Future 600 MHz band & OTHER discussion thread (was "Sprint + 600 MHz?")

[Bob Newhart]

Verizon is building out in Alaska now, very rural there. The two local overpriced companies there have joined up to compete. Good news up there.

[maximus1987/lou99]

What about this: TMUS and Sprint jointly buy 20-30MHz of 600MHz auction and build out to 300mil+?

FCC and DOJ would certainly be ok with it; T+VZW will whine.

 

That way, they can share costs+risks and they won't be at a constant advertising disadvantage regarding rural coverage.

TMUS would definitely benefit more from this arrangement - it has no sub 1GHz - but Sprint still benefit: having 600 MHz means capacity on their 2x5 LTE 800 (or less) wouldn't become an issue until much later. So, more time until they need to deploy LTE 1900, if ever, and the associated closer tower spacing. Of course, at this point it becomes necessary to get some actuaries to see which is more expensive: more 600 MHz or more PCS-spaced towers?

 

Since, as is (probably) true, Softbank cares about deriving ROI from the high-capacity 2.5GHz band, they might not look at 600MHz sharing as a competitive concession. Rural ROI is low but not having rural coverage means constant advertising ding.

 

Hopefully, Softbank doesn't make the same mistake as Deutsche Telekom and only build out super-dense network for cities+suburbs, ignoring rurals, and assume that if it works in Japan - where population density is CRAZY high just like Germany​ - it'll work here. If they try that, they'll get clobbered by T+VZW but I hope Softbank will have learned from DT's mistake and listen to Hesse's advice.

[maximus1987/lou99]

Verizon is building out in Alaska now, very rural there. The two local overpriced companies there have joined up to compete. Good news up there.

 

ATT is also already active there with LTE, right?

 

I always wondered: are ATT+VZW building LTE in AK for ROI or for advertising points?

[maximus1987/lou99]

 

We don't have details of the 800 FIT there.

Robert via Nexus 7 with Tapatalk HD

 

What's "FIT"?

[trox1971]

What's "FIT"?

 

Field IntegrationTesting

Edited May 15, 2013 by trox1971

[maximus1987/lou99]

Does anyone have an article that states when 600 MHz will actually be cleared and ready for use?

[Bob Newhart]

ATT is also already active there with LTE, right?

 

I always wondered: are ATT+VZW building LTE in AK for ROI or for advertising points?

 

AT&T is there with LTE in a few cities.

ACS and GCI are working together now.

 

Verizon is working with local rural operators, like they have done in the lower 48.

http://www.rcrwireless.com/article/20130423/carriers/verizon-wireless-expands-lte-rural-america-program-alaska/

 

The cell companies make money from providing subsidised cell service to low income or rural households. I know Sprint makes a lot from providing services in Hawaii, it could be the same in Alaska, I don't know, just a guess.

[Fraydog]

It seems T-Mobile/MetroPCS have rather abundant PCS/AWS holdings now, and I think MetroPCS had one 700mhz A Block license in Boston, is their any chance that T-Metro can get in anything in the 700 range? or cellular 850? I mean if T-Metro had anything sub-1Ghz pre-2017 they+resurgent Sprint would really force the big two to compete.

 

Maybe if the FCC made AT&T and Verizon divest the Cellular B band in areas where one of those carriers had both A and B like AT&T through most of Texas, for example. The problem is VZW would do anything to outbid T-Mobile in those areas.

[jefbal99]

 

Maybe if the FCC made AT&T and Verizon divest the Cellular B band in areas where one of those carriers had both A and B like AT&T through most of Texas' date=' for example. The problem is VZW would do anything to outbid T-Mobile in those areas.[/quote']

 

then Sprint or T-Mobile could bid on those 850 licenses at a discount...

 

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Forum Runner

[maximus1987/lou99]

then Sprint or T-Mobile could bid on those 850 licenses at a discount...

 

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Forum Runner

 

T-Mobile getting 850 MHz licenses would be golden!

GSM iPhone (secretly) supports LTE in Band 5 and of course it supports HSPA+42 in that band also; very flexible.

[jefbal99]

T-Mobile getting 850 MHz licenses would be golden!

GSM iPhone (secretly) supports LTE in Band 5 and of course it supports HSPA+42 in that band also; very flexible.

 

If T-Mobile were to get any 850 spectrum, I think they would roll out WCDMA to expand/improve their voice coverage

[maximus1987/lou99]

 

If T-Mobile were to get any 850 spectrum, I think they would roll out WCDMA to expand/improve their voice coverage

 

That's what HSPA is, right?

I'm not too sure.

[WiWavelength]

T-Mobile getting 850 MHz licenses would be golden!

GSM iPhone (secretly) supports LTE in Band 5 and of course it supports HSPA+42 in that band also; very flexible.

 

T-Mobile already has a Cellular 850 MHz license for one CMA -- Myrtle Beach, SC -- that it inherited in its acquisition of SunCom properties.

 

But the further Cellular 850 MHz acquisition proposed here would have very restricted scope. The CMAs where AT&T (e.g. Dallas-Fort Worth, San Antonio, Miami) or VZW (e.g. Phoenix, Cleveland, Charlotte) holds both Cellular 850 MHz licenses are anomalies, are limited to a handful of urban areas. And T-Mobile already has substantial network coverage in those urban areas. Rural areas where T-Mobile could really benefit from Cellular 850 MHz would be unavailable, as those CMAs have separate license holders.

 

Not to mention, Cellular 850 MHz deployment might be infeasible for T-Mobile. Most T-Mobile sectors are running three panels: two modernized and one legacy. There is currently little, if any room remaining for a sub 1 GHz panel.

 

AJ

[maximus1987/lou99]

 

 

Not to mention, Cellular 850 MHz deployment might be infeasible for T-Mobile. Most T-Mobile sectors are running three panels: two modernized and one legacy. There is currently little, if any room remaining for a sub 1 GHz panel.

 

AJ

 

Can you post a link to a tutorial on sectors and panels?

[maximus1987/lou99]

 

T-Mobile already has a Cellular 850 MHz license for one CMA -- Myrtle Beach, SC -- that it inherited in its acquisition of SunCom properties.

 

But the further Cellular 850 MHz acquisition proposed here would have very restricted scope. The CMAs where AT&T (e.g. Dallas-Fort Worth, San Antonio, Miami) or VZW (e.g. Phoenix, Cleveland, Charlotte) holds both Cellular 850 MHz licenses are anomalies, are limited to a handful of urban areas. And T-Mobile already has substantial network coverage in those urban areas. Rural areas where T-Mobile could really benefit from Cellular 850 MHz would be unavailable, as those CMAs have separate license holders.

 

Not to mention, Cellular 850 MHz deployment might be infeasible for T-Mobile. Most T-Mobile sectors are running three panels: two modernized and one legacy. There is currently little, if any room remaining for a sub 1 GHz panel.

 

AJ

 

A mod posted, somewhere, a proposed rebranding of 850 band to make room for a third 850 license; happen to know where that post is?

 

Also, what are the technical and political hurdles to getting that done?

[WiWavelength]

A mod posted, somewhere, a proposed rebranding of 850 band to make room for a third 850 license; happen to know where that post is?

 

Yep, that was me. Using my username, I am certain that you could find the post via search.

 

Also, what are the technical and political hurdles to getting that done?

 

Numerous. If Cellular 850 MHz reconfiguration happens -- and that is unlikely -- it is years away, maybe by 2020. Regardless, you will have to wait to read my proposal submitted to the FCC.

 

AJ

[jefbal99]

T-Mobile already has a Cellular 850 MHz license for one CMA -- Myrtle Beach, SC -- that it inherited in its acquisition of SunCom properties.

 

But the further Cellular 850 MHz acquisition proposed here would have very restricted scope. The CMAs where AT&T (e.g. Dallas-Fort Worth, San Antonio, Miami) or VZW (e.g. Phoenix, Cleveland, Charlotte) holds both Cellular 850 MHz licenses are anomalies, are limited to a handful of urban areas. And T-Mobile already has substantial network coverage in those urban areas. Rural areas where T-Mobile could really benefit from Cellular 850 MHz would be unavailable, as those CMAs have separate license holders.

 

Not to mention, Cellular 850 MHz deployment might be infeasible for T-Mobile. Most T-Mobile sectors are running three panels: two modernized and one legacy. There is currently little, if any room remaining for a sub 1 GHz panel.

 

AJ

 

I thought VZW had both sides of the Cellular licenses in Michigan and many former Alltel territories after that terrible buyout.

[WiWavelength]

I thought VZW had both sides of the Cellular licenses in Michigan and many former Alltel territories after that terrible buyout.

 

VZW does, but Grand Rapids, Lansing, and Saginaw are all top 100 CMAs, supporting my point that allowing T-Mobile to acquire one of the two Cellular 850 MHz licenses in the affected CMAs would do relatively little to help its coverage.

 

AJ

[jefbal99]

VZW does, but Grand Rapids, Lansing, and Saginaw are all top 100 CMAs, supporting my point that allowing T-Mobile to acquire one of the two Cellular 850 MHz licenses in the affected CMAs would do relatively little to help its coverage.

 

AJ

 

Wouldn't the 850 license help them in the rural areas outside of GR, Lansing, and Saginaw?!?!? There are many areas where T-Mobile either roams or is 2G that would be native coverage with coverage from 850. Plus it would be much easier to upgrade their existing 2G coverage.

 

I would love Sprint to get an 850 license in Grand Rapids as the network there was built by iPCS and the tower spacing is at the absolute limits, so you get out of the city and coverage is beyond spotty! I know that SMR is coming, but that would take another new device, while all the existing devices support 850 for CDMA/EVDO.

[WiWavelength]

Wouldn't the 850 license help them in the rural areas outside of GR, Lansing, and Saginaw?!?!? There are many areas where T-Mobile either roams or is 2G that would be native coverage with coverage from 850. Plus it would be much easier to upgrade their existing 2G coverage.

 

That area of Michigan is one where T-Mobile already has fairly extensive geographic coverage. So, no, Cellular 850 MHz licenses would not help T-Mobile a great deal.

 

Additionally, unlike other Cellular 850 MHz transactions, the one proposed here would be limited to spectrum. It would not come with an existing network because VZW has long since integrated the desired infrastructure from the Alltel network into its own. So, T-Mobile would be responsible for building out its own Cellular 850 MHz network, beholden to FCC geographic coverage requirements, and that really would not fit T-Mobile's strategy.

 

AJ

[jefbal99]

That area of Michigan is one where T-Mobile already has fairly extensive geographic coverage. So, no, Cellular 850 MHz licenses would not help T-Mobile a great deal.

 

Additionally, unlike other Cellular 850 MHz transactions, the one proposed here would be limited to spectrum. It would not come with an existing network because VZW has long since integrated the desired infrastructure from the Alltel network into its own. So, T-Mobile would be responsible for building out its own Cellular 850 MHz network, beholden to FCC geographic coverage requirements, and that really would not fit T-Mobile's strategy.

 

AJ

 

You are saying, hypothetically, if Verizon had to divest an 850 license in say Lansing and TMobile picks it up. They go every tower with their current AWS Spectrum/HSPA+ on the urban borders and every 3rd tower in the urban area. Then toss up an antenna that supports 850 (if their new LTE antennas don't), they wouldn't have better coverage on the outer edge of the urban into rural area? Then they go to their rural towers and put up an antenna that supports 850 and even if its just 2G/Edge or WCDMA, that wouldn't increase their native coverage and improve service? Also decrease their roaming bill too...

 

I know we are into a lot of what ifs here, but how is that not a positive for T-Mobile and their users?

[S4GRU]

In my area Tmo has decent rural EDGE coverage with good spacing. The problem around here is not the frequency used in rural areas, it is that it is EDGE only. Although in Santa Fe and ABQ, Tmo does need more density or lower frequency. Tmo is unusable indoors around here more than a half mile from the site.

 

Robert via Samsung Note II via Tapatalk

 

 

[strumgewr]

Does t-mo and at&t deploy RRU'S on the tower for HSPA+ at all? Or only for LTE?

[Fraydog]

Does t-mo and at&t deploy RRU'S on the tower for HSPA+ at all? Or only for LTE?

 

In my neck of the woods, AT&T only uses RRU's for their 700 MHz LTE antennas. It could be different per region. T-Mobile uses either Ericsson AIR panels or Flexi radios by the antenna. AT&T's RRU's here look like Sprint RRU's out west, which makes sense since Alcatel-Lucent is AT&T's vendor in this area.

[maximus1987/lou99]

Both Sprint and T-Mobile would benefit from 600 MHz, T-Mobile far more so, due to awesome coverage for relatively low capex i.e. the towers. However, extensive rural coverage is more of a necessity in marketing than an actual need, most of the time, and is definitely not the business focus for neither TMUS nor S: TMUS has the huge AWS+PCS holdings and S has huge 2.5GHz.

 

However, as we all know from "there's a map for that", commercials are effective.

 

So, would it make sense for TMUS+S to jointly bid for 10-20MHz and share the associated capacity and costs?

 

Sprint could take care of the actual build-out while TMUS would pay Sprint to be an MVNO on the 600MHz for when one of their subscriber wanders off AWS+PCS coverage.

 

If they buy 20MHz then, assuming the blocks are in multiples of 10MHz, some years down the road, if the relationship becomes less than amicable, they can make a clean break.

 

If they buy 10MHz, they'll get along by necessity. Also, you could say "that's not enough for the both of them" but I'm talking about the rural areas where most of the time, the tower is - I'm assuming - mostly very underutilized.

 

Since TMUS doesn't have sub 1GHz for voice, then they'd have to use VoLTE (assuming 600MHz will only be LTE) but how much does VoLTE even take per person? If there's a location where TMUS or S has a "spike" in traffic, then they'll put up a tower using their own non-600MHz and capacity problem solved.