LTE-A, Carrier Aggregation, '5G', etc...

[milan03]

Sprint did say they (in the q2 earning report) were working with Qualcomm to have devices support 3 x 20mhz CA support for early to mid 2015

Qualcomm's Cat 9/10 MDM9x45 baseband processor was always suppose to come in H2 2015. The major news here is that Qualcomm has decided to upgrade the IP stack in Snapdragon 810 from original Cat 6 3x CA (300Mbps) to Cat 9 3x CA (450Mbps).

[MacinJosh]

Nope, not the presumed Samsung Galaxy S6 nor the expected iPhone 6S. The earliest that the Snapdragon 810 (MSM8994) will make it into consumer handsets is sometime in the second half of next year. An LG G4 and a Samsung Galaxy Note 5 are potential candidates. And you will not ever find a Snapdragon chipset in an iPhone -- because Apple uses its own ARM based processors.

 

AJ

I see the S6 and the next iPhone and even the Note 5 having 2 carrier CA, and if there is a Note Edge 2, that may be the first with 3 carrier CA. I'm basing this off what this years Sprint phones came with.

 

 

Sent from Josh's iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk

[gnoj]

Qualcomm's Cat 9/10 MDM9x45 baseband processor was always suppose to come in H2 2015. The major news here is that Qualcomm has decided to upgrade the IP stack in Snapdragon 810 from original Cat 6 3x CA (300Mbps) to Cat 9 3x CA (450Mbps).

The SD808 & 810 were always going to support the aggregation of three 20 MHz carriers, which if they're FDD would theoretically reach 450 Mbps. So what exactly did Qualcomm change to now label them as Cat 9/10 rather than 6/7? Is this just a marketing change prompted by Samsung's announcement of Cat 9 support in their next Exynos SoC? Why wouldn't they have just announced them as Cat 9/10 to begin with?

 

I see the S6 and the next iPhone and even the Note 5 having 2 carrier CA, and if there is a Note Edge 2, that may be the first with 3 carrier CA. I'm basing this off what this years Sprint phones came with.

All rumors currently point to this spring's flagships coming with the SD810, which supports 3x CA. That means Q1 announcements (mostly at MWC) for the S6, M9, Z4, etc, and a Q2 release, assuming TSMC & Qualcomm don't run into any further issues with 20nm yields or during chip validation. Overall, Cat 6/7 is looking to be a very short-lasting intermediary step, as far as models designated for the US market go.

 

Apple always seems a step behind in this department (see: general LTE, B41 for Sprint, 802.11ac), so I could believe that they'd only manage to do 2xCA in the next iPhone.

[sbolen]

Apple always seems a step behind in this department (see: general LTE, B41 for Sprint, 802.11ac), so I could believe that they'd only manage to do 2xCA in the next iPhone.

With as much data as iPhone users consume, that's probably a good thing.

[dkyeager]

Qualcomm's Cat 9/10 MDM9x45 baseband processor was always suppose to come in H2 2015. The major news here is that Qualcomm has decided to upgrade the IP stack in Snapdragon 810 from original Cat 6 3x CA (300Mbps) to Cat 9 3x CA (450Mbps).

 

Will this change actually provide major benefits for Sprint users -- isn't the maximum Sprint b41 capability about 80Mbps per carrier?

[milan03]

The SD808 & 810 were always going to support the aggregation of three 20 MHz carriers, which if they're FDD would theoretically reach 450 Mbps. So what exactly did Qualcomm change to now label them as Cat 9/10 rather than 6/7? Is this just a marketing change prompted by Samsung's announcement of Cat 9 support in their next Exynos SoC? Why wouldn't they have just announced them as Cat 9/10 to begin with?

 

810 was originally announced with integrated Cat 6 capabilities, and with maximum aggregate downlink capacity at 300Mbps. So you could aggregate three component carriers, but 20+10+10MHz or similar. Perfect for Verizon if the ever decide to do 3xCA.

 

Cat 9/10 is capable of 450Mbps on the downlink by aggregating three 20MHz CCs. That was going to be a standalone MDM9x45 baseband processor, but they've decided to integrate it into SD810 as well. 

[bigsnake49]

810 was originally announced with integrated Cat 6 capabilities, and with maximum aggregate downlink capacity at 300Mbps. So you could aggregate three component carriers, but 20+10+10MHz or similar. Perfect for Verizon if the ever decide to do 3xCA.

 

Cat 9/10 is capable of 450Mbps on the downlink by aggregating three 20MHz CCs. That was going to be a standalone MDM9x45 baseband processor, but they've decided to integrate it into SD810 as well. 

 

MDM9x45 is supposed to be category 10 capable. Same download speed as category 9 but double the upload speed.

Edited December 16, 2014 by bigsnake49

[milan03]

Another trial this time in the UK (EE) with Snapdragon 810, in a 20+20+15MHz combination. 410Mbps peak rates.

 

http://www.telecoms.com/312571/huawei-ee-qualcomm-claim-410mbps-via-lte-cat-9/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=huawei-ee-qualcomm-claim-410mbps-via-lte-cat-9

[joshnys8913]

Having 4G LTE on every tower would be helpful first, then we can think about "5G".... 

[gnoj]

810 was originally announced with integrated Cat 6 capabilities, and with maximum aggregate downlink capacity at 300Mbps. So you could aggregate three component carriers, but 20+10+10MHz or similar. Perfect for Verizon if the ever decide to do 3xCA.

 

Cat 9/10 is capable of 450Mbps on the downlink by aggregating three 20MHz CCs. That was going to be a standalone MDM9x45 baseband processor, but they've decided to integrate it into SD810 as well.

No. The SD 808 & 810 were always capable of 3x20 MHz CA, as detailed in this Anandtech article, which I referenced in part for this post. Despite that, they had initially only been rated to 300 Mbps (Cat 6/7). I seriously doubt that this late in the process that they have replaced the integrated 9x35 modem with the 9x45. Rather, in the face of announcements from Samsung of upcoming Cat 9 support, and/or as a result of additional testing during the validation process that went well, they decided to up the advertised speed limit to 450 Mbps. With respect to Sprint's network plans, this increase doesn't really make a difference, but it is a rather curious development, and begs the question of what exactly they changed (just the modem's firmware?), and why they hadn't felt compelled to advertise it as Cat 9/10 from the get-go (lack of operator preparedness?)

 

Will this change actually provide major benefits for Sprint users -- isn't the maximum Sprint b41 capability about 80Mbps per carrier?

101 Mbps down/14.7 Mbps up, as currently configured. Given that real-world speeds (assuming strong signal, sufficient backhaul, etc) will top out at 80-90 Mbps per carrier, no, I wouldn't expect it to make a difference.

 

Where the just announced 9x45 modem (which will probably show up later in 2015 in the SD 810's successor) may provide a benefit for Sprint users over the 9x35 is in its improved power envelope (which should help reduce CA's impact on battery life), smaller footprint (it can do 3x20 MHz downlink CA + 2x20 MHz uplink CA as a smaller one-part, rather than two-part solution), and its ability to aggregate FDD & TDD carriers together. If Sprint ever opts to do, for example, B25+B41 CA, then that modem should support that to some degree.

[WiWavelength]

With respect to Sprint's network plans, this increase doesn't really make a difference, but it is a rather curious development...

 

101 Mbps down/14.7 Mbps up, as currently configured. Given that real-world speeds (assuming strong signal, sufficient backhaul, etc) will top out at 80-90 Mbps per carrier, no, I wouldn't expect it to make a difference.

 

Eh, Category 9 may make a difference to Sprint Spark carrier aggregation.  With respect to LTE UE categories, maximum throughput capabilities usually arise from simultaneous Resource Block limitations.  For example, just because a mobile is compatible with a 20 MHz FDD carrier does not mean that it is capable of simultaneously accessing all 100 RBs.  That depends on the LTE UE category.  But simultaneously accessing all RBs is necessary for maximum throughput.  And to continue to use the 20 MHz FDD carrier example, maximum throughput in a 2x2 MIMO configuration is 150 Mbps.  Category 6 apparently cannot scale that full RB usage across all three aggregated carriers, but Category 9 can.

 

AJ

[gnoj]

Category 6 apparently cannot scale that full RB usage across all three aggregated carriers, but Category 9 can.

This may be a moot point now as I am not aware of any other Cat 6 modems that claim to support 3x20 CA, but how would this have applied to Sprint's 6:3 TDD carriers? Would speeds (average or peak) have been noticeably impacted more than the slight difference between the theoretical speed (3*101 Mbps) and advertised speed of Cat 6/7 suggests? Do all of the RB's within a TDD carrier need to be addressed simultaneously (including those dedicated to the uplink), to utilize all the downlink time slots?

[WiWavelength]

Do all of the RB's within a TDD carrier need to be addressed simultaneously (including those dedicated to the uplink), to utilize all the downlink time slots?

 

Yup.  TDD is no different from FDD in that regard.  A 20 MHz TDD carrier still has 100 RBs.

 

AJ

[gnoj]

Yup. TDD is no different from FDD in that regard. A 20 MHz TDD carrier still has 100 RBs.

Ok. So is it correct to say that the difference between a Cat 6-rated modem that has been modified to do 3x20 CA, and a Cat 9 modem is not the number or width of the component carriers that can be aggregated, but rather the maximum number of RB's that can be addressed simultaneously?

 

If the RB address limit is 250, for example (calculated from the more standard Cat 6 limit of 20+20+10 MHz FDD; I don't know if this was the actual limit), then the benefit in the case of FDD is only for the operator, who can spread connections of non-CA devices between three 20x20 carriers (or between two different 20x20 carriers each set as a SCC for 2x20 CA-capable devices), rather than having to leave one of the two available SCC's @ 10 MHz FDD?

 

For Sprint's 6:3 TDD, a 250 RB limit would limit throughout by ~16% vs a 450 Mbps/300 RB (Cat 9) modem. So that before the Snapdragon's recent recertification, if two devices, one with a "450 Mbps" Cat 9 modem, and one with a SD 808/810 were both connected in the same location to three B41 carriers, and the Cat 9 device is able to download at 180 Mbps, the other would only be able to muster 150 Mbps (theoretical peak of 252.5 Mbps)?

 

If this was the case, then what Qualcomm was able to change was the RB address limit, increasing it from 200-250 to 300, with all RB's having to be in either a FDD or TDD carrier, but not a mix, as is allowed in the 9x45.

[dkyeager]

[milan03]

No. The SD 808 & 810 were always capable of 3x20 MHz CA, as detailed in this Anandtech article, which I referenced in part for this post. Despite that, they had initially only been rated to 300 Mbps (Cat 6/7). I seriously doubt that this late in the process that they have replaced the integrated 9x35 modem with the 9x45. Rather, in the face of announcements from Samsung of upcoming Cat 9 support, and/or as a result of additional testing during the validation process that went well, they decided to up the advertised speed limit to 450 Mbps. With respect to Sprint's network plans, this increase doesn't really make a difference, but it is a rather curious development, and begs the question of what exactly they changed (just the modem's firmware?), and why they hadn't felt compelled to advertise it as Cat 9/10 from the get-go (lack of operator preparedness?)

The thing is that Anandtech article also states that SD810 is Cat 6/7 capable of 20+10+10. It was never capable of aggregating three 20Mhz component carriers, per Qualcomm's pressers. It was the very first 3x CA capable solution, but that's about it. 300Mbps max capable of addressing up to 40MHz aggregate downlink capacity.

 

"Both SoCs have a MDM9x35 derived LTE Category 6/7 modem. The SoCs feature essentially the same modem core as a 9x35 discrete modem, but with one exception: Qualcomm enabled support for 3 carrier aggregation LTE (up from 2). The discrete 9x35 modem implementation can aggregate up to two 20MHz LTE carriers in order to reach Cat 6 LTE's 300Mbps peak download rate. The 808/810, on the other hand, can combine up to three 20MHz LTE carriers (although you'll likely see 3x CA used with narrower channels, e.g. 20MHz + 5MHz + 5MHz or 20MHz + 10MHz + 10MHz)."

[gnoj]

The thing is that Anandtech article also states that SD810 is Cat 6/7 capable of 20+10+10. It was never capable of aggregating three 20Mhz component carriers, per Qualcomm's pressers.

Yes, the press release did say it was capable of 3x20 MHz CA. The Anandtech article focuses on 20+10+10 only because the author forgot or was not aware of Sprint's plans, and thought that was the widest combination that would be available for the foreseeable future within the US.

[milan03]

Yes, the press release did say it was capable of 3x20 MHz CA. The Anandtech article focuses on 20+10+10 only because the author forgot or was not aware of Sprint's plans, and thought that was the widest combination that would available for the foreseeable future within the US.

Let me put it differently. Any LTE Cat 6 modem is capable of up to 300Mbps, and capable of addressing up to 40Mhz of aggregate downlink capacity, period. Thats what Cat 6 is by its definition.

 

So if you are a wireless operator that for some reason have three 20MHz disparate LTE channels and want to aggregate them, that Cat 6 MDM9x35 UE will able to address up to 200 RBs, 40Mhz of downlink capacity, 300Mbps peak downlink rates. Plain and simple.

[gnoj]

Let me put it differently. Any LTE Cat 6 modem is capable of up to 300Mbps, and capable of addressing up to 40Mhz of aggregate downlink capacity, period. Thats what Cat 6 is by its definition.

 

So if you are a wireless operator that for some reason have three 20MHz disparate LTE channels and want to aggregate them, that Cat 6 MDM9x35 UE will able to address up to 200 RBs, 40Mhz of downlink capacity, 300Mbps peak downlink rates. Plain and simple.

The SD 810 uses a bolt-on solution to extend that to 60 MHz, and was initially advertised as such. That much is clear. It could connect to all 60 MHz, even if it may have only been able to "process" 40 MHz worth of RB's.

 

What isn't clear, and what we can only speculate about, is why they didn't just run with that all the way & have it certified as Cat 9-ready back in April. Raising the RB limit to 300 to keep up with the competition, rather than being able to keep it artificially lower in order to differentiate it enough from its eventual successor, seems the most likely answer.

[milan03]

The SD 810 uses a bolt-on solution to extend that to 60 MHz, and was initially advertised as such. That much is clear. It could connect to all 60 MHz, even if it may have only been able to "process" 40 MHz worth of RB's.

What isn't clear, and what we can only speculate about, is why they didn't just run with that all the way & have it certified as Cat 9-ready back in April. Raising the RB limit to 300 to keep up with the competition, rather than being able to keep it artificially lower in order to differentiate it enough from its eventual successor, seems the most likely answer.

Because that's not what it was. It was a MDM9x35 IP stack integrated into SoC. Now they're integrating MDM9x45 that was suppose to be released only as a standalone. Not the same solution.

[gnoj]

Because that's not what it was. It was a MDM9x35 IP stack integrated into SoC. Now they're integrating MDM9x45 that was suppose to be released only as a standalone. Not the same solution.

Do you have a source that says that they've switched out the 9x35 modem for the 9x45? The official press release doesn't say either way. A few third-party sites of questionable reliability that I've come across say that the 9x35 is still what is being used.

[milan03]

Do you have a source that says that they've switched out the 9x35 modem for the 9x45? The official press release doesn't say either way. A few third-party sites of questionable reliability that I've come across say that the 9x35 is still what is being used.

MDM9x35 = Qualcomm's 4th Gen modem, Category 6 capable of 300Mbps using either 2x or 3x CA.

MDM9x45 = Qualcomm's 5th Gen modem, Cat 9 or 10, capable of 450Mbps on the downlink with 3x CA.

 

Browse through their press releases https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases

[gnoj]

MDM9x35 = Qualcomm's 4th Gen modem, Category 6 capable of 300Mbps using either 2x or 3x CA.

MDM9x45 = Qualcomm's 5th Gen modem, Cat 9 or 10, capable of 450Mbps on the downlink with 3x CA.

 

Browse through their press releases https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases

So no source then. I've already read the pertinent press release, as I mentioned, and it doesn't explicitly say that it is using the 9x45. Other sources that do happen to mention the modem used (dated after the Dec 11 announcement from Qualcomm) still say it is the 9x35.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong. Indeed, I hope you're right. It'll be cool for the SD 810 to have all the new benefits of the MDM9x45. I would just be surprised if they've managed to do that, since the feature set of chips is usually already locked-in this close to volume production.

 

Given that the 9x35-based solution used in the chip could already address 60 MHz of aggregated spectrum, it is within the realm of possibility that there was some sort of software-based patch applied to that modem to allow it to support 300 RBs @ Cat 9/10 speeds, so that the SoC's basic components have not changed. The chip will be out in a couple of months anyway so hopefully we'll get an updated in-depth analysis of the architecture soon.

[milan03]

So no source then. I've already read the pertinent press release, as I mentioned, and it doesn't explicitly say that it is using the 9x45. Other sources that do happen to mention the modem used (dated after the Dec 11 announcement from Qualcomm) still say it is the 9x35.

I'm not saying you're wrong. Indeed, I hope you're right. It'll be cool for the SD 810 to have all the new benefits of the MDM9x45. I would just be surprised if they've managed to do that, since the feature set of chips is usually already locked-in this close to volume production.

Given that the 9x35-based solution used in the chip could already address 60 MHz of aggregated spectrum, it is within the realm of possibility that there was some sort of software-based patch applied to that modem to allow it to support 300 RBs @ Cat 9/10 speeds, so that the SoC's basic components have not changed. The chip will be out in a couple of months anyway so hopefully we'll get an updated in-depth analysis of the architecture soon.

Yeah, well this is common sense. There is a valid reason why a standalone/integrated modem is marketed as Cat 6 and not Cat 9. It isn't Cat 9 because it can't aggregate 60Mhz of downlink spectrum. Cat 6 is limited to 40Mhz.

 

 

 

 

 

No disrespect, but why would you ever assume that anyone in their right mind would go ahead and build a SoC with the integrated modem capable of 450Mbps, but limiting the capabilities to 300Mbps?

 

Aside from that, the benefit of a standalone MDM9x45 solutuon (vs integrated) is CA on the uplink (100Mbps) which makes it a Cat 10 solution. The downlink is the same 450Mbps. SD810 is only Cat 9, without CA on the uplink.

[anthony.spina97]

My brain... It hurts...

 

-Anthony