Marcelo Claure, Town Hall Meetings, New Family Share Pack Plan, Unlimited Individual Plan, Discussion Thread

[Deval]

Obviously some parts are better than others. I would expect them to have solid coverage in places like Jersey City but if you head into less urban areas things change and I'm not talking about some rural suburbs but areas with a lot of people

 

I'm mostly in Somerset and parts of Mercer and there are coverage holes that have been there for years. Step inside too many shopping centers and you're on 3G which is often useless. They also never seem to keep up with development.

 

Anything south of Exit 8 is tough in my experience. Not that much site density, but the ones that are upgraded are often with CA as well.

[JustinRP37]

Again, talking about more than Sprint. Sprint is the worse carrier to use talking about mmW use in 5G.

 

AT&T and VZ can get their own band, yes, but chances are it'll find it's way in a superset like Band 17. The only special band here is VZ's B13 because they hold a monopoly on it.

 

I know everything published doesn't happen, like CDMA Rev. C. But until someone suggests a better idea, mmW is 5G as far as we can tell, and it makes a lot of sense.

 

Every engineer who has a good understanding of physics are the ones preaching that high band will be perfect for 5G networks. So I do not believe I'm ignoring the physics, especially since a lot of articles suggest that EHF wouldn't be awful for 5G, but instead, very good.

 

B41 doesn't relieve B26 or B41 because it's not block by block like I'm suggesting 5G will be. B41 comes and goes with major gaps in between. It's not a good example to denounce a 39GHz network. That's where small cells come in for 5G, and to fix Sprint's network.

 

I'm a strong believer in mmW because there's science behind it and the entire industry is backing it. I'd be more hesitant if it was just one group suggesting it, but it's literally everyone. It's hard to say an entire industry with scientific papers and engineers backing it are wrong. 

 

One way to make a stronger argument in academic circles is to put the citations out there. When you say the entire industry is backing it, give a reference or two. That will quiet the naysayers. Likewise when you say every engineer, cite some, it makes for a stronger argument.

 

I will say that unfortunately science and research only goes so far in this country. Most of the decisions regarding cellular technology will be made  by CEO's to maximize profit and shareholder value. This area is where you are going to get the most pushback with your plan. While engineers and academics in technology may be saying this is amazing technology, it has to be able to either increase profits, cut operating costs, or both for it to be a deployable technology on the national networks. It could be the best, fastest technology in the world, but if they need 10x the operating expense because they need 10x the number of sites, then chances are those technologies will be held back until it becomes more economical. 

[payturr]

One way to make a stronger argument in academic circles is to put the citations out there. When you say the entire industry is backing it, give a reference or two. That will quiet the naysayers. Likewise when you say every engineer, cite some, it makes for a stronger argument.

 

I will say that unfortunately science and research only goes so far in this country. Most of the decisions regarding cellular technology will be made  by CEO's to maximize profit and shareholder value. This area is where you are going to get the most pushback with your plan. While engineers and academics in technology may be saying this is amazing technology, it has to be able to either increase profits, cut operating costs, or both for it to be a deployable technology on the national networks. It could be the best, fastest technology in the world, but if they need 10x the operating expense because they need 10x the number of sites, then chances are those technologies will be held back until it becomes more economical. 

I actually posted a link or two yesterday, namely to NYU's 5G paper.

 

But you're right, costs is important. Ultimately in the next few years Nokia, Ericsson, Intel, Qualcomm have to work with carriers to make an affordable solution that can be deployed widespread and offer a reasonable return on investment. 

[greenbastard]

Again, talking about more than Sprint. Sprint is the worse carrier to use talking about mmW use in 5G.

 

AT&T and VZ can get their own band, yes, but chances are it'll find it's way in a superset like Band 17. The only special band here is VZ's B13 because they hold a monopoly on it.

 

I know everything published doesn't happen, like CDMA Rev. C. But until someone suggests a better idea, mmW is 5G as far as we can tell, and it makes a lot of sense.

 

Every engineer who has a good understanding of physics are the ones preaching that high band will be perfect for 5G networks. So I do not believe I'm ignoring the physics, especially since a lot of articles suggest that EHF wouldn't be awful for 5G, but instead, very good.

 

B41 doesn't relieve B26 or B41 because it's not block by block like I'm suggesting 5G will be. B41 comes and goes with major gaps in between. It's not a good example to denounce a 39GHz network. That's where small cells come in for 5G, and to fix Sprint's network.

 

I'm a strong believer in mmW because there's science behind it and the entire industry is backing it. I'd be more hesitant if it was just one group suggesting it, but it's literally everyone. It's hard to say an entire industry with scientific papers and engineers backing it are wrong.

Play close attention to the bold part you wrote. If you still don't understand why ultra high band mobile internet won't happen in the next decade, then I give up.

[payturr]

Play close attention to the bold part you wrote. If you still don't understand why ultra high band mobile internet won't happen in the next decade, then I give up.

Major gaps because they're collocated on MACRO SITES with B26 and B25. If you don't understand that EHF won't be on any macros, then I give up.

[ase500]

Play close attention to the bold part you wrote. If you still don't understand why ultra high band mobile internet won't happen in the next decade, then I give up.

He doesn't get it. He doesn't understand hype vs reality. If I bought into hype then my S7 should have 60Ghz already, they promised back in 2014 that all of their products would be 802.11ad 60Ghz by 2015. I give up on him. You and I and everyone else knows it isn't going to happen anytime soon. However, at 19 he just doesn't have the experience to understand why we are seeing these papers and why the hype.

 

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[ase500]

I actually posted a link or two yesterday, namely to NYU's 5G paper.

 

But you're right, costs is important. Ultimately in the next few years Nokia, Ericsson, Intel, Qualcomm have to work with carriers to make an affordable solution that can be deployed widespread and offer a reasonable return on investment.

You keep pointing at 5G as if that was next week or something. IMT 2020 gives until October of 2020 for submission of candidate technology. This means at least 2022 for final standards. With prototypes maybe around 2023. Full production of equipment in 2024 and maybe initial rollouts starting in 2025. You're talking 2027 or 2028 for anyone to have a large footprint of 5G. http://www.3gpp.org/news-events/3gpp-news/1674-timeline_5g

 

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[kg4icg]

Just give him a Extra Class ham radio manual and let him get his mind wrapped up in the formulas for frequencies and antennas. Db gain especially in the ehf bands where hams have been experimenting right into 300ghz. Then he might understand sometimes it isn't simple as he thinks it is. I've been a ham for 16 years and a rf burn at 1.2ghz at 12 watts is smart. Kenwood TS2000X to be exact.

 

Sent from my LGLS996 using Tapatalk

[payturr]

You keep pointing at 5G as if that was next week or something. IMT 2020 gives until October of 2020 for submission of candidate technology. This means at least 2022 for final standards. With prototypes maybe around 2023. Full production of equipment in 2024 and maybe initial rollouts starting in 2025. You're talking 2027 or 2028 for anyone to have a large footprint of 5G. http://www.3gpp.org/news-events/3gpp-news/1674-timeline_5g

 

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

I said next few years. I never said anything about standardizing. They're gonna be figuring out the tech over the course of the next few years. 

[payturr]

Just give him a Extra Class ham radio manual and let him get his mind wrapped up in the formulas for frequencies and antennas. Db gain especially in the ehf bands where hams have been experimenting right into 300ghz. Then he might understand sometimes it isn't simple as he thinks it is. I've been a ham for 16 years and a rf burn at 1.2ghz at 12 watts is smart. Kenwood TS2000X to be exact.

 

Sent from my LGLS996 using Tapatalk

I never said it was simple, I'm not an engineer. But it's not as impossible as you guys are making it out to be if literally most engineers and basically every company is backing these trials.

[ase500]

I said next few years. I never said anything about standardizing. They're gonna be figuring out the tech over the course of the next few years. 

And Everyone else told you at least 10 years and you insisted on arguing. Even though 5G isn't even defined and won't be for at least 5 years. You kept bringing up WiGig a Defunct Group and 802.11AD which is not been produced in any mass device as of yet despite announcements from from heavy weights like Samsung, Panasonic, and TP-link. None of these companies have met release date of the technology some by years. Don't you think that sound very much like these heavy weights are having problems with even the small devices they are trying to develop? The deadline is 2019 for proof of concept and 2020 for technical specs. That means someone would have to already have a workable plan to get it into the specs in time for 5G. Yet here we are not even a small router to cover a small room has been successfully built and produced to market in 9 years. The most life we have seen in any use of such technology is for Wireless USB and Wireless HDMI. And 3gpp has said it will only entertain the idea of anything above 6 Ghz, they haven't even committed to hearing about technology above that frequency. If they are on the fence about 6 Ghz how do you think they feel about 30-60 Ghz? 

[ase500]

I never said it was simple, I'm not an engineer. But it's not as impossible as you guys are making it out to be if literally most engineers and basically every company is backing these trials.

Please provide proof these companies had committed to such trials.... I don't mean some random blurb about how it might be possible but, a proof of concept test result. Pictures, video, not papers about how it "could" be done..... 

[payturr]

Please provide proof these companies had committed to such trials.... I don't mean some random blurb about how it might be possible but, a proof of concept test result. Pictures, video, not papers about how it "could" be done..... 

 

It's not really the most professional video, but it's better than nothing

[ase500]

 

It's not really the most professional video, but it's better than nothing

Nice except that was 28 Ghz not 30-60 and it was point to mobile point, not point multi-point. And that video also is 2 years old. About the same time they promised to put 802.11AD into the S6 and beyond. How did that turn out?

[payturr]

Nice except that was 28 Ghz not 30-60 and it was point to mobile point, not point multi-point. And that video also is 2 years old. About the same time they promised to put 802.11AD into the S6 and beyond. How did that turn out?

 

28GHz is still mmW and it's right next door to 30GHz. I've been mentioning 39GHz for the most part, the only time I mentioned 60GHz was for 802.11ad. I don't really have an opinion about 60GHz, but I would like to have a reason to talk about it so I'm waiting for one of the big manufacturers to make it happen. And yes it's not point to multi point but it was the first major test. Multi point will come with the trials this year.

 

So what if it's 2 years old? You asked for proof, I gave you proof, and it's a sign that people are working on it and that it's more than just a paper.

 

Listen, maybe the companies working with 802.11ad had manufacturing issues. But now with announcements of actual consumer tech and consumer modems, eventually we'll have access to the hardware, hopefully before the year's over.

[ase500]

28GHz is still mmW and it's right next door to 30GHz. I've been mentioning 39GHz for the most part, the only time I mentioned 60GHz was for 802.11ad. I don't really have an opinion about 60GHz, but I would like to have a reason to talk about it so I'm waiting for one of the big manufacturers to make it happen.

 

So what if it's 2 years old? You asked for proof, I gave you proof, and it's a sign that people are working on it and that it's more than just a paper.

 

Listen, maybe the companies working with 802.11ad had manufacturing issues. But now with announcements of actual consumer tech and consumer modems, eventually we'll have access to the hardware, hopefully before the year's over.

28 Ghz is further away from 39 Ghz than 800 Mhz to 2.5 Ghz by several times over and you can see how the propagation differs. 2 years is very very VERY telling, if they were able to make even 28 Ghz stable they would be shouting it from the rooftops. Yet we hear nothing and we see nothing. In the entire world we see only a single demo of a single P2P connection that isn't in the same range as you are talking about and we see nothing else.  We see them use the term 5G and yet it hasn't been defined.... This is what I mean when I say Hype Vs Reality. You can't seem to tell the difference. 

[payturr]

28 Ghz is further away from 39 Ghz than 800 Mhz to 2.5 Ghz by several times over and you can see how the propagation differs. 2 years is very very VERY telling, if they were able to make even 28 Ghz stable they would be shouting it from the rooftops. Yet we hear nothing and we see nothing. In the entire world we see only a single demo of a single P2P connection that isn't in the same range as you are talking about and we see nothing else.  We see them use the term 5G and yet it hasn't been defined.... This is what I mean when I say Hype Vs Reality. You can't seem to tell the difference. 

You're right, we haven't heard anything or seen anything in 2 years. I'm not gonna say they're cooking up something. But I'm not gonna say it's just hype. If it was just hype, no one else who's seriously invested in industry would look at it; they'd just move on. That's not the case, and I'll say it again - everyone is looking into this. It's not a niche group, it's literally the whole industry; there is something here and everyone acknowledges it, and that's why everyone is going to be playing with it this year and next year. AT&T and Verizon are bent to find pre-standard solutions, they have the finances to support their moonshots so they're gonna find a way and ultimately, it could be one of their proposals that makes it to the standardization committees. I don't know who's concept will make it, but I'm gonna stick to what I've been saying:

•  The chances 5G uses EHF is very likely as everyone is looking at it and research backs potential
•  This would require massive small cell deployment, MIMO, and beamforming
•  This is best fit for urban deployment and not much else 
•  We'll see a standard in the next 6 years with rollout in the next 6-10 years

[ase500]

 

You're right, we haven't heard anything or seen anything in 2 years. I'm not gonna say they're cooking up something. But I'm not gonna say it's just hype. If it was just hype, no one else who's seriously invested in industry would look at it; they'd just move on. That's not the case, and I'll say it again - everyone is looking into this. It's not a niche group, it's literally the whole industry; there is something here and everyone acknowledges it, and that's why everyone is going to be playing with it this year and next year. AT&T and Verizon are bent to find pre-standard solutions, they have the finances to support their moonshots so they're gonna find a way and ultimately, it could be one of their proposals that makes it to the standardization committees. I don't know who's concept will make it, but I'm gonna stick to what I've been saying:

•  The chances 5G uses EHF is very likely as everyone is looking at it and research backs potential
•  This would require massive small cell deployment, MIMO, and beamforming
•  This is best fit for urban deployment and not much else 
•  We'll see a standard in the next 6 years with rollout in the next 6-10 years

 

Gee look at that a summary of what we have been telling you. However, it is unlikely to see anything above 6 Ghz in the standards, and "5G" test radios currently being tested are currently in the 3-6 Ghz range.  Remember that 28 Ghz test was beam formed and with a single client that is a very different situation than several hundred users. Current tests in the 6 Ghz range are in the 10s of Gbps with samsung equipment. So why would Verizon and ATT or anyone else start tossing money at 39-60 Ghz?

[payturr]

Gee look at that a summary of what we have been telling you. However, it is unlikely to see anything above 6 Ghz in the standards, and "5G" test radios currently being tested are currently in the 3-6 Ghz range.  Remember that 28 Ghz test was beam formed and with a single client that is a very different situation than several hundred users. Current tests in the 6 Ghz range are in the 10s of Gbps with samsung equipment. So why would Verizon and ATT or anyone else start tossing money at 39-60 Ghz?

More like what I've been saying. You can go back and look at my posts from yesterday, I've been firm about urban deployment, mmW, and 6 year standardization with a rollout. 

 

Where did you find these current tests in 6GHz range? Because a quick search does not find 6GHz being used by Samsung to produce 10Gbps. Only test that comes up was a 2013 test with 28GHz. 6GHz is currently used for satellites and fixed point to point networking.

[ase500]

 

 

More like what I've been saying. You can go back and look at my posts from yesterday, I've been firm about urban deployment, mmW, and 6 year standardization with a rollout.

 

Where did you find these current tests in 6GHz range? Because a quick search does not find 6GHz being used by Samsung to produce 10Gbps. Only test that comes up was a 2013 test with 28GHz. 6GHz is currently used for satellites and fixed point to point networking.

No we, several of us told you it would be at least 10 years off. And we are about 5 years from the first 5G specs and another 5 from there to large deployment. You can look into Verizon's test data. And I ment upto 6 ghz. But, no the entire 6Ghz spectrum is not being used for sat and p2p. Futher Verizon has already been hinting at the fact they may deploy 5G in a way to compete with wireline services. This would also explain why they have been so eager to unload FiOs. I don't think what you think is going to happen is what these companies have in mind. They are well aware of the mobile market and how little room for growth there is in it.

 

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[payturr]

No we, several of us told you it would be at least 10 years off. And we are about 5 years from the first 5G specs and another 5 from there to large deployment. You can look into Verizon's test data. And I ment upto 6 ghz. But, no the entire 6Ghz spectrum is not being used for sat and p2p. Futher Verizon has already been hinting at the fact they may deploy 5G in a way to compete with wireline services. This would also explain why they have been so eager to unload FiOs. I don't think what you think is going to happen is what these companies have in mind. They are well aware of the mobile market and how little room for growth there is in it.

 

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

I said 5-6 years to have the tech hit the market. As in we have equipment that is installable. That's what I've been saying. 10 years to build out more fully.

Yes, I'm aware 5G can compete with wireline services. I've suggested a return to the idea of being WISP before, I'm pretty sure there's a post somewhere around here. But even when you look at WISPs, Facebook said it's building a public wifi network for San Diego using mmW. Sure that'll just be for point to point but it's the start of a very public EHF networking system. Carriers are also looking to 5G for smart cities, smart cars, a vast ocean of potential new sources of revenue. But that doesn't mean they won't also considering involving mmW 5G in the mobile phone. Most of the consumption of the internet happens mobile, so they will be talking about applications.

[ase500]

I said 5-6 years to have the tech hit the market. As in we have equipment that is installable. That's what I've been saying. 10 years to build out more fully.

Yes, I'm aware 5G can compete with wireline services. I've suggested a return to the idea of being WISP before, I'm pretty sure there's a post somewhere around here. But even when you look at WISPs, Facebook said it's building a public wifi network for San Diego using mmW. Sure that'll just be for point to point but it's the start of a very public EHF networking system. Carriers are also looking to 5G for smart cities, smart cars, a vast ocean of potential new sources of revenue. But that doesn't mean they won't also considering involving mmW 5G in the mobile phone. Most of the consumption of the internet happens mobile, so they will be talking about applications.

5 years is when we see draft of the standards not when it gets to market. Your skipping several steps.

 

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[Trip]

Wow I just looked there prices are not that bad actually. Only $299 per month for the 10Gbps. But alas the vast majority of the USA is under the wrath of Comcast, TWC, Cox, etc. I still can't believe the experimental caps of 200Gb some ISPs are trying to do on even premium level service. With the 10Gbps service from EPB you could use that up in under a minute!

 

I used to live in Chattanooga.  Not only was EPB terrific in the price and performance department, their customer service and installation and everything else was fantastic too.  I had exactly one outage with them, which was announced in advance, occurred in the middle of the night, and was required in order for them to increase my speed from 30 Mbps to 50 Mbps at no cost to me.

 

Seriously.  It's the one thing I miss most about Chattanooga.

 

He doesn't get it. He doesn't understand hype vs reality. If I bought into hype then my S7 should have 60Ghz already, they promised back in 2014 that all of their products would be 802.11ad 60Ghz by 2015. I give up on him. You and I and everyone else knows it isn't going to happen anytime soon. However, at 19 he just doesn't have the experience to understand why we are seeing these papers and why the hype.

 

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

 

The ageism here is rather unsettling.  I've seen it mentioned in several posts now, and it doesn't actually prove anything, it just belittles others.  I think we can make our points without it.

 

- Trip

[cdk]

Can we have a separate thread for people to argue about 5G?

[RedSpark]

Can we have a separate thread for people to argue about 5G?

 

S5GRU?