S4GRU

So, help me understand...

Will the tri-band, single radio phones ever be able to do simultaneous voice and data? If so, are we talking several years out? Using the phone as a hotspot is an important capability for me and I need it to not kill the data connection if a call or text comes in.

Sprint's Triband LTE devices do not support simultaneous voice and data. It is physically impossible with current technology to do so with a single transmission path. Sprint is counting on that people would prefer to have a competitively priced smartphone with better battery life and LTE performance than simulatenous voice and data.

Otherwise, Sprint would need to work with OEM's to create a dual path device that supports TDD-LTE. It is possible. But the resulting device would be more expensive than their carrier counterparts and miss the battery savings and better LTE performance with weaker signals.

Sprint is betting the farm that SVLTE is not a big deal for its customers. We will see how this pans out. And as people use voice less and less, it may become a non issue. I personally rarely use voice anymore except to talk to old people, like my parents. I don't even talk to my boss on the phone hardly ever.

Simultaneous voice and data will likely return to Sprint smartphones with VoLTE. Which is probably at least 18 months out.

Robert

This may be a stupid question but is there a way to manually disable two of the bands on the triband phones to pick up the signal better while waiting for things to get resolved, or is it just a waiting game?

The other bands are not active by default. The issue is not because of other bands, it is because CDMA and LTE use the same transmission path. They cannot run together at the same time. CSFB is required on the network in order for these devices to work properly.

Robert

I have created a post in a thread over in the S4GRU Forums that helps explain what is being encountered at certain types of markets:  http://s4gru.com/index.php?/topic/5001-breaking-band-tri-band-lte-ecsfb-issues-thread/?p=237461

Robert

Just donated now.  I'll check out the maps when I get set up as a sponser.  I'll try to contribute to the MKE area maps if possible.

You have been upgraded.  Thanks for supporting S4GRU.

Robert

If you are a sponsor you should be checking the NV Complete maps on a regular basis to see if LTE towers around you have been upgraded.  At this point you should be looking for yellow color markers in the NV Complete maps because you are in a non-incumbent market and need both NV 3G and 4G to be accepted in order for towers in MKE to get LTE.

Also note that some incumbent markets are having issues with CSFB.  And more work is needed on the network side for CSFB to fully operate correctly.  That's why I specifically omitted the description of incumbent and non-incumbent from the article.  It is not a perfect indicator.  

But incumbent markets (where the legacy OEM and Network Vision OEM are the same) should be fixed sooner than non-incumbent markets.  Some have been fixed already.

Robert

I agree with your assessment.  The hard part for me is the Milwaukee area doesn't have LTE  officially, how will I know my G2 will work once MKE is officially declared LTE 4G?

 

And thanks for your write up and responses!!!  Very informative and well organized article.

Sprint says they will not likely launch markets any longer until the LTE sites in that market largely support CSFB.  So this should not be an issue for you.  And Sprint Triband LTE devices will even be able to use LTE sites around MKE early before launch when the complete LTE sites become capable of using CSFB on the Sprint network.

Robert

Just a reminder to everyone. The rules for comments are the same as the forums. We will not allow this thread to become a bastion for people to bash Sprint. If you have questions, or comments that will further the dialog of the issue at hand, feel free to post them. If you are not a S4GRU member, but wanting to join just to post a Sprint bashing comment, I wouldn't bother signing up.

S4GRU is a site of wireless enthusiasts (and member sponsored) who come together to have meaningful discussions about wireless network technology and devices. Uncritical negativity just distracts a from meaningful dialog that our members appreciate.

If you want a place to go air your grievances about Sprint, there are dozens of places to go complain online, including Sprint's official forums. We do not host Sprint complaints.

Robert

Did Sprint realize this before they released the triband phones? Did they just not care? I think it could be deemed false advertising if they knew beforehand. Selling a LTE phone they know won't work?

 

If I lived in a LTE market and had a working LTE before buying a triband phone, I'd be pretty pissed. It seems Sprint just keeps shooting itself in the foot.

 

Unfortunately, I live in the Milwaukee area which only has unofficial LTE. My G2 cannot connect.

Yes, Sprint knew about it in advance. They have been scrambling to get the upgrades done with their OEM's. And it's likely why they put off releasing Triband devices until Google started selling theirs. They have upgraded thousands of sites to CSFB in the past few months and that aggressive roll out continues. Unfortunately, there is no easy way out except to get CSFB operational on the 3G side of every active LTE site.

Sprint cares, but Network Vision is behind schedule. They had a choice. Delay the devices until CSFB was active everywhere or hurt the experience for early adopters of Triband devices. They tried a hybrid...delay the devices as long as feasible.

As noted in the article, the number of sites impacted will dwindle every day until none are impacted in a few months.

Those who are pissed have options. Sprint allows a device to be returned within 14 days of activation. Early adopters who cannot bear waiting for CSFB to be active in their LTE coverage area can return their devices and go along their merry way. No need to feel forced into a situation when you have options.

Robert

Interesting. Is this an issue with all tri-band phones? I see very little info in the article itself about the S4 Mini, the Mega, and the One MAX, and the headline calls out two LG devices...

Yes, this is an issue of all Triband devices, as they are dependent on CSFB to be present on the Sprint network in order to be able to use LTE. The article specifically calls out the G2 and N5 because those are the devices that people are currently having problems with and will be searching for.

The problem is not Triband LTE devices, but rather that the Sprint network is not currently upgraded enough in all places that currently have LTE.

Robert

Does the the iPhone 5 (and the 5S too I assume) use CSFB? You sure as heck can't do SVLTE on them, but they don't seem to have the same problem as the Triband smartphones.

The iPhones are neither Triband nor SVLTE. They are capable of using CFSB,and use that feature on WCDMA networks. However, they do not use CSFB on the Sprint network as far as I know. But please understand that CSFB is not a device feature, but rather a network feature. It's just that a device transmission path design would necessitate its use.

The iPhone 5S and 5C are only dual band LTE on the Sprint network. But that probably explains why Apple chose to omot the third band and go the route of their devices using CSFB on the Sprint network.

The new iPhones are the same as the older single band iPhone 5 on the Sprint network, just with one more additional LTE band. They do not support SVLTE. I do not have enough understanding of Apple devices to explain why.

Robert

One thing I don't understand is I don't think my Note 2 has 2 data paths and no simultaneous voice and data but I connect just fine to a tower in a Ericsson market that is both 3G and 4G accepted and the triband phone users in my area drop LTE anywhere near it.

 

Thanks for the article Robert, as always great job.

Your Note 2 does have SVLTE, with two separated transmission paths for LTE and CDMA. You may be thinking of SVDO, which is simulatenous voice and EVDO (3G) data. Which the Note 2 does not have.

Robert

Will this allow more reliability with calls and texts? What I mean is often I get texts late or calls won't even chine through although I'm next to a NV site. I'm wondering if this would help any.

Possibly. We will have to see how it performs in the real world on the Sprint network.

Robert

This statement is a joke, right?

Not really.  To a Sprint network enthusiast, bands supported would be more important than having the latest computing power and RAM.  The specs of the Mega are more than sufficient for 98% of users.  Most of us want Band 26 for in-building and far distance performance and Band 41 for high capacity and higher speeds.

I bet S4GRU Members would choose the Sprint variant of the Mega over the GN3 by 2:1.  The general public could be a different story.

Robert

It will truly be a shame if they thought enough to make a mid-range tri-band handset but didn't think enough to actually do that for the Note 3.

The issue here must be timing.  The Note 3 probably was set in stone too early for it to be Triband.  Whereas the Mega is already an existing phone that they are just going back and adding Sprint bands to for their network.  And it didn't have a hard release date to hit like the GN3.  That's my two cents.

Robert

Oh, and not sure if you realize but the Mega 6.3 was already announced by Sprint (just in case you didn't): http://newsroom.sprint.com/news-releases/sprint-to-bring-unlimited-data-experience-to-samsung-galaxy-mega.htm.

Yeah, the news here is not that it exists or that it's coming to Sprint.  The news here is that it is Triband LTE for Sprint (B25, B26, B41).  That was not known until this afternoon.  And to contrast that to the Note 3 as being only on one LTE band for Sprint, and you have the making of a drama for Sprint nerds.

Robert

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9242370/New_iPhones_don_t_support_Sprint_s_new_TD_LTE_add_on_network

The Sprint Executive actually did not mention 800 mhz LTE on the 5S or 5C almost like either he didn't know it supports it or it does not support it and we are wrong.

Or he didn't want to draw attention to the media that Sprint has multiple LTE bands, and it is missing one of them. I would have not discussed it either. Sprint needs iPhone sales to be robust. They cannot take a chance on the narrative about their new iPhones are missing something. It was a wise decision to skip that point at this time.

Also, we are not wrong. Apple says they support Band 26 in the 5c and 5S.

Robert

What about galaxy note 3 , looks like same problem like 5s.

Actually, it is worse.  The Sprint Samsung GN3 is single band.  I wouldn't recommend anyone buy a Sprint Note 3, unless they also got a Triband LTE hotspot to go with it.  It's just crazy to buy a single band LTE device right now.  To miss out on two years of two other bands is just unconscionable.  Especially since one of those bands provides building penetration/distance, and the other provides much faster speeds.

Robert

It will take longer in a market like San Diego because they will need additional cell sites to do an adequate 2600 overlay. They will need to get permits, run fiber, etc. 2600 on existing sites will not provide enough coverage to make it an appealing user experience. Additionally, Clear did not have enough protection sites here to make a difference. I stand by my statement that it will take longer to cover San Diego in 2600 than 1900.

I stand behind mine too.  When LTE 2600 is added to every Network Vision site in San Diego, most of San Diego will have it.  And it will be in 100's of places you will go.  And since you will transition seamlessly between 2600 and 1900, it doesn't really matter about the places where it isn't.  But all the places where it is, you won't be using it until you upgrade to a Triband device.

Yes, it will be even better when they start filling in between sites too with additional TD-LTE 2600 sites.  That will be great.  But to say you don't want any TD-LTE 2600 at all until you can get it absolutely everywhere is absurd.  I have used LTE 2600 in Denver.  And it only covers about 50% of the metro area at this very moment.  But where you get it, you're glad you do.  Because it equals or bests the averages of AT&T and VZW LTE.  And even with a miserably weak LTE 2600 signal, I still would get 7-20Mbps.

Robert

It’s been just around the corner or within weeks for many years now and still NO LTE IN PHOENIX...  Again and Again we have been told it's coming just wait a little longer.  When Sprint finally completed their buy out of Clearwire we were going to get it moved up... then when they merged with Softbank everything was going to be fast tracked...  Then we were told that since we waited so long we were going to get the new "advanced LTE" but still NOTHING.  AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile all have great LTE networks up and running in Phoenix... Guess it really is time to quit believing in fairy tales...  All 5 of my business phones are out of here when the contract is up next month...

You are free to go.  We won't stop you.  But there are already a dozen Sprint LTE sites live in Phoenix and more going live every day or two.

http://sensorly.com/fullscreen/map/4G/US/USA/Sprint/lte_310sprint#q=phoenix,arizona

Robert

To me, the lack of 2600 is not a cause for concern.  I don't even live in a city which has existing Wimax 2600.  The fact that the 7th generation iPhone will have 800smr LTE support is going to entice me to stay as a Sprint customer.  I'm excited about having rural LTE coverage that is on par with Verizon and AT&T's and also the in-building penetration of 850mhz.  Keep 2600 as an option for those people with Mi-Fis and portable hotspots, let them eat up that 2600 service because in most cases it wouldn't be accessible to me anyway.

I agree that if I had to choose between Band 41 and 26, I would choose 26.  And no Band 41 support is fine in the short term.  But as it starts to become widespread mid contract and pushing Sprint average LTE speeds in 30-60Mbps range, it will become more frustrating not to have it.  

However, since the iPhone holds its value so well, you can just sell it and upgrade to the iPhone 6 mid contract for full cash price.  It will likely support Band 41.

Robert

We probably won't have band 41 in Most of San Diego for a few years. I have less than a month left on my iPhone 4S contract and LTE is still pretty scarce in this area. I imagine the band 41 buildout will take as long or longer than the LTE 1900.

Longer? How do you figure? It will be way faster. They just have to add a panel and a carrier card. Everything else will be there from the original Network Vision upgrade. It will be more like Tmo's upgrade...just an overlay.

And now with SoftBank money and the fact that wireless crews should be a little less busy next year than this year, the Band 41 overlay should take less than 12 months start to finish on existing Network Vision sites.

Also, Sprint will have the existing WiMax sites with a complete LTE Band 41 overlay complete in Spring 2014. So there will be a lot of Band 41 coverage that will be missed during the contract life of this device. But a supplemental Triband hotspot is not that expensive if one is ever needed/desired.

Robert

Jeffas332,

 

Just received a real-life 4G signal for the first time at Wick Park here in Milwaukee.  Once I got out of the valley it was gone, but it was there, and it was fast.  

Deployment is active throughout the Milwaukee market.  More and more sites will go live every week.  You can go to our forums and follow along with our other Milwaukee members here:  http://s4gru.com/index.php?/topic/1983-network-visionlte-milwaukee-market-including-madison/?view=getnewpost

Robert

S4GRU - Where do you get your information? 119 sites installed? Wouldnt Sprint be more proactive at letting it's Customers know these details if it were true? In past posts you've said.... late 2012, early 2013 -  I'm very sceptial of your postings.

We provide information from sources within Sprint.  If you were a S4GRU Sponsor member, you would have access to site maps that would show you which sites have upgrades.  You could then even go check them out yourself.

We do provide this thread for non-sponsors:  http://s4gru.com/index.php?/topic/212-network-visionlte-deployment-running-list/page-4&do=findComment&comment=145628

It shows that as of the end of May, 18% of sites had received upgrades. If Phoenix were a Samsung or an Ericsson market, you would already have started seeing some LTE signals around Phoenix.  However, your market is an Alcatel Lucent market.  A/L waits until they have a lot of sites upgraded, and then starts bringing LTE live when they have a good backlog of sites to keep their LTE techs consistently busy.

The Phoenix market is just about to that threshold when A/L will start firing up the LTE side of upgrades.  There will be live LTE soon in the Phoenix market.  As for the delay, Sprint is behind schedule.  They started a few months late.  What can I say?  I'm not deploying the stuff.  But even Sprint has said their Network Vision upgrades are running between 3 - 6 months behind.

Robert

It has been more than 60 days since your comment on Mar 14.  Is there any LTE service in Phoenix yet?  The Sprint website says no.

No, no service live, yet.  119 sites have had equipment installed.  It should be any time now that the first ones should start going live.  It may even be this week.  

Robert

Two sites are live with LTE now east of Parsippany. More will be added every few days. S4GRU Sponsors have access to maps that show which sites have been completed. For more info on how to become a S4GRU Sponsor, you can check out this link: http://s4gru.com/index.php?/topic/1195-information-about-s4gru-sponsorship-levels-and-how-to-become-a-sponsor/

Robert