Powerline Networking (question on it's use)

[jonathanm1978]

Ok, I've done all sorts of things with routers...and still love learning things when I can..and I became a member of some beta groups in order to play with new toys before they hit the market... So when I got accepted into a beta for a {NAME OF COMPANY} Powerline Adapter beta, I was excited, but afraid since I didn't have much experience with those. I know the adapters use your existing electrical wiring to create a "backplane" and uses that as your network to put internet to places where it's otherwise inefficient to run cat5 or wireless wont reach.

 

So I've had them for about 3 days...and in that time, I've totally confused myself even more, probably more to do with the beta version of the firmware.

 

At first, I had this:

 

2nd DSL line ===> Asus RT-N15 Gbit ====>PL #1(source)....

 

I came to my desktop with the 2nd PL, and wanted to give my desktop internet via the Asus RT-N15...

To do this, I had to unplug my Buffalo router and plug in the PL #2, then I plugged the Buffalo back in to the filtered AC jack on  PL #2...

 

Buffalo isn't tied to 2nd DSL line at all...it does PPPoE for 1st DSL line, has the Airave 2.5, wife's PS3, Toshiba TV, "Hopperjunk",  and the Netgear WNDR3400 that I use in conjunction with a WNR2000v2 with DD-WRT to make a repeater. So rule out the Netgear WNDR3400 and Netgear WNR2000..they aren't really "used", and all of this is on DSL line 1 anyway.

 

So, everything was doing OK...the Asus RT-N15 has gigabit ports (until now I didn't realize that I only have 1 router with gigabit...I'm not sure on the Ubiquiti Airrouter, but I think it's just 10/100...but I realized I need to have a router sale and get rid of the (unused) Belkin I have, the (unused) Linksys e2400..barely touched the Ubiquiti Nano Loco M and it's sitting in a drawer now...

 

At any rate, so I'm doing good with the connection...it appears to work fine from my desktop when I access the internet...and I started running Lan Speed test and putting it to the test...

Suddenly, my ps3 in the bedroom, which is also connected to the Asus with a cat5, wont let me join any games. It was online, showed my friends, and even let me chat in the lobby while waiting on a game. But soon as I would try to join, it would dump me back to the main screen. So i figured it was a fluke, and changed back from using the Asus to using the Ubiquiti - which performs the PPPoE to the (whatever AT&T's wireless $100 gimmick is to make people sign a contract now, it's a black router with all the wireless and junk, which I turned off promptly at receiving it)....

Soon as I got back up with the Ubi router and the PS3 changed back to it's previous settings for that router, all was good again.

So I just left it that way and when I finished playing, I started LAN speed test again.

 

This time, since I wasn't using the PS3, I figured I would do a 1gb file test, across the powerline, and see how that did.

The Buffalo, which is plugged into the filtered AC on the PL giving my desktop access from the Ubi+DSL #2 suddenly lost it's connection.

And for the life of me, I couldn't get it connected back until I unplugged the Buffalo from the filtered AC outlet and plugged it back in normal, as it was before the PL adapter was introduced to the scene.

 

I bet I confused a bunch of folks...but I have two DSL lines, the one with the Ubi router operates my PS3 in my bedroom, Vonage, Roku3 in the bedroom,  and my GS3's when we are within range of it.

 

The DSL line with the Buffalo operates the Airave, wife's PS3, desktop, Toshiba Smart TV, an "entertainment device" that I'm beta testing (it streams stuff like Netflix, Hulu+, Vudu, etc)...I can't say the name of it either since it's still in beta and I'm under the NDA for it..

 

 

[CAREND]

Now with powerline adapters, the one thing i've noticed is that they need to be within the same electrical circuit.  Going outside of say a room that is fused together at a junction with a room that has the powerline adapter will work best. 

Also, just remember that powerline adapters are just extensions.  you are just extending on port of the router to another device that is a distance away from the source. 

 

This goes back to the adapters being in the same circuit.  As for DSL, i'm not sure how that works, but as long as you are using the power adapter after the router to the device, nothing should change.

 

I could be wrong, and if I am someone will correct it.

[DaQue]

IMHO

 

Power line internet is evil.

 

AC wiring was never intended to carry broadband data. 

[jonathanm1978]

You know they have the tech to deliver internet via power lines, but the telecom put a hush on it because it's more than what they can do with their copper and cable...or it was, I'm not sure how fast it could get, but it was on up there...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadband_over_power_lines

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4

 

 

[jonathanm1978]

Heck I even got a smart meter on my home, and they quit coming out to read meter usage personally about 2 years ago. Now they do it with computer from the office nearest my home.

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4

 

 

[mozamcrew]

You know they have the tech to deliver internet via power lines, but the telecom put a hush on it because it's more than what they can do with their copper and cable...or it was, I'm not sure how fast it could get, but it was on up there...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadband_over_power_lines

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4

I thought the amateur radio guys killed it because of interference?

[bigsnake49]

You guys are confusing powerline networking over the wiring in the home (HomePlug 1.0, HomePlug AV, AV2 and IEEE 1901) and broadband over powerlines (BPL). Those are two completely different efforts. Something tells me automated meter reading is not not done over the powerline. Southern Co employs Itron's Fixed Network to collect data wirelessly.

 

http://www.intelligentutility.com/article/06/04/southern-company-deploys-itrons-fixed-network-and-centron-solid-state-meters-atlanta-georgia

 

BPL is dead in the US because of interference with amateur radio.

Edited August 30, 2013 by bigsnake49

[MrZorbatron]

You know they have the tech to deliver internet via power lines, but the telecom put a hush on it because it's more than what they can do with their copper and cable...or it was, I'm not sure how fast it could get, but it was on up there...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadband_over_power_lines

 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4

Incorrect.  At short/medium distance, they can hit speeds comparable to previous generation cable (DOC 2.x) or previous generation DSL (ADSL2), but ADSL2+ and any flavor of VDSL clobbers it.  Power line broadband also causes horrendous radio interference despite claims by vendors to have minimized it.  At long distance, it works at only a few hundred kilobits per second and is used for monitoring power transmission network health and operational conditions.

 

This is a different, though semi-related, technology to what is used in household homeplug systems.

[MrZorbatron]

You guys are confusing powerline networking over the wiring in the home (HomePlug 1.0, HomePlug AV, AV2 and IEEE 1901) and broadband over powerlines (BPL). Those are two completely different efforts. Something tells me automated meter reading is not not done over the powerline. Southern Co employs Itron's Fixed Network to collect data wirelessly.

 

http://www.intelligentutility.com/article/06/04/southern-company-deploys-itrons-fixed-network-and-centron-solid-state-meters-atlanta-georgia

 

BPL is dead in the US because of interference with amateur radio.

In some markets, meter reading is done over the power line, but at very low (kHz) frequencies, and with maximum data rates around 100 kbps.  In other markets, a radio device is used to send the signal to a car that drives by.  Increasingly rarely, a system utilizing a phone line is employed.

 

BPL is dead yes for this reason.

[Bob Newhart]

I use Zyxel powerline networking, works quite well most of the time.

Their 500 Mbps product, gives me about 40 Mbps to a separate building.

 

What is the question?

If you have a question about your network setup, draw a diagram to help us understand.

[jonathanm1978]

Joe, I'm using (supposedly) 600mbps rated PLA's...they are new, and unreleased, so I can't detail much on them. The questions I ask will have to be broad, general....but, I noticed that when I try to use it, there are 3 lights on each PLA.

Light 1 is supposed to blink when you first plug it in, then it should stay lit after a few seconds. Then, you plug in PLA 2, and the light blinks a few seconds..then goes steady. Once the lights are steady green on both, you press the security button on PLA1, for two seconds, and it will start making light #2 blink. Then go to the PLA2 within 2 minutes and press the security button for two seconds also...and when they both stop blinking, the security is set.

Then, you plug in your router to PLA1, and your device that needs internet into PLA2.

The 3rd light is a sign of the speeds...green means you have 100+mbps between them....amber means you have between 50mbps and 80mbps, and red means you have less than 50mbps.

 

I couldn't get them to even factory reset, using the button that is recessed, like you would find on a router.

 

I got an email this morning saying they have found some issues and are addressing it now in their lab, and by next week on Monday, we'll have an update to the software plus the firmware will be pushed...

Maybe this will fix those issues, until then, I have a red light on the one beside the router, and the one feeding my Toshiba TV is amber...

And the network tool designed to see these PLA's says that I have 60mbps and 10mbps between them as connection speeds....

 

Supposedly, this particular one uses the neutral to create it's backplane network...so data travels on the neutral leg.

I know in some places, they hook up the 2 insulated wires, and the copper, uninsulated ground is not used (which I despise)..

But before I inherited this house, I had a "step-parent" that loved to take shortcuts..and he just "thought" he was an electrician.

I've found a couple of outlets in here that he didn't connect the copper ground on, and only used the "hot" and "neutral"...or white and black...usually he would just cut the copper off.

I hate that people do that, if they only knew how dangerous it is to have electricity problems...

 

This same step-parent, when the house was bricked up, he was too lazy to buy new triplex and run from the meter to the inside...so what did he do? He went and bought some copper screw-type clamp and cut ALL THREE lines of the triplex...used these clamps to put them back together once the footing was poured and some of the brick was laid...

I found it when the neutral on the meter wore out due to a loose ground, and i had to replace the entire box...

I was like...WTH is wrong with this man...he could've burned this house down. Thanks to his half-assed attempt at clamping together triplex, my central air unit burned out, and I lost my stove and water heater...and we had to leave because the power had to be turned off at the meter until the power co could come out and pull my meter...

 

This is an example of what he used to "mend" the triplex...then taped it with electrical tape and buried it...

Guess I'm lucky I found it before it caught something on fire.

I actually have a picture of it, and I also took a picture of the inside breaker box before I replaced it (which this problem also burned it out too, the aluminum was almost a copper/bronze color from the dang heat in the electricity)

 

I said all that to say this: My electrical outlets may not be the most dependable for PLA testing...I know which ones IVE personally done and fixed right...so I may have to use those so I know for sure I"m getting the copper ground like I should be, since it's used to create the network/data transfer.

[Bob Newhart]

Even when I put the power line adapters on the same dual socket, the max speed the software application told me was around 200 Mbps. On the same circuit in the same room about 12 ft apart, it dropped to just over 100 Mbps.

 

600Mbps or 500Mbps just isn't going to happen, ever.

 

50 Mbps is enough to stream anything in the house.

 

I'm the only house on the transformer in my yard.

 

I found going to a good wireless network is a little more reliable, I use Ubiquiti Unfi in my house for most connections. Only use powerline when I have to.

[DaQue]

In some markets, meter reading is done over the power line, but at very low (kHz) frequencies, and with maximum data rates around 100 kbps.  In other markets, a radio device is used to send the signal to a car that drives by.  Increasingly rarely, a system utilizing a phone line is employed.

 

BPL is dead yes for this reason.

One company used 15 baud, yes  baud not kilobaud. 4 60 hz power cycles for one measly bit.

[MrZorbatron]

One company used 15 baud, yes  baud not kilobaud. 4 60 hz power cycles for one measly bit.

Yeah but that's for extreme distances over high tension transmission lines.  It is used to monitor loading and otherwise keep tabs on the health of the system.  Among other things, this allows lines that are near capacity to have some loads decreased and redirected in order to save money.

[DaQue]

The system I was referring to is used to read meters mostly. I PM'd some details. 

[bigsnake49]

Even when I put the power line adapters on the same dual socket, the max speed the software application told me was around 200 Mbps. On the same circuit in the same room about 12 ft apart, it dropped to just over 100 Mbps.

 

600Mbps or 500Mbps just isn't going to happen, ever.

 

50 Mbps is enough to stream anything in the house.

 

I'm the only house on the transformer in my yard.

 

I found going to a good wireless network is a little more reliable, I use Ubiquiti Unfi in my house for most connections. Only use powerline when I have to.

 

I have a mixed Homeplug AV/Wireless network throughout my condo. It's a Faraday cage with metal framing. I could have also used MOCA to extend, except the bathroom does not have an outlet and my wife spends a lot of time in the bathroom and needs WiFi in there. It was the only way to extend WiFi.