Network Vision/LTE - Chicago Market

[Vince]

Also, please note:

 

Keep the conversation to constructive criticism.

 

Constant whining and complaining is not tolerated.

 

It's clear that there are issues with the network at the moment. Make it known to Sprint. Everyday if you have to. But coming here and complaining everyday will not solve anything.

Isn't that what a forum is for? Discussing problems related to the network? We're here stating our problems, hoping that just one or a few of the many knowledgable members we have will jump in with a good answer as to why we have such a terrible data issue in this city.

[Fraydog]

Isn't that what a forum is for? Discussing problems related to the network? We're here stating our problems, hoping that just one or a few of the many knowledgable members we have will jump in with a good answer as to why we have such a terrible data issue in this city.

 

I'll say that the SNR is disturbing, but it could be something completely out of Sprint's control. My bet is on USCC towers going to hell right before shutdown. 

[drock2750]

I know that USCC is being shut down in waves, but do we know when Chicago specifically will go dark?

[Joeynach]

I'll say that the SNR is disturbing, but it could be something completely out of Sprint's control. My bet is on USCC towers going to hell right before shutdown. 

That's what I was getting at when I asked earlier are we sure the poor SNR values are a result of overcrowding of spectrum.  I mean it seemed logical and very Occam's Razor like solution, especially since we know without the other LTE bands being activated it was going to happen sooner or later.  However, probable cause and certainty are two different things.  We already have another theory out there that something in relation to the shut down of the USCC towers may be, for lack of better words, crapping all over Sprint's network.

[Vince]

Maybe I'm not educated enough in this category, but how would turning things off cause all this interference?

[Cubbiefan82]

I know that USCC is being shut down in waves, but do we know when Chicago specifically will go dark?

U.S. Cellular customers in St. Louis and Chicago don’t have switch over to a new carrier immediately, but it’s only a matter of time before their phones go dead. Sprint on Wednesday said it is setting a deadline of Oct. 31 to shut down U.S. Cellular’s towers in St. Louis. Chicagoans will get a few months reprieve: The network is scheduled to go dark in the Windy City on Jan. 31.

[lilotimz]

As i have said earlier. Both US Cellular AND Sprint are broadcasting the same exact frequencies at this very moment. Sprint sites are at low power and USCC sites are at normal power. What the plan calls for is for Sprint sites to go to full power on USCC sold spectrum at the same time USCC sites are going offline one by one. So at this very moment two networks are broadcasting the same exact spectrum. 

[Fraydog]

As i have said earlier. Both US Cellular AND Sprint are broadcasting the same exact frequencies at this very moment. Sprint sites are at low power and USCC sites are at normal power. What the plan calls for is for Sprint sites to go to full power on USCC sold spectrum at the same time USCC sites are going offline one by one. So at this very moment two networks are broadcasting the same exact spectrum.

Wouldn't that cause a lot of the SNR issues by doing this?

[lilotimz]

Wouldn't that cause a lot of the SNR issues by doing this?

A hell of a lot of interference if Sprint decides to turn up their sites to full power and adjacent USCC sites are still broadcasting as usual. But it's ericsson who's managing the network now after acceptance and their reputation are not the best after all... just ask digiblur and his favorite channel 100. 

[Fraydog]

A hell of a lot of interference if Sprint decides to turn up their sites to full power and adjacent USCC sites are still broadcasting as usual. But it's ericsson who's managing the network now after acceptance and their reputation are not the best after all... just ask digiblur and his favorite channel 100.

I don't blame him. Ericsson is outsourced Sprint operations though. If Ericsson is failing, then Sprint corporate in KC has to start reeling Ericsson in, and if that fails, to start with new long-term plans for managing the Nationwide Sprint Network.

 

I hope it isn't that bad because if it is...

[DsmIowaGuy]

Some interesting thoughts.  I was a long term S customer on my own phone then switched to USCC in August of 2010. I just couldn't take it anymore. The only regret I have had was that USCC announced in like a Month or so after that they had sold off Chicagoland. I was so pissed!  Only place I travel is in Iowa, Chicagoland and Milw.  I was there almost every Month until May and haven't been there since May. I will be there in a few weeks and dreading how bad it will be.  My work phone is Sprint and it was worse than my USCC phone (3g) in May.  

 

Seems odd to me how you could have two companies or competing transmitters broadcasting on the same frequency at the same time.  In my world (technology but not cellular) that wouldn't work well at all.

 

Guess I'll see what kind of disaster happens in a few weeks.

 

Many ways I am ready to come back to Sprint more just because it was what I had for years. However I can tell you that my phone and data is unbelievably good and no complaints with USCC.  I suppose someday I will come back but will be a while yet. Infact so far the 4g sites I have used on my Sprint phones are not even close to being as fast as USCC 4g which seems odd, the technology (in theory and on paper) from Sprint seems like about as good as you can get to me.

 

Time will tell !!   Good luck on getting things going over there guys. I look forward to trying an area with more 4g lit up now compared to the last time I was there in May.

[Joeynach]

As i have said earlier. Both US Cellular AND Sprint are broadcasting the same exact frequencies at this very moment. Sprint sites are at low power and USCC sites are at normal power. What the plan calls for is for Sprint sites to go to full power on USCC sold spectrum at the same time USCC sites are going offline one by one. So at this very moment two networks are broadcasting the same exact spectrum. 

Im confused, didn't FrayDog post the following image earlier today which shows the Freq breakout of the 1900 Mhz Band carriers.

 

Sprint:

5Mhz at 1865 - 1870

5Mhz at 1945-1950

 

USCC:

10Mhz 1870-1880

10Mhz 1950-1960

 

So how are they "broadcasting the same exact frequencies" here?  I just don't know that much about signals and such.

 

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u69/fraydog/ScreenShot2013-10-21at50445PM_zps97a926fa.png

[gnoj]

I don't remember where it was, but someone was talking about Sprint sites not broadcasting their physical location anymore, but some location a couple miles in front of the sector. There was some doubt in the room. I can confirm this has been happening in the DeKalb area for a few weeks now, possibly months. I can provide Signal Check Pro and Google Maps screen shots for documentation.

 

I've noticed this too on a few scattered sites in southern DuPage County. Not sure why they would take that step backward, since the offsets aren't necessary for tracing 911 calls anymore. However, the majority are still broadcasting their correct coordinates. I guess we'll see in the coming weeks if they switch them all back to the old method of having offsets once a crew returns to make further upgrades.

 

USCC should have already turned over half their spectrum, I can't see too many people on USCC still hanging around. 

 

USCC had 20 MHz and they haven't cleared 10 MHz? What? 

I don't know if I can blame that on Sprint, the incompetence of USCC (see their forums as evidence) might be what's coming into play. 

 

Remember iDEN? That network had plenty of customers hanging on to the bitter end. It may also be less of a headache to hand over all 20 MHz at once rather than doing it piecemeal.

 

As i have said earlier. Both US Cellular AND Sprint are broadcasting the same exact frequencies at this very moment. Sprint sites are at low power and USCC sites are at normal power. What the plan calls for is for Sprint sites to go to full power on USCC sold spectrum at the same time USCC sites are going offline one by one. So at this very moment two networks are broadcasting the same exact spectrum. 

 

I'm assuming Sprint is not broadcasting that spectrum at all from co-located sites? There are plenty of those, and even if the two carriers aren't on the same mast, they could still be very close to one another. It is not unusual to see 2-3 towers on the same property with all 7 carriers (including Clearwire) between them. On the face of it, the degree of precision in the RF calculations necessary to minimize interference coupled with the necessary coordination with USCC seems to be a handshake ripe for mistakes. Much simpler to wait until the January 31 shutdown and power it all up at once, I should think.  

 

 

So to summarize the last few posts, LTE speeds are suffering due to low SNR. There are 3 possible culprits identified so far:

 

1.) High data usage/lack of airlink capacity: Given how quickly the drop-off in speed occurred, this seems unlikely. However, it wouldn't hurt to convert more sites to be high-capacity, and come January deploy a second 5x5 LTE carrier on USCC's PCS B block, since nearly all current devices only support Band 25 for LTE.

 

2.) Interference from a mystery rogue device: Plausible, if only we had a clue what this device could be. The solution here would clearly be to immediately stop selling said device and offer customers a quick and painless exchange (ideally on the device OEM's dime).

 

3.) Interference from neighboring USCC sites: Not sure how much this should effect Sprint's LTE since it's a few MHz away on the G block, but if it is the source of all the extra noise I would think 1x and Ev-DO would also be affected? Either way, I'm not sure I trust Ericsson to pull off such a transition without some major hiccups, so they probably ought to power down or eliminate in certain spots their use of the B block spectrum for the meantime.

 

All but the first possibility should be able to be quickly rectified, as long as Sprint is aware of the problem. If there really is a lack of capacity, it will unfortunately be a little while yet before we all see the benefits of load balancing between the three LTE bands.

[Joeynach]

I've noticed this too on a few scattered sites in southern DuPage County. Not sure why they would take that step backward, since the offsets aren't necessary for tracing 911 calls anymore. However, the majority are still broadcasting their correct coordinates. I guess we'll see in the coming weeks if they switch them all back to the old method of having offsets once a crew returns to make further upgrades.

 

 

Remember iDEN? That network had plenty of customers hanging on to the bitter end. It may also be less of a headache to hand over all 20 MHz at once rather than doing it piecemeal.

 

 

I'm assuming Sprint is not broadcasting that spectrum at all from co-located sites? There are plenty of those, and even if the two carriers aren't on the same mast, they could still be very close to one another. It is not unusual to see 2-3 towers on the same property with all 7 carriers (including Clearwire) between them. On the face of it, the degree of precision in the RF calculations necessary to minimize interference coupled with the necessary coordination with USCC seems to be a handshake ripe for mistakes. Much simpler to wait until the January 31 shutdown and power it all up at once, I should think.  

 

 

So to summarize the last few posts, LTE speeds are suffering due to low SNR. There are 3 possible culprits identified so far:

 

1.) High data usage/lack of airlink capacity: Given how quickly the drop-off in speed occurred, this seems unlikely. However, it wouldn't hurt to convert more sites to be high-capacity, and come January deploy a second 5x5 LTE carrier on USCC's PCS B block, since nearly all current devices only support Band 25 for LTE.

 

2.) Interference from a mystery rogue device: Plausible, if only we had a clue what this device could be. The solution here would clearly be to immediately stop selling said device and offer customers a quick and painless exchange (ideally on the device OEM's dime).

 

3.) Interference from neighboring USCC sites: Not sure how much this should effect Sprint's LTE since it's a few MHz away on the G block, but if it is the source of all the extra noise I would think 1x and Ev-DO would also be affected? Either way, I'm not sure I trust Ericsson to pull off such a transition without some major hiccups, so they probably ought to power down or eliminate in certain spots their use of the B block spectrum for the meantime.

 

All but the first possibility should be able to be quickly rectified, as long as Sprint is aware of the problem. If there really is a lack of capacity, it will unfortunately be a little while yet before we all see the benefits of load balancing between the three LTE bands.

Awesome post, thanks for the clear summary.  And I have been assured a couple times that Sprint has documented the problem and kicked it up to their tech engineers at least.  So far nothing has happened in terms of acknowledgment or rectification in Sprint's end though.

[mhammett]

I've noticed this too on a few scattered sites in southern DuPage County. Not sure why they would take that step backward, since the offsets aren't necessary for tracing 911 calls anymore. However, the majority are still broadcasting their correct coordinates. I guess we'll see in the coming weeks if they switch them all back to the old method of having offsets once a crew returns to make further upgrades.

 

I've noticed in Kane County, some sites have the tower, some have the alternate locations. No rhyme or reason that I can see. The Kane County sites are all 3G/4G on the map. Some have Clear colocated, some do not, but they don't follow the ones doing the alternate locations.

[DsmIowaGuy]

I've noticed this too on a few scattered sites in southern DuPage County. Not sure why they would take that step backward, since the offsets aren't necessary for tracing 911 calls anymore. However, the majority are still broadcasting their correct coordinates. I guess we'll see in the coming weeks if they switch them all back to the old method of having offsets once a crew returns to make further upgrades.

 

 

Remember iDEN? That network had plenty of customers hanging on to the bitter end. It may also be less of a headache to hand over all 20 MHz at once rather than doing it piecemeal.

 

 

I'm assuming Sprint is not broadcasting that spectrum at all from co-located sites? There are plenty of those, and even if the two carriers aren't on the same mast, they could still be very close to one another. It is not unusual to see 2-3 towers on the same property with all 7 carriers (including Clearwire) between them. On the face of it, the degree of precision in the RF calculations necessary to minimize interference coupled with the necessary coordination with USCC seems to be a handshake ripe for mistakes. Much simpler to wait until the January 31 shutdown and power it all up at once, I should think.  

 

 

So to summarize the last few posts, LTE speeds are suffering due to low SNR. There are 3 possible culprits identified so far:

 

1.) High data usage/lack of airlink capacity: Given how quickly the drop-off in speed occurred, this seems unlikely. However, it wouldn't hurt to convert more sites to be high-capacity, and come January deploy a second 5x5 LTE carrier on USCC's PCS B block, since nearly all current devices only support Band 25 for LTE.

 

2.) Interference from a mystery rogue device: Plausible, if only we had a clue what this device could be. The solution here would clearly be to immediately stop selling said device and offer customers a quick and painless exchange (ideally on the device OEM's dime).

 

3.) Interference from neighboring USCC sites: Not sure how much this should effect Sprint's LTE since it's a few MHz away on the G block, but if it is the source of all the extra noise I would think 1x and Ev-DO would also be affected? Either way, I'm not sure I trust Ericsson to pull off such a transition without some major hiccups, so they probably ought to power down or eliminate in certain spots their use of the B block spectrum for the meantime.

 

All but the first possibility should be able to be quickly rectified, as long as Sprint is aware of the problem. If there really is a lack of capacity, it will unfortunately be a little while yet before we all see the benefits of load balancing between the three LTE bands.

 

Very interesting!   Thanks for posting

[Joeynach]

3.) Interference from neighboring USCC sites: Not sure how much this should effect Sprint's LTE since it's a few MHz away on the G block, but if it is the source of all the extra noise I would think 1x and Ev-DO would also be affected? Either way, I'm not sure I trust Ericsson to pull off such a transition without some major hiccups, so they probably ought to power down or eliminate in certain spots their use of the B block spectrum for the meantime.

 

.

So given the opinion of many that there are and will be significant hold outs on the USCC shut down in Chicago, another used referenced those who held onto iDEN until the last moment, that means the theory of powering down some of the USCC sites on the B spectrum is probably out of the question.  Powering down, essentially pulls the plug, and Sprint has said they will keep service active until 1/31/14.  Could mean the interference is here to stay until at least then, which is unacceptable to me, but I certainly understand it.  Hope were wrong, and its not the interference from USCC sites, but something else Sprint can rectify as soon as humanly possible, pulled 39K download speed on LTE today at the Merchandise Mart with an LTE tower literally ontop of me....hooray!

[Cubbiefan82]

So given the opinion of many that there are and will be significant hold outs on the USCC shut down in Chicago, another used referenced those who held onto iDEN until the last moment, that means the theory of powering down some of the USCC sites on the B spectrum is probably out of the question.  Powering down, essentially pulls the plug, and Sprint has said they will keep service active until 1/31/15.  Could mean the interference is here to stay until at least then, which is unacceptable to me, but I certainly understand it.  Hope were wrong, and its not the interference from USCC sites, but something else Sprint can rectify as soon as humanly possible, pulled 39K download speed on LTE today at the Merchandise Mart with an LTE literally ontop of me....hooray!

Check your date? I am not sure if u meant to put 1/31/15 or meant 1/31/2014. We only got three months until the uscc shutdown finally

[Joeynach]

Check your date? I am not sure if u meant to put 1/31/15 or meant 1/31/2014. We only got three months until the uscc shutdown finally

Ha, thats what I meant, Jan 31, 2014.

[Joeynach]

 

3.) Interference from neighboring USCC sites: Not sure how much this should effect Sprint's LTE since it's a few MHz away on the G block, but if it is the source of all the extra noise I would think 1x and Ev-DO would also be affected? Either way, I'm not sure I trust Ericsson to pull off such a transition without some major hiccups, so they probably ought to power down or eliminate in certain spots their use of the B block spectrum for the meantime.

 

All but the first possibility should be able to be quickly rectified, as long as Sprint is aware of the problem. If there really is a lack of capacity, it will unfortunately be a little while yet before we all see the benefits of load balancing between the three LTE bands.

Would the interference from neighboring USCC sites theory also cause the eHRPD network to experience poor SNR and thus reduced data speeds?  Or would it just be isolated to LTE connections?

[chgoguy80]

I know many here say people do not use their phones as phones much, but is there any hope that call continuity will get better? I can get a call out (but I assume its a handoff isssues) are worse than before NV on major streets and expressways. It's not acceptable to have 2 loss of signals call drops on 20-30 minute driving calls, right? fyi, definitely my side since other side is always a landline.

 

Specific example coming in on I-290 into city from Elmhurst area, 2 dropped calls on a 25 minute call. Also 20 minute call, coming east on Peterson and onto Lake shore Dr, 2 dropped calls. By now given the stats on NV status for Chicago you would think we should be beyond the old equip/new equip handoff thing that happeneded at the beginning on voicecalls? At least on expressways? For those that talk alot while driving, anyone else having dropped call issues similar to mine on 290 into the city or elsewhere driving in the city?

 

Also, echoing others data problems, took the El last week from Addison into downtown and data was basically useless on the red/brown line (for non-Chicago folks its elevated not an underground subway) almost the whole way in. Complete failure to load a couple simple webpages not just slow.

[tongboy]

I know many here say people do not use their phones as phones much, but is there any hope that call continuity will get better? I can get a call out (but I assume its a handoff isssues) are worse than before NV on major streets and expressways. It's not acceptable to have 2 loss of signals call drops on 20-30 minute driving calls, right? fyi, definitely my side since other side is always a landline.

 

Specific example coming in on I-290 into city from Elmhurst area, 2 dropped calls on a 25 minute call. Also 20 minute call, coming east on Peterson and onto Lake shore Dr, 2 dropped calls. By now given the stats on NV status for Chicago you would think we should be beyond the old equip/new equip handoff thing that happeneded at the beginning on voicecalls? At least on expressways? For those that talk alot while driving, anyone else having dropped call issues similar to mine on 290 into the city or elsewhere driving in the city?

 

Also, echoing others data problems, took the El last week from Addison into downtown and data was basically useless on the red/brown line (for non-Chicago folks its elevated not an underground subway) almost the whole way in. Complete failure to load a couple simple webpages not just slow.

Is it always roughly the same place you drop the calls?

[Vince]

I drive a semi in Chicago every night. Sometimes carrying on long phone calls with my girlfriend. My calls never drop. Phone calls is the one thing I praise sprint for.

[mhammett]

DeKalb/Sycamore has taken a turn for the worse the past few days. LTE (where it exists) with good signal and SNR does maybe three megs. EHRPD does no better than dialup. Voice quality up from the handset is junk.

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk
 

[Joeynach]

Also, echoing others data problems, took the El last week from Addison into downtown and data was basically useless on the red/brown line (for non-Chicago folks its elevated not an underground subway) almost the whole way in. Complete failure to load a couple simple webpages not just slow.

This is what I have been speaking about, look at the last few pages of posts.  We think we found an issue.  My LTE data speeds have crashed over the last 4 weeks.  I get a near zero SNR value with strong LTE signal strength and resulting dial up like download speeds, day and night.  Its been this way since Sept, I don't know what happened, there has been much speculation on this board, but those shiny new LTE speeds in the 3-12MB range are gone, haven't seen em in months.  And I take a similar route as you do everyday on the Brown Line, Addision (Wrigley) to downtown and I get nothing but the same nowadays.  We haven't figured it out yet, some people have guessed it has to do with spectrum shortage, essentially overcapacity network, others think interferences from US Cellular site hand-offs, yet others some sort of 3rd party disturbance.  We just don't know.