Back to legacy after NV upgrade?

[mrknowitall526]

The tower near my house got 3G NV upgrades about a month ago, and it was awesome... 1.6+ Mbps down.  The past two weeks, it seems it's gone back to legacy speeds...500-700 kbps on average, with slower peaks.  

 

Is it possible to go back to legacy equipment?  I thought after NV upgrades, the legacy stuff was removed.

 

There was a time, right before it seemed to revert to legacy, that the upload speeds were atrocious, while still having "new" 3G.  Perhaps this could be why it went back to legacy equipment?

[S4GRU]

The tower near my house got 3G NV upgrades about a month ago, and it was awesome... 1.6+ Mbps down. The past two weeks, it seems it's gone back to legacy speeds...500-700 kbps on average, with slower peaks.

 

Is it possible to go back to legacy equipment? I thought after NV upgrades, the legacy stuff was removed.

 

There was a time, right before it seemed to revert to legacy, that the upload speeds were atrocious, while still having "new" 3G. Perhaps this could be why it went back to legacy equipment?

If your site does not have LTE accepted, then most likely it is on legacy backhaul. And it probably was on legacy backhaul when it was hitting 1.6Mbps too.

 

When they do a full build site, they install the 3G and LTE equipment all at once. If it ends up only 3G accepted, 99% of the time it is because they did not have new high speed backhaul ready when the physical work was complete. So they could not test and accept the LTE side. So they at least tested and accepted the 3G side so the Contractor could be paid for their work.

 

But now you're wondering why it was faster initially. And why you assumed that new backhaul was in place. That's because the routers on the NV equipment can receive multiple backhaul sources, including multiple T1 lines. On a legacy site, the T1 lines for data and the T1 lines for voice were separate. So there may be 1 or 2 voice T1 lines and 1-4 data T1 lines on a legacy site.

 

But on an NV site, all the voice and T1 lines are plugged in together into the router, and all the sites bandwidth is managed in the router for voice and data combined. So if a 3G NV site doesn't have a lot of voice traffic, data speeds can go up significantly after an NV conversion, even without new backhaul installed.

 

And since QOS priority is given to voice in this setup, if voice needs go up, even temporarily, the data speeds go down accordingly. Also, another issue with this setup is that once 3G data users notice the speeds have gone up, they use it more.

 

So, to recap, NV sites with only 3G accepted almost always are on legacy T1 backhaul. And even gains in performance on 3G will be short lived until LTE and permanent backhaul arrive and are hooked up to the 3G side.

 

Robert via Samsung Galaxy Note 8.0 using Tapatalk

[Terrell352]

What about my case? They accepted a site two days ago 3G only when I know for a fact that it is broadcasting LTE also but it seems that the downtilt, panel and ruu placement or something is way off. I have to go to a particular spot to get LTE from that tower and it only goes for about 2/10th's of a mile. I am assuming that's why LTE was not accepted? 

If your site does not have LTE accepted, then most likely it is on legacy backhaul. And it probably was on legacy backhaul when it was hitting 1.6Mbps too.

When they do a full build site, they install the 3G and LTE equipment all at once. If it ends up only 3G accepted, 99% of the time it is because they did not have new high speed backhaul ready when the physical work was complete. So they could not test and accept the LTE side. So they at least tested and accepted the 3G side so the Contractor could be paid for their work.

But now you're wondering why it was faster initially. And why you assumed that new backhaul was in place. That's because the routers on the NV equipment can receive multiple backhaul sources, including multiple T1 lines. On a legacy site, the T1 lines for data and the T1 lines for voice were separate. So there may be 1 or 2 voice T1 lines and 1-4 data T1 lines on a legacy site.

But on an NV site, all the voice and T1 lines are plugged in together into the router, and all the sites bandwidth is managed in the router for voice and data combined. So if a 3G NV site doesn't have a lot of voice traffic, data speeds can go up significantly after an NV conversion, even without new backhaul installed.

And since QOS priority is given to voice in this setup, if voice needs go up, even temporarily, the data speeds go down accordingly. Also, another issue with this setup is that once 3G data users notice the speeds have gone up, they use it more.

So, to recap, NV sites with only 3G accepted almost always are on legacy T1 backhaul. And even gains in performance on 3G will be short lived until LTE and permanent backhaul arrive and are hooked up to the 3G side.

Robert via Samsung Galaxy Note 8.0 using Tapatalk

[S4GRU]

What about my case? They accepted a site two days ago 3G only when I know for a fact that it is broadcasting LTE also but it seems that the downtilt, panel and ruu placement or something is way off. I have to go to a particular spot to get LTE from that tower and it only goes for about 2/10th's of a mile. I am assuming that's why LTE was not accepted?

 

You said it yourself. The LTE is not accepted. And it sounds like it's not ready. It is definitely not unusual to see some LTE anomalies at a site prior to acceptance.

 

Robert via Samsung Galaxy Note 8.0 using Tapatalk

 

[Terrell352]

Ah ok I was just asking because most of the time in my area when 3g/4g site just came on and is live there normally aren't any problems. I was just wondering how long does it take to correct towers with problems such as downtilt or bad placement of panels

You said it yourself. The LTE is not accepted. And it sounds like it's not ready. It is definitely not unusual to see some LTE anomalies at a site prior to acceptance.

 

Robert via Samsung Galaxy Note 8.0 using Tapatalk

[lvanders]

Since the topic came up of accepting 3g sites and not 4g because of backhaul, why would a site be 4G accepted only and not 3G/4G accepted?  For example on the map of the accepted sites there are different pins for 4g vs 3g/4g sites.  

[Deval]

Since the topic came up of accepting 3g sites and not 4g because of backhaul, why would a site be 4G accepted only and not 3G/4G accepted?  For example on the map of the accepted sites there are different pins for 4g vs 3g/4g sites.  

 

Perhaps it wasn't a retrofit site, rather, a new base station being put in next to the old one?

[S4GRU]

Ah ok I was just asking because most of the time in my area when 3g/4g site just came on and is live there normally aren't any problems. I was just wondering how long does it take to correct towers with problems such as downtilt or bad placement of panels

The Contractor would have been given a correction list. Some Contractors are fast at corrections, others are slow. Sometimes it is the next day. Sometimes it is several weeks or months.

 

Robert via Samsung Galaxy Note 8.0 using Tapatalk

 

 

[S4GRU]

Since the topic came up of accepting 3g sites and not 4g because of backhaul, why would a site be 4G accepted only and not 3G/4G accepted? For example on the map of the accepted sites there are different pins for 4g vs 3g/4g sites.

 

4G LTE fire ups do not have to be drive tested, 911 integrated nor coordinated with other sites. 3G integration is much more entailed and harder to do. Voice has to handoff seamlessly. Data can take a hard handoff.

 

So if a site has everything ready on the LTE side, they can just turn it on. That's why you see so many Samsung and Ericsson sites that LTE goes live first. AlcaLu does it quite differently.

 

Robert via Samsung Galaxy Note 8.0 using Tapatalk

 

[Oakley707]

4G LTE fire ups do not have to be drive tested, 911 integrated nor coordinated with other sites. 3G integration is much more entailed and harder to do. Voice has to handoff seamlessly. Data can take a hard handoff.

 

So if a site has everything ready on the LTE side, they can just turn it on. That's why you see so many Samsung and Ericsson sites that LTE goes live first. AlcaLu does it quite differently.

 

Robert via Samsung Galaxy Note 8.0 using Tapatalk

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain this.  I'm sure you have explained it many times before.  That makes perfect sense and it always bugged me, being that I'm in a Samsung market.

[jefbal99]

How about the flip side, a site is LTE only accepted, but the legacy antennas have been removed and only the NV antennas remain.  Is Sprint routing the 1x and EvDo via the old cabinets or are they removed as part of de-install?

[S4GRU]

How about the flip side, a site is LTE only accepted, but the legacy antennas have been removed and only the NV antennas remain.  Is Sprint routing the 1x and EvDo via the old cabinets or are they removed as part of de-install?

 

I have never seen this occur.  It's possible that the 3G acceptance was just missed by S4GRU.  PM me the site number and I will check it out.

 

Robert

[digiblur]

How about the flip side, a site is LTE only accepted, but the legacy antennas have been removed and only the NV antennas remain.  Is Sprint routing the 1x and EvDo via the old cabinets or are they removed as part of de-install?

 

I can't see them doing that as it would require more work than simply integrating the 3G side of things.  There would have to be some sort of special circumstance to go way out the way to get this accomplished.  From what I've seen in most cases is 4G, then 1X, then EVDO, then de-install legacy.  Of course you do have the ones that go 3G first due to backhaul issues.

[mrknowitall526]

If your site does not have LTE accepted, then most likely it is on legacy backhaul. And it probably was on legacy backhaul when it was hitting 1.6Mbps too.

 

When they do a full build site, they install the 3G and LTE equipment all at once. If it ends up only 3G accepted, 99% of the time it is because they did not have new high speed backhaul ready when the physical work was complete. So they could not test and accept the LTE side. So they at least tested and accepted the 3G side so the Contractor could be paid for their work.

 

But now you're wondering why it was faster initially. And why you assumed that new backhaul was in place. That's because the routers on the NV equipment can receive multiple backhaul sources, including multiple T1 lines. On a legacy site, the T1 lines for data and the T1 lines for voice were separate. So there may be 1 or 2 voice T1 lines and 1-4 data T1 lines on a legacy site.

 

But on an NV site, all the voice and T1 lines are plugged in together into the router, and all the sites bandwidth is managed in the router for voice and data combined. So if a 3G NV site doesn't have a lot of voice traffic, data speeds can go up significantly after an NV conversion, even without new backhaul installed.

 

And since QOS priority is given to voice in this setup, if voice needs go up, even temporarily, the data speeds go down accordingly. Also, another issue with this setup is that once 3G data users notice the speeds have gone up, they use it more.

 

So, to recap, NV sites with only 3G accepted almost always are on legacy T1 backhaul. And even gains in performance on 3G will be short lived until LTE and permanent backhaul arrive and are hooked up to the 3G side.

 

Robert via Samsung Galaxy Note 8.0 using Tapatalk

 

Thanks, that was really helpful!  About a month ago, I saw digging and all kinds of orange conduit all over the ground near where I know there's a fiber line.  A few days later, I was roaming for about a day and a half, and then it came back on and I was getting the 1.5+ speeds.  Then two weeks later was when it slowed down again, and has been ever since.  So, that's why I assumed that there was new backhaul in place.  I don't know how many T1's there are.

 

What should 3G speeds be like that have new backhaul installed?  >2.0 Mbps and up?  Sites that I assumed had new fiber backaul, I've seen get between 1.5 and 1.8 Mpbs...including a site that's now 3G/4G accepted and broadcasts LTE.

 

If crews dug lines and ran new fiber lines, what's the hold up in connecting them?  When I saw the digging, I saw crews working at the site for at least 2 days.  They were at the base, though, not near where the digging occurred.  I don't know if they were inside the fence, though, or not.

[leerage]

Thanks, that was really helpful!  About a month ago, I saw digging and all kinds of orange conduit all over the ground near where I know there's a fiber line.  A few days later, I was roaming for about a day and a half, and then it came back on and I was getting the 1.5+ speeds.  Then two weeks later was when it slowed down again, and has been ever since.  So, that's why I assumed that there was new backhaul in place.  I don't know how many T1's there are.

 

What should 3G speeds be like that have new backhaul installed?  >2.0 Mbps and up?  Sites that I assumed had new fiber backaul, I've seen get between 1.5 and 1.8 Mpbs...including a site that's now 3G/4G accepted and broadcasts LTE.

 

If crews dug lines and ran new fiber lines, what's the hold up in connecting them?  When I saw the digging, I saw crews working at the site for at least 2 days.  They were at the base, though, not near where the digging occurred.  I don't know if they were inside the fence, though, or not.

 

On an unburdened site with NV and new backhaul you should see as high as 2.5mbps and low ping.

 

Around my area with 3G/4G upgraded sites I see anywhere from 1 to 1.75 in the day with good pings.

[S4GRU]

What should 3G speeds be like that have new backhaul installed?  >2.0 Mbps and up?  Sites that I assumed had new fiber backaul, I've seen get between 1.5 and 1.8 Mpbs...including a site that's now 3G/4G accepted and broadcasts LTE.

 

The new backhaul will support the maximum 3G EVDO speed of 2.65Mbps, no problem.  As it is also the same backhaul that runs the LTE, which can handle 37.5Mbps speeds.  So after a NV site gets new backhaul, backhaul will no longer be a choke point for 3G ever again.

 

The determining factor for 3G performance then becomes the airlink saturation.  Sprint is targeting on 3G sites to maintain average performance of 1Mbps.  So a fully upgraded and functioning 3G site should run between 1Mbps and the maximum 2.65Mbps.  So Sprint will not go out to a site to add additional carriers (capacity) until the average performance of a sector drops below 1Mbps.

 

Sprint will not guarantee that 3G will never drop below 1Mbps ever on any sector, especially at peak times.  But Network Vision adds DO Advanced, which has great network controls and monitoring.  However, once the site starts underperforming their set requirements, they will schedule the appropriate capacity upgrade.  And now with SoftBank in control, they have made network performance a priority and providing ample capex budget and cash to do it.

 

Robert

[Paynefanbro]

The new backhaul will support the maximum 3G EVDO speed of 2.65Mbps, no problem.  As it is also the same backhaul that runs the LTE, which can handle 37.5Mbps speeds.  So after a NV site gets new backhaul, backhaul will no longer be a choke point for 3G ever again.

 

The determining factor for 3G performance then becomes the airlink saturation.  Sprint is targeting on 3G sites to maintain average performance of 1Mbps.  So a fully upgraded and functioning 3G site should run between 1Mbps and the maximum 2.65Mbps.  So Sprint will not go out to a site to add additional carriers (capacity) until the average performance of a sector drops below 1Mbps.

 

Sprint will not guarantee that 3G will never drop below 1Mbps ever on any sector, especially at peak times.  But Network Vision adds DO Advanced, which has great network controls and monitoring.  However, once the site starts underperforming their set requirements, they will schedule the appropriate capacity upgrade.  And now with SoftBank in control, they have made network performance a priority and providing ample capex budget and cash to do it.

 

Robert

 

After my tower got 4G accepted I often find my speeds above 1Mbps, even on 1-2bars of signal.

[jefbal99]

I have never seen this occur.  It's possible that the 3G acceptance was just missed by S4GRU.  PM me the site number and I will check it out.

 

Robert

 

 

I can't see them doing that as it would require more work than simply integrating the 3G side of things.  There would have to be some sort of special circumstance to go way out the way to get this accomplished.  From what I've seen in most cases is 4G, then 1X, then EVDO, then de-install legacy.  Of course you do have the ones that go 3G first due to backhaul issues.

 

Sorry for digging up an old thread, but I haven't been around much.  After driving by the site about 2 dozen times in the last two weeks, I've decided that the legacy antennas are still there and the Nextel stuff was removed.  The legacy panels are very thin and I thought they were a bracket on the end of the rack.

 

Robert, I'll still PM you the site for confirmation.

[mrknowitall526]

My 3G seems to be getting worse!  It's been over a month since my initial "glimpse" of what I thought was new 3G, but perhaps was just due to the T1's being linked together like you said.

 

Such a disappointment!

[TheForce627]

I'm having this same thing from a tower that is 4g accepted. Occasionally I'll turn LTE off to check 3G speeds and pings are in the 500s with speeds around .3-.7mbps

[Deval]

I'm having this same thing from a tower that is 4g accepted. Occasionally I'll turn LTE off to check 3G speeds and pings are in the 500s with speeds around .3-.7mbps

That may be a site which has 4G enabled but 3G hasn't been migrated.

 

What market are you in?

 

 

Sent from my Sprint iPad using Tapatalk HD

[TheForce627]

That may be a site which has 4G enabled but 3G hasn't been migrated.

 

What market are you in?

 

 

Sent from my Sprint iPad using Tapatalk HD

Dc. The site is 3g/4g accepted. Legacy panels removed

[Deval]

Dc. The site is 3g/4g accepted. Legacy panels removed

 

Interesting, that could be an issue with the site.

[TheForce627]

Interesting, that could be an issue with the site.

Just tried again. Low pings. Download speeds are low but there is a high school in my sector with 2200 students. Hopefully they add more capacity

[Deval]

Just tried again. Low pings. Download speeds are low but there is a high school in my sector with 2200 students. Hopefully they add more capacity

 

That explains it.