Volaris Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 Now that 4x4 MIMO phones are coming to the market, will these phones also double peak speeds on Sprint's 8T8R band 41 locations? It'd be cool if Sprint can get 4x4 MIMO on band 25/26, too. It could potentially boost capacity from the current ~37 Mbps for 5MHz to ~74 Mbps, or even up to ~99 Mbps with 256 QAM's 33% efficiency gain. T-Mobile is sticking two 4x4 MIMO LTE bands (2 and 4) in one panel, so I'm hoping there's a possibility that Sprint can stick 4x4 MIMO band 25/26 in one panel to allow quick swap upgrades on congested towers where new towers or small cells may not be the best fit. Might even be cheaper since this would just be a one time equipment upgrade cost vs never-ending lease for a new small cell or tower. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefbal99 Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 For some reason, I didn't think anyone was working on 4x4 MIMO for phones as it wouldn't fit in a hand held device. Maybe it was Robert or AJ, but I don't remember the specific thread. Something about the devices needing to be tablet sized to fit the antennas and amps. Besides the e-Penis, 4x4MIMO in a phone isn't going to really solve any problems. If a cell is already overloaded, there is no benefit to the user in the short term. It sounds like new antennas and additional backhaul would be needed to make this into a feasible solution. With Fiber backhaul, Sprint should be able to get that turned up easy enough, but I don't see them wanting to do a rip and replace on the NV1.0 antennas for B25/26 LTE. The NV2.0 B41 antennas were 8T8R, not sure if they'd support 4x4 MIMO from a device. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAvirani Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 Besides the e-Penis, 4x4MIMO in a phone isn't going to really solve any problems. If a cell is already overloaded, there is no benefit to the user in the short term. 4x4 MIMO will double the capacity on a channel if I remember correctly so it will definitely resolve some problems. Imagine peak speeds of 74mbps on B26... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefbal99 Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 4x4 MIMO will double the capacity on a channel if I remember correctly so it will definitely resolve some problems. Imagine peak speeds of 74mbps on B26... That would only be on a under utilized site, if the site is over capacity, there is no help there. I get around 10mb/s peak from Sprint and have never run into issues streaming, etc. While those huge numbers are great for bragging/marketing, what do you need that kind of throughput on your phone for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAvirani Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 That would only be on a under utilized site, if the site is over capacity, there is no help there. I get around 10mb/s peak from Sprint and have never run into issues streaming, etc. While those huge numbers are great for bragging/marketing, what do you need that kind of throughput on your phone for? B26 edge of cell - it'd be so much better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jefbal99 Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 B26 edge of cell - it'd be so much better... Being in central Michigan, very little B26 has been deployed due to the Canadian border. I'm not saying there isn't a benefit to having the 4x4MIMO, but to get there is very costly and I'm not sure that Sprint will invest in that type of an upgrade in the near term. Long term it makes great sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilotimz Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 There will be no 4x4 on sub 1 GHz frequencies. Size restrictions. Also there's no confirmation that the note 7 is 4x4 capable hardware wise and certainly has not been advertised by samsung or any of the carriers. Lastly, no carrier equipment for any vendor on any of the big 4 has been certified for 256QAM. In addition, neither Note 7 or s7/7e was certified for 64QAM upload. Sprint 8t8r 2.5 equipment can support 4x4 MIMO given UE support. Sprint PCS equipment may support 4x4 MIMO but will require new radios and antenna sets operating in single mode operations other than dual mode. See Ericsson land with the 4x2 MIMO deployments. Sent from my Nexus 5X 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAvirani Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 There will be no 4x4 on sub 1 GHz frequencies. Size restrictions. Also there's no confirmation that the note 7 is 4x4 capable hardware wise and certainly has not been advertised by samsung or any of the carriers. Lastly, no carrier equipment for any vendor on any of the big 4 has been certified for 256QAM. In addition, neither Note 7 or s7/7e was certified for 64QAM upload. Sprint 8t8r 2.5 equipment can support 4x4 MIMO given UE support. Sprint PCS equipment may support 4x4 MIMO but will require new radios and antenna sets operating in single mode operations other than dual mode. See Ericsson land with the 4x2 MIMO deployments. Sent from my Nexus 5X I'm in Ericsson land right now and my iPhone's engineering screen reports 4 transmit antennae for B26. Are you sure there is no 4x4 below 1ghz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilotimz Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 I'm in Ericsson land right now and my iPhone's engineering screen reports 4 transmit antennae for B26. Are you sure there is no 4x4 below 1ghz? Tell me how you're going to do 4Tx 4Rx with 2T2R 800 MHz radios and hex port (2 low + 4 mid) antenna panels. Also iPhone field test mode is abandonware so it's not completely trustworthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAvirani Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 Tell me how you're going to do 4Tx 4Rx with 2T2R 800 MHz radios and hex port (2 low + 4 mid) antenna panels. Also iPhone field test mode is abandonware so it's not completely trustworthy. Maybe double antennae and RRUs? Not really sure...it is possible that there was a glitch in my engineering screen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilotimz Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 Maybe double antennae and RRUs? Not really sure...it is possible that there was a glitch in my engineering screen...No. Ericsson rrus11 b26 is not 4x4 capable, samsung cr4 b26 is not 4x4 capable, and alu branded kmw b26 is not 4x4 capable. Sent from my Nexus 5X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAvirani Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 No. Ericsson rrus11 b26 is not 4x4 capable, samsung cr4 b26 is not 4x4 capable, and alu branded kmw b26 is not 4x4 capable. Sent from my Nexus 5X Ok probably just an engineering screen glitch then. Thanks for the clarification! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volaris Posted August 14, 2016 Author Share Posted August 14, 2016 There will be no 4x4 on sub 1 GHz frequencies. Size restrictions. Also there's no confirmation that the note 7 is 4x4 capable hardware wise and certainly has not been advertised by samsung or any of the carriers. Lastly, no carrier equipment for any vendor on any of the big 4 has been certified for 256QAM. In addition, neither Note 7 or s7/7e was certified for 64QAM upload. Sprint 8t8r 2.5 equipment can support 4x4 MIMO given UE support. Sprint PCS equipment may support 4x4 MIMO but will require new radios and antenna sets operating in single mode operations other than dual mode. See Ericsson land with the 4x2 MIMO deployments. Sent from my Nexus 5X Great to hear that band 41 8T8R is 4x4 MIMO ready. For 800MHz, do you mean size restrictions at the tower or the device? If at the tower, can they just add an additional panel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilotimz Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Great to hear that band 41 8T8R is 4x4 MIMO ready. For 800MHz, do you mean size restrictions at the tower or the device? If at the tower, can they just add an additional panel? UE primarily but a bit on eNB as there are hardly any commercially available 4T4R sub 1 ghz radios (required for 4xN MIMO). Similar reason as to why you can't use carrier aggregation between two sub 1 ghz LTE bands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeuten Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 There will be no 4x4 on sub 1 GHz frequencies. Size restrictions. This is plain wrong. T-Mobile already has it deployed. One particular sighting left us in absolute awe. At the Times Square T-Mobile Flagship store in Times Square, we’ve observed 4 Transmit (and receive) antennas on three active LTE channels, including the low-band! We aren’t aware of any other operator in the world, or a single capable device that could utilize 4 spatial streams on a low band just yet, but it goes to show how technologically ahead of the curve T-Mobile LTE network is, and how bullish they are when it comes to network efficiency and execution. Article from Milan Milanovic. http://cellularinsights.com/state-of-lte-advanced/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilotimz Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 This is plain wrong. T-Mobile already has it deployed. Article from Milan Milanovic. http://cellularinsights.com/state-of-lte-advanced/ Show me where 4x4 MIMO is done on the UE for sub 1 GHz. Not 4x2 which is what Milan purportedly discovered. We aren’t aware of any other operator in the world, or a single capable device that could utilize 4 spatial streams on a low band just yet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnwk Posted September 8, 2016 Share Posted September 8, 2016 One question, what's the difference between 8T8R and 8x8 MIMO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banananuts87 Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 One question, what's the difference between 8T8R and 8x8 MIMO? Same thing. The panels are capable of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tengen31 Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 One of the s4gru members told me sprint has plans for it on band 41 and, 25. Band 26 they do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAvirani Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 Something interesting I learned today - Verizon has 4x2 MIMO on their B13 rolled out in Seattle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilotimz Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 Something interesting I learned today - Verizon has 4x2 MIMO on their B13 rolled out in Seattle.Got some evidence? Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAvirani Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 Got some evidence? Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk So I was talking to one of the engineers converting a clear site today and Verizon came up as the topic of discussion. He told me that a few weeks back, the company he worked for had just finished up VZW's 4x2 MIMO upgrade for bands 13, 4 and 2. I have noticed a new very large antenna added to Verizon sites in the past few months so it definitely seems plausible. I have a VZW MiFi hotspot from work but I don't believe that its debug web pages will disclose any information of benefit although I may be wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilotimz Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 So I was talking to one of the engineers converting a clear site today and Verizon came up as the topic of discussion. He told me that a few weeks back, the company he worked for had just finished up VZW's 4x2 MIMO upgrade for bands 13, 4 and 2. I have noticed a new very large antenna added to Verizon sites in the past few months so it definitely seems plausible. I have a VZW MiFi hotspot from work but I don't believe that its debug web pages will disclose any information of benefit although I may be wrong...So... Just something you heard from a tower worker..... Hmm... Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAvirani Posted September 25, 2016 Share Posted September 25, 2016 So... Just something you heard from a tower worker..... Hmm... Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk I mean I don't know how much more credible a source can be than the guy who puts up and tests the actual panels… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tajustin95 Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 I hope Sprint turns on 256 qam with the 8t8r roll out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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