ high-speed data faster.

https://newsroom.t-mobile.com/news/binge-on-amped-again.htm

 

I suspect Google pressured T-Mobile into making this change since YouTube is managing the streaming quality according to what Legere said in his Twitter video announcement. https://twitter.com/JohnLegere/status/710461264061829120

[Fraydog]

Good on the FCC's part if that is what brought this change to the table.

 

It is going to be interesting to see what technical changes are going to come about to BingeOn.

 

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[red_dog007]

All those services part of BingeOn go to 720/1080p in 3... 2... 1... 

 

 

lol

[Fraydog]

All those services part of BingeOn go to 720/1080p in 3... 2... 1...

 

 

lol

I think it would be doable with a better compression standard like H.265 or VP9.

 

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[richy]

Fun times, flew into LAX (yuck) and lucky to get 1 mbps with a strong signal. Once away from LAX it got interesting, speed tests between 50 and 90 mbps. 20x20 lte basically everywhere which based on speed tests seems to be overkill at least once you get away from central LA and head south. I'm curious, back home we have 10x10, I'm wondering if they are holding off due to backhaul because they desperately need to transition more spectrum to lte in places like central Maui where lte crawls (sub 1mbps). No point refarming if each tower is only hooked up to a T3 or similar I guess. #SoTmobile 

 

Tmo either seems to fly or suck. I can totally see why people love them and some people hate them. You go from flawless to useless and back again in 10 miles.

[Arysyn]

Providers are now able to opt out of having their video streams "optimized" (read: throttled).

 

https://newsroom.t-mobile.com/news/binge-on-amped-again.htm

 

I suspect Google pressured T-Mobile into making this change since YouTube is managing the streaming quality according to what Legere said in his Twitter video announcement. https://twitter.com/JohnLegere/status/710461264061829120

 

I find it very sad and rather backwards now that HD video will not use up customers' data, though browsing the internet will. I suppose that means reading S4GRU, even my long posts here, suddenly will take up more data clogging T-Mobile's network than watching YouTube and Netflix!