T-Mobile LTE & Network Discussion V2

[markjcc]

The only thing left that makes any sense is back haul cost or provisioning delay.

 

With sprint not having lte for a long time when tmobile did, plus tmobiles predatory pricing spring t probably lost a lot of subs which contributes to the state of both networks. Tmo are risking losing their gains if they don't get a site or two out by hana and speed up their backhaul. There's also a dead spot by canoes beach in wahikuli which makes little sense. Let's see where they go with this, Sprint's an attractive proposition these days.

Sprint is getting better and better with more PCS holdings they've gained in Hawaii the future is promising.

 

 

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[nexgencpu]

lol what did I read? I was comparing 480p to 720p on a 5.7 inch screen. I see the difference between 480p and 1440p, that wasn't the comparison I was making. Now maybe I should book my eye exam. [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

The only reason I brought up 1440p was because it's fast becoming the standard on YouTube and I fully expect the rest to follow suite.

 

So this whole 480p being sufficient thing is frustrating to hear. I hope we don't end up with a good enough solution instead of taking advantage of tech we have been handed.

[Arysyn]

The only reason I brought up 1440p was because it's fast becoming the standard on YouTube and I fully expect the rest to follow suite.

 

So this whole 480p being sufficient thing is frustrating to hear. I hope we don't end up with a good enough solution instead of taking advantage of tech we have been handed.

 

I dislike how backwards carriers are getting with removing unlimited data plans for limited data plans at high per gb data prices. I wouldn't mind carriers removing unlimited data plans for sensible per gb data prices in the $1 per gb - $2 per gb range, but certainly not a $5 per gb - $15 per gb they are charging. Not many people could watch video at those prices, which is what I do understand about the focus of BingeOn for people, but its backwards thinking when it is being shown at 480p, instead of 720p or greater.

[Fraydog]

The only reason I brought up 1440p was because it's fast becoming the standard on YouTube and I fully expect the rest to follow suite.

 

So this whole 480p being sufficient thing is frustrating to hear. I hope we don't end up with a good enough solution instead of taking advantage of tech we have been handed.

I don't disagree, but let's go to 720p first.

 

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[nexgencpu]

Well considering that you are scaling at a perfect 3x from 854x480 to 2560x1440, I'd probably say it looks pretty decent considering a linear upscale.

 

But then again I wouldn't call something on a phone a 'reference display' either so I have a lower expectation.

 

My point is that at 480p, and even less, I can resolve all of the detail that I need, for a fraction of the bandwidth.

 

If you want the best for having the bests sake, go right ahead, but I'm not enjoying my video any less because it's not 1:1 pixel mapping.

 

 

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If your good with low res video go right ahead and enjoy that, but please do not assume that suckage is fine for the rest of us..

[Dkoellerwx]

If your good with low res video go right ahead and enjoy that, but please do not assume that suckage is fine for the rest of us..

 

You're* picking a fight where there isn't one. At no point has anyone said that everyone should be forced to 480p, nor that everyone should be fine with 480p. 

[Fraydog]

You're* picking a fight where there isn't one. At no point has anyone said that everyone should be forced to 480p, nor that everyone should be fine with 480p.

At risk of sounding like a T-Mobile fanboy while I am certainly not, if you are a T-Mobile customer, and you don't want BingeOn, you can now send in a short code or log into your account to turn it off. Simple as that.

 

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[richy]

If your good with low res video go right ahead and enjoy that, but please do not assume that suckage is fine for the rest of us..

How are you being forced to use it? 

[nexgencpu]

You're* picking a fight where there isn't one. At no point has anyone said that everyone should be forced to 480p, nor that everyone should be fine with 480p. 

This is where your misunderstanding my point, Its the same situation in the audio field. In order to get high fidelity audio your limited to either Tidal (horrible app with many many missing features) or go and buy a CD (are they still around!?) because the industry deemed 320kps "good enough"

 

This is a scary proposition, a company like Tmobile has a lot of influence on millennials. Repeating 480p is good enough, enough times and it becomes the reality for many.

 

Just as a side note: My intention was never to start an argument or offend anyone (apologies if it has) but I am extremely passionate about audio/video and would hate for video to take the same ugly turn the music industry has taken.

[reedacus25]

If your good with low res video go right ahead and enjoy that, but please do not assume that suckage is fine for the rest of us..

"Settling" isn't in human nature.

 

If I can go to a restaurant and have Kobe beef for hamburgers, regardless of price, but knowing that I can't taste the difference, might not eat all of it, and more importantly, they have a very limited number of those patties, most people are going to say "hell yeah I want the good stuff." Same for a "nice" bottle of wine, if you can't taste the difference.

 

If I can have a Visa Signature or World Elite MasterCard variant of my credit card, even though I may never use those features, and it's going to cause my merchants to pay a higher transaction rate, I'm going to want the "better" version.

 

Verizon has their marketing slogan currently set to "never settle" to play on that.

 

The same logic applies to the "videophile" user base. If I can have a perfectly color corrected reference display with reference level source quality, why wouldn't you?

 

But with mobile video, and data as a whole, you are sharing the resources with everyone, and there is finite capacity. Sure, you pay for your unlimited or X amount of data that you pay for, you want to use it however you see fit. Great.

 

But some people can see it as driving a Hummer for the hell of it. Nothing wrong with Hummers, but they are poorly efficient, take up too much space in parking lots, etc. It looks nice.

 

So if I don't need the Hummer, and a Camry does just fine, why add those carbon emissions and burn up that gas and take up all that space in the parking lot?

 

If I don't actively need 1440p video on my phone, and I can gather just as much information and experience from lesser quality video, why use those network resources unnecessarily? Why not be a good neighbor? Why not use something that I know fits in the overhead of my link budget and will never need to buffer compared to a higher quality/bandwidth/resolution stream.

 

My whole point is that we as people thrive for excess that we don't need, video quality not withstanding. I'm not saying we should watch Braille, but there is absolutely a point of diminishing returns when it comes to a screen that fits in your pocket. Are my analogies perfect? No. Am I attacking you? Not my intention. But if you can be less resource intensive with virtually no perceivable penalty for most people, it creates a better environment for everyone.

[WiWavelength]

Calm down, everyone.  Otherwise, S4GRU staff will intervene in this thread.

 

Nobody gives a shit if you can or cannot tell the difference between 480p, 720p, 1080p, etc.  Smartphone screens have increased in size and resolution greatly -- but they still are very small in the grand scheme of things.  And they are not meant to replace your HDTV.  Moreover, most video quality differences at the mobile level are due to compression bit rates, not resolution.  The video providers just tend to scale their compression bit rates with resolution -- though that does not have to be so.

 

The real issue is Net Neutrality.  T-Mobile BingeOn is an absolute affront to Net Neutrality.  Debate that.

 

AJ

[nexgencpu]

The real issue is Net Neutrality.  T-Mobile BingeOn is an absolute affront to Net Neutrality.  Debate that.

 

AJ

...and we have come full circle, T-mobile (or any other carrier) should not get to decide what should or shouldn't be high/low quality or data exempt.

 

The whole resolution discussion is just one of the many negative impact's "BingOn" has brought on.

[tyroned3222]

If t mobile says b12 will be here by Q3 or 4... wouldn't they already be working on it now?

 

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[travismheim]

I still don't like zero rating any type of data over another but the changes to bingeon do seem better than when it was initially launched. I would like to see Sprint offer something similar to bingeon, but without the zero rating. Sort of like an account data management tool. A family share data bucket would last a lot longer by keeping video streams in check.

 

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[gusherb]

...and we have come full circle, T-mobile (or any other carrier) should not get to decide what should or shouldn't be high/low quality or data exempt.

 

The whole resolution discussion is just one of the many negative impact's "BingOn" has brought on.

This is my second biggest issue with considering T-Mobile as a permanent carrier right behind their overloaded network in much of the Chicago area. I just can't support a company that is actively shitting all over Net Neutrality if I can help myself. I would much rather they scrapped everything including Music Freedom and just increase the data buckets, though that would kinda toss out all their smoke and mirrors marketing and they would lose their "differentiation" from everyone else. I guess that would make them look more like Sprint if they did such a thing.

I'm sure they could put some "cool" spin on it though, like "Simply Data" or something stupid like that.

[WiWavelength]

The whole resolution discussion is just one of the many negative impact's "BingOn" has brought on.

 

Whenever a web browser turns "BingOn," I say, "No, Microsoft." And switch the default setting back to Google.

 

AJ

[nexgencpu]

Whenever a web browser turns "BingOn," I say, "No, Microsoft." And switch the default setting back to Google.

 

AJ

LOL, frankly im surprised anyone still even remembers what Bing is.

 

Im not even gonna fix the error in hopes SEO gives bing (thats 3) that one hit it so badly needs.

[Arysyn]

Calm down, everyone.  Otherwise, S4GRU staff will intervene in this thread.

 

Nobody gives a shit if you can or cannot tell the difference between 480p, 720p, 1080p, etc.  Smartphone screens have increased in size and resolution greatly -- but they still are very small in the grand scheme of things.  And they are not meant to replace your HDTV.  Moreover, most video quality differences at the mobile level are due to compression bit rates, not resolution.  The video providers just tend to scale their compression bit rates with resolution -- though that does not have to be so.

 

The real issue is Net Neutrality.  T-Mobile BingeOn is an absolute affront to Net Neutrality.  Debate that.

 

AJ

 

Compression rates are bad too, just as the resolution issue with BingeOn, and any carrier that does these things to audio/video transmissions over wireless. People who buy flagship smartphones with HD/2K displays ought to expect their videos to appear at those resolutions. Otherwise, smartphone displays are better going back to using 480p resolution.

 

Technology is about progress, which Net Neutrality set out to defend, along with defending peoples' rights to that technological process. BingeOn certainly is in violation to both.

[Arysyn]

"Settling" isn't in human nature.

 

If I can go to a restaurant and have Kobe beef for hamburgers, regardless of price, but knowing that I can't taste the difference, might not eat all of it, and more importantly, they have a very limited number of those patties, most people are going to say "hell yeah I want the good stuff." Same for a "nice" bottle of wine, if you can't taste the difference.

 

If I can have a Visa Signature or World Elite MasterCard variant of my credit card, even though I may never use those features, and it's going to cause my merchants to pay a higher transaction rate, I'm going to want the "better" version.

 

Verizon has their marketing slogan currently set to "never settle" to play on that.

 

The same logic applies to the "videophile" user base. If I can have a perfectly color corrected reference display with reference level source quality, why wouldn't you?

 

But with mobile video, and data as a whole, you are sharing the resources with everyone, and there is finite capacity. Sure, you pay for your unlimited or X amount of data that you pay for, you want to use it however you see fit. Great.

 

But some people can see it as driving a Hummer for the hell of it. Nothing wrong with Hummers, but they are poorly efficient, take up too much space in parking lots, etc. It looks nice.

 

So if I don't need the Hummer, and a Camry does just fine, why add those carbon emissions and burn up that gas and take up all that space in the parking lot?

 

If I don't actively need 1440p video on my phone, and I can gather just as much information and experience from lesser quality video, why use those network resources unnecessarily? Why not be a good neighbor? Why not use something that I know fits in the overhead of my link budget and will never need to buffer compared to a higher quality/bandwidth/resolution stream.

 

My whole point is that we as people thrive for excess that we don't need, video quality not withstanding. I'm not saying we should watch Braille, but there is absolutely a point of diminishing returns when it comes to a screen that fits in your pocket. Are my analogies perfect? No. Am I attacking you? Not my intention. But if you can be less resource intensive with virtually no perceivable penalty for most people, it creates a better environment for everyone.

 

You make some good points here, reedacus, as you have also in your responses to me recently.

 

However, I disagree to some degree about humans settling. I think humans try not to settle when they are thinking in the individualistic mindset and are focused wholly independent on what they want to obtain. Yet, whenever social factors come into consideration, almost always do people end up settling, even if they do not like to do so, which often it is a forced settlement.

 

Now, I must really try not to go into talking about my philosophical viewpoints here, as I'm sure I'll end up writing several paragraphs here on the subject which would be really long and taking up too much space on the page. As I'm trying to write shorter posts, I'll minimize it to an analogy involving smartphones.

 

If people didn't settle, there already would be a near-perfect smartphone. Take for instance the two technically best available Android smartphones in the U.S. come the end of this March, the Samsung Galaxy S7, which has the better display of the two, and then the LG G5, which has the better audio features of the two. However, if a person wants the best technically available Android smartphone in the U.S., they will have to choose between those two, settling for different features which go beyond in other ways than in my previous example, such as waterproofing, removable battery, etc. Whichever smartphone they choose, they still are settling, even if they decide to wait for the HTC 10 to become available, they are settling by choosing to wait on a smartphone that still isn't going to be near-perfect smartphone.

 

If people would change focusing on striving for the absolute best, the state of society would be much better. Unfortunately, this is a fiscal-focused fallible society that is weakened by this. Again, I could go on in much more detail, though I'll refrain for reasons I've mentioned.

[jeffcarp]

This is where your misunderstanding my point, Its the same situation in the audio field. In order to get high fidelity audio your limited to either Tidal (horrible app with many many missing features) or go and buy a CD (are they still around!?) because the industry deemed 320kps "good enough"

 

This is a scary proposition, a company like Tmobile has a lot of influence on millennials. Repeating 480p is good enough, enough times and it becomes the reality for many.

 

Just as a side note: My intention was never to start an argument or offend anyone (apologies if it has) but I am extremely passionate about audio/video and would hate for video to take the same ugly turn the music industry has taken.

Consumers are generally smart enough to decide for themselves what is reasonable and what is not reasonable. You can't, as an admitted AV enthusiast, impose your tolerance on everyone else in terms of defining what's good/better/best/acceptable/etc.

 

I get that there is a small percentage of people that despise MP3 in any form. But the facts are that the vast majority of people couldn't care less if they are listening to a compressed stream.

 

Same goes for video. A number (resolution) means nothing to most people. All they know is if what they are looking at on the screen looks good or not.

 

There's a place for enthusiasts in every industry but part of being an enthusiast is the realization that you represent a very small minority of the consumer's interests.

[derrph]

Like we didn't see it coming. But there's really no use to have truly unlimited on T-Mobiles network. I think it's more so about network management. The infant stages of getting users off the TU plans.

 

http://www.tmonews.com/2016/03/t-mobile-plans-to-pivot-away-from-unlimited-data-says-cfo-braxton-carter/

 

 

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[Arysyn]

Like we didn't see it coming. But there's really no use to have truly unlimited on T-Mobiles network. I think it's more so about network management. The infant stages of getting users off the TU plans.

 

http://www.tmonews.com/2016/03/t-mobile-plans-to-pivot-away-from-unlimited-data-says-cfo-braxton-carter/

 

 

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I thought about posting that link here too, but I was too upset about it.

 

I share nexgencpu's opinion about the BingeOn issue, and have learned from their posts as well. I think BingeOn while benefitting some with additional video watching, also is forcing people to accept watching a lower standard of video. To some, the new cost of the Unlimited plans are too expensive and may very well go away soon. Then the costs per gb of limited data plans are also too expensive to pay for HD video streams. A 3gb-5gb HD movie would cost around $15+ just for one viewing of that movie. When there are people here on S4GRU admitting that T-Mobile could get 720p in at around their 1.5mbps stream average for BingeOn, there isn't a good reason for T-Mobile not to enable that. They even could up that stream to 3mbps and get 1080p in that stream, which if they really cared for their customer's experience as they claim they do, then they ought to do that.

 

I'm not all pro-unlimited and I've certainly advocated for sensibly priced limited data plans, where an HD movie stream would only cost around $3 to $5 per stream. However, I really hate the hindrance in technology and forcing people to accept that and a lower standard in technological quality, which T-Mobile essentially is doing using BingeOn, with false pretense about it. Just like what T-Mobile has done with changing contracts into 2-year EIPs, including mostly unneeded features into plans then raising the prices on them rather than offering those features separately keeping the plan rates lower, then of course claiming its addressing "customer pain points", etc. As if T-Mobile were a doctor, when all they've done is by doctoring their image as though they care about the customer.

[richy]

I thought about posting that link here too, but I was too upset about it.

 

I share nexgencpu's opinion about the BingeOn issue, and have learned from their posts as well. I think BingeOn while benefitting some with additional video watching, also is forcing people to accept watching a lower standard of video. To some, the new cost of the Unlimited plans are too expensive and may very well go away soon. Then the costs per gb of limited data plans are also too expensive to pay for HD video streams. A 3gb-5gb HD movie would cost around $15+ just for one viewing of that movie. When there are people here on S4GRU admitting that T-Mobile could get 720p in at around their 1.5mbps stream average for BingeOn, there isn't a good reason for T-Mobile not to enable that. They even could up that stream to 3mbps and get 1080p in that stream, which if they really cared for their customer's experience as they claim they do, then they ought to do that.

 

I'm not all pro-unlimited and I've certainly advocated for sensibly priced limited data plans, where an HD movie stream would only cost around $3 to $5 per stream. However, I really hate the hindrance in technology and forcing people to accept that and a lower standard in technological quality, which T-Mobile essentially is doing using BingeOn, with false pretense about it. Just like what T-Mobile has done with changing contracts into 2-year EIPs, including mostly unneeded features into plans then raising the prices on them rather than offering those features separately keeping the plan rates lower, then of course claiming its addressing "customer pain points", etc. As if T-Mobile were a doctor, when all they've done is by doctoring their image as though they care about the customer.

 

Again, how is it forcing anyone? All you have to do is cludge on button, although it should have been opt in.

 

There's a reasonable debate about it possibly being a danger to net neutrality (although less than sprinttv or go90)  but nobody is forced into anything. I'm getting a little tired of seeing the same misinformation. Can we try and not keep repeating bubbles and move onto something worth discussing.

[Houston_Texas]

Again, how is it forcing anyone? All you have to do is cludge on button, although it should have been opt in.

 

There's a reasonable debate about it possibly being a danger to net neutrality (although less than sprinttv or go90) but nobody is forced into anything. I'm getting a little tired of seeing the same misinformation. Can we try and not keep repeating bubbles and move onto something worth discussing.

Totally agree.

 

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[Arysyn]

Again, how is it forcing anyone? All you have to do is cludge on button, although it should have been opt in.

 

There's a reasonable debate about it possibly being a danger to net neutrality (although less than sprinttv or go90)  but nobody is forced into anything. I'm getting a little tired of seeing the same misinformation. Can we try and not keep repeating bubbles and move onto something worth discussing.

 

While it isn't forcing directly, it is indirectly. Sure, there is an option to turn it off, but by T-Mobile raising rates and discussing about removing unlimited data in the media (or at least leading towards that), it is moving in the direction of not giving people a choice but to accept it. The other issue I haven't mentioned, is the 25gb deprioritization point on unlimited data plans. Now before I talk about it here, please everyone understand I'm not advocating for data misuse, and I'll agree 25gb of data is quite a lot of data to be used at full speed before deprioritization activates. It is enough for eight one and a half hour 3gb HD movies I'm basing from one I own that is 3gb. However, there are people who might want to watch more than that. The reported deprioritized speeds from people on Reddit, TmoNews, etc. are too slow even for 480p viewing, basically forcing those people to activate BingeOn, as T-Mobile doesn't offer additional non-throttled data purchase options, unlike AT&T and Verizon.

 

So yes, T-Mobile is indirectly forcing this. That is why I've advocated here that T-Mobile do either one of two things, perhaps even both. Up BingeOn to 3mbps, which would enable 1080p, essentially eliminating all complaints over the issue, except for those net neutrality issues. Also, T-Mobile could extend a promotional feature from last year where they were offering additional data packs of 10gb for $10 each. That basically is like charging $1 per 1 gb. Based on the example I used here earlier of the 3gb HD movie I own, that would cost $3 per viewing over wireless, which is reasonable. If T-Mobile did this, it would go a long way to resolve the issues being criticized regarding BingeOn. T-Mobile wouldn't even need BingeOn restricting resolution, if they offered plans based on speed caps. That is a third idea which would help them too.