red_dog007

When will all of PCS go towards LTE? I know the 3G shutdown is far into the future, but they still could refarm the rest of it.

My friend has been traveling around and was running into capacity issues on LTE.  I turn LTE off when this happens and tend to get the 2Mbps on EVDO since no one is on it anymore.  So I suggested he do the same so he could at least get a little internet.  Well, there was no EVDO waiting for him, but just 1x.  I know the CDMA shutdown is near for consumers so this makes sense.  This makes me think that even their B5 is at a full 10x10 now and they are just running on a single 1x carrier.  

Sprint has there sliver of 1x 800MHz.  Even though Sprints 3G shutdown is far into the future, refarming all of PCS for LTE could give them a nice boost.  Though I guess they need to get all compatible phones enabled for VoLTE first.  

Was thinking about this.  

Sprints 2.5GHz really is gold, even vs 100s of MHz of mmWave.  

Im not sure the TDD config on mmWave and Im also not sure what speeds 5G is expected to have over LTE, so I am using LTE known speeds and config 1.? So bare with me on these rough estimates. ~115Mbps at 20MHz carrier.  So VZW is 115Mbps x5 (for 100MHz) x 9 (for 900MHz) mmWave is 2x2 MIMO.   So theoretical maximum would be ~5.2Gbps. *However, current Snagdragon X50/55 only do 8xCA on mmWave (4.6Gbps).

Sprint 2.5GHz is 32x32MIMO on 40/60MHz is ~3.7/5.5Gbps capacity.

So Sprint will be limited on the device side due to 4x4 MIMO.  But capacity wise, Sprint is ready to take on mmWave with the massive mimo gear they are deploying. 

19 hours ago, RAvirani said:

If my memory serves me correctly, Sprint deployed seven 9-beam fast-roll-off antennas at the stadium. This is 126 (9 beams * 2 tx/rx rows per antenna * 7 antennas) times the capacity of an average site and comes without the interference/SNR concerns we have in the real world. Don't forget that capacity was supplemented by other basic COWs and macros which covered the parking lots and other areas around the stadium. The super bowl is absolutely NOT a model for Sprint's performance across the rest of the network. 

This is exactly the point I'm making. Sprint needs to address upload speed problems, not download speed problems. 45x15 doesn't do that. 20x20+15 MHz TDD or even 20x35 would be a much better addition to Sprint's spectrum portfolio. 

Imagine Sprint's current DSS setup (40-60 MHz N2500 + 3x20 MHz L2500) aggregated with an additional 35 MHz of NR uplink. Now that would be a hell of a network. 

2x is live nationwide. 3x is not deployed, but there aren't any devices that support it, so it doesn't really matter. 

The Snapdragon 855 has the X24 modem which does support 3xCA UL.  Are the phones not coming out of the FCC with full support?

The speed problems are solved just by having a larger dedicated channel at lower frequency for supplemental UL.  Having 15MHz at 1695-1710 solves that. Maybe could even use it to increase the range of B41/N41?

Im not saying 35MHz UL would be bad or anything or not for 35MHz UL.  But people don't UL as much as they think they do.  Facetime, Duo, Skype, etc don't use as much data as people think they do.  Sprint's UL is not at capacity. This is why UL on the other carriers FDD has plenty of speed behind it, even with the DL is slammed.  The low speeds are a connection/time issue which on Sprint gives huge inconsistencies.  15MHz easily solves the low speeds, gives plenty of additional capacity and fixes consistency issues within B41/N41 coverage area. 

But considering the DL capacity that is now available on these new massive mimo sites... what is another 20MHz. 

But if Dish keeps this stuff to build out their network, they totally want all of AWS4 for DL. 

Im working here with bands that already exist.  AWS3 UL only exists in B70.  If you went B23, 15MHz AWS3 gets orphaned off as B66 does not cover that range.  Making it TDD would not be a good idea either because then the FCC and those adjacent will want guard bands, especially next to AWS1 UL.    It also won't solve the issue that Sprint has with TDD unless a configuration is picked that makes most the airtime for UL. But then you are still wasting a lot of airtime for DL that isn't needed.

On 9/8/2019 at 7:05 AM, RAvirani said:

Sprint's UL on L2500 is slammed right now. How else could they have the fastest download speeds and the lowest speed score in many cities across the country according to RootMetrics?

Speeds like these are unfortunately common on L2500:

Don't forget, a 9 megabit pipe can be fully consumed by a few people facetiming or live-streaming. And those kind of things are becoming more and more popular.

The Super Bowl is probably the worst example you could have picked to make this point. Sprint had a DAS and several multibeam antennas deployed across the stadium and surrounding areas. This type of high-capacity setup is most definitely the exception, not the norm. 

How often do you speedtest lower download than upload on Sprint? I'd guess almost never. But how often is the downlink stable while the uplink is unusable? At least in my experience traveling across the country, its's quite often. Most large studies/online reviews tend to agree as well.

If you already have excess downlink capacity when in mid/high band coverage areas while the uplink is struggling, why ignore the problem when you have a chance to solve it?

Superbowl is a great example.  No matter how much technology they deploy, they are at a huge UL disadvantage reguardless. If just a few people can max out a 9Mbps UL, then 65,000 people should easily be able to kill Sprint's UL capacity.  This did not happen. 

What I find in my testing is B41 really needs a very good signal to pull in at least ok uplink speeds.  I might be able to pull in 30~70Mbps DL but my signal isn't really that great so the UL suffers hardcore.  A lot of times I'll just get 0.01Mbps on Speedtest.  But if I can get close to the tower and get a nice clear signal I will be at 4~9Mbps.  So my original 0.01Mbps is not a result of congestion. 

It's the same effect of say a 5MHz DL channel.  Close to the tower you get 22Mbps DL, back up some and now you get 2~5Mbps.  Same thing is happening on B41 but in the other direction and more pronounced due to lack of UL air time. 

Has Sprint even enabled 2xCA and 3xCA UL yet?

On 9/6/2019 at 3:16 PM, RAvirani said:

That is also possible, but that will just exacerbate Sprint's poor upload problem. You would be adding 45x15 to Sprint's spectrum portfolio. That's a 3:1 ratio, but it will perform closer you a 6:1 or 7:1 ratio speed-wise (FDD UL tops out at about half FDD DL, and this problem will be exaggerated by higher order downlink MIMO). This is the problem with L2500 all over again. I'm not saying a 15 MHz UL carrier is anything to frown at, but with 2500 already favoring downloads, I'd much prefer a symmetrical setup.

B70+B66 also closes the door on PCS H+G+C DSS which may be possible (someone more familiar with power limit regulations/interference potential can likely chime in with a definitive answer here). 

I do not see a need to be concerned about upload.  15MHz is loads of upload.  I work for an ISP and it's always between 8:1 and 10:1 ratio when every subscriber has symmetrical internet.

If upload was an issue we would see Sprint's UL slammed on B41 right now. The poor speeds come from not having the best of signal.  But even at the last superbowl, Sprint doing speedtests around the stadium with solid signal they were still pulling in 2~3Mbps.  When real world best you can get is generally just 9Mbps.  If UL is an issue you'd expect UL to be practically 0.

18 minutes ago, RAvirani said:

Band 70 is a hodgepodge of three different bands:

• 15 MHz of AWS-3 (1695-1710)

• 10 MHz PCS H Block (1915-1920, 1995-2000)

• 40 MHz of AWS-4 (2000-2020, 2180-2200)

The downlink is PCS H DL+AWS-4 UL and the uplink is AWS-3. This effectively wastes 25 MHz of spectrum (PCS H UL and AWS-4 DL). 

I would much prefer 20x20 B23 and TDD or UL-only AWS-3. If PCS H block NR can be deployed alongside PCS G and possibly PCS C with DSS, I'd welcome that too, although I'm not sure if that would be possible due to interference concerns. PCS H DL cannot sit directly next AWS-4 UL. But, even if the PCS H block was abandoned, it's better to waste 10 MHz than 25 MHz. 

B70 25x15 (using all 1995-2020) and then CA that with B66 2180-2200.  Don't need an UL carrier on the second or higher carrier.  

Then you just waste 5MHz on the PCS-H UL.  

On 9/4/2019 at 2:30 AM, RAvirani said:

Dish has very clearly expressed that they want to do something with their spectrum. Buildout deadlines have passed and been extended. They likely will not be extended again.

T-Mobile isn't as interested in smaller chunks of low/midband spectrum as they already have enough. What they need is large swaths of highband for NR. This is probably their biggest motivation for the merger. Dish can’t help them there.

AT&T has more spectrum than they can put on air, and isn't looking for more. They have B14 and B66 that hasn't been deployed across half, if not more of the nation.

Verizon has repeatedly stated that they are perfectly happy with their current low/midband spectrum holdings. If they wanted to bid on 600 MHz spectrum, they could and would have. 

This leaves Sprint, who I think could benefit a lot from Dish's spectrum holdings. 

Dish paid a premium for PCS H to extended the buildout deadlines of 700/AWS4.  Money talks.  Might be able to come to another agreement, especially if Dish is putting forth good faith and getting their protection site network built out.

TMobile would like more spectrum sure, but I think it is so much more than that.  If VZW is comfortable with their position and twice the customers, TMobile should be able to do well.  No other carrier than Sprit has huge chunk of midband for NR, especially spectrum that doesn't need to be refarmed.  Sprint is doing just 40MHz in places, of which Dish has. Carriers are looking at 3.5GHz, but depending who bids and who gets what, there isn't really a lot of spectrum there to be had.  Just that it will likely be cheap.  

ATT doesn't have to put all their spectrum on air across the nation.  TMobile isn't even doing it for new coverage areas.  ATT even said that B14 was going to be targeted deployments and only added where the capacity was needed.  

On 9/4/2019 at 2:21 AM, RAvirani said:

 

3GPP release 10.3. 

2180-2200 DL/2000-2020 UL. It's not terribly publicized because it was never used/deployed. Band 70 is a hodgepodge of Dish's spectrum holdings that was created due to Sprint's (and possibly a few other companies' although I can’t remember) complaints that the PCS H block would interfere with other PCS operations. 

Why would they want to do Band 23 though? They can use 1995-2020 as DL.  Do B70+B66.

Nice stuff! Wonder how Amphenol prices compare.  They trying to be a market disruptor?

To go 8x8, does VZW go that route more on an as needed basis?

Also very cool all LTE. I would have figured AT&T or TMobile to be the first. If this stuff is getting a major deployment in your area, would be interesting to know how many 3G sites they are running off of now.  

1 hour ago, dro1984 said:

I agree.   Not sure how diligent they will be in providing a good 600MHz path and depth.   I do read on TMO News, that they are progressing with 700 deployment as well, but the main focus has been 600.      Do you think this merger will ultimately be completed?   

Im skeptical of TMo News because they list cities constantly.  ATL is like on half the update pages.  It's like a few sites get upgraded (we don't know extent of upgrade) so gets listed. Not like back when spectrum refarm, mimo or qam was changed in mass. 

With how far it is into it, I think the merger will happen.  Im split on it however.  I do like that we will get movement from Dish.  Whether they sell out in the future or not, it will be exciting to see Dish actually move forward with something.  I like Sprint's regional roaming agreements and the fact that I use them and support local business if you will.  I'm sure these will go away and will be missed.  I've never liked TMobile's 'no service' status on my phones when they could easily at least roam on a regional carrier. Whether prices go up or down, they won't be where we need them.  They won't go down to what we we think if fair. 

If the merger happens, once my phones get updated for TMobile VoLTE I think we'll switch to MintSim.  I pay $90/mo + tax for two lines and use ~12GB total.  It's way too much for essentially internet access, and most places we are on WiFi anyways.  I feel like all the carriers keep adding more and more features or limits to these plans that very few actually use to keep prices inflated.  Make you feel like you get a lot so are ok with it, even though you actually use a little.  

11 hours ago, dro1984 said:

Red_Dog, Your posts are usually good ... you've tought me a lot, so thanks... but I have to say this...  

1.  Merger has not gone through.  So no worries. 

2.  T Mobile  600 being deployed at a record pace as many on here have admitted to.  Give it time.  (Sprint would take years... just got Sprint 800 MHz in my area and how long has it been??)   It works for crap anyway.   

3.  Sprint doesn't give up  800 for 3 years as it was written.   They can also lease back, so I don't understand what the worries / issues are?  None of it can be deployed instantly. 

4.   T Mobile owns very little 700 MHz, (5 or 10 MHz? and I don't think it's nation-wide)  I think less than Sprint has 800 MHz... but they too are installing it as much as they can.       Sadly, at the rate of all the states suing them, blocking and so forth on purely political reasons... not even sure this will actually happen.   Now they're all crying that the FCC should/must open it up to public comment before their final vote .   With a year and a half into the review, and the millions of pages of material submitted, there is no need or  more review and re-review.    

Until then, .. your Sprint service should remain the same.   

Outside MetroPCS acquisition which gave TMobile some 700A, they started in earnest getting 700MHz like 5yrs ago now.  It doesn't matter if it is just 5 or 10MHz wide or that they don't have a 700A license that USCC holds.  It's the fact that they have many 700A licenses, have had it for many years now. Yet a lack serious deployment to cover their gaps, lack of deployment in totally new coverage areas, etc. 

Sure, TMobile is getting 600MHz up there and quick.  I expect them too.  Just like they did with 700. But will it be above and beyond 700s deployment and be closer to ATT/VZW/Sprints level of deployment where low-band is essentially on every tower or just end up being a sprinkling.  The 700 experience or lack there of, for me, does not instill confidence in complete and total commitment. 

The merger hasn't gone through, but when it does, 3yrs may not be enough with how many years TMobile has had with 700. Over those three years there is going to be loads of work at all levels for TMobile so who knows where resources are going to get diverted.

16 hours ago, mdob07 said:

At the power levels these seem to be broadcasting, I wouldn't be too worried about indoor interference from these.

What are they? The max allowed isn't much and APs tend to not get close to max allowed specs for 5GHz. If they do even twice what APs do, being outside, a good AP is going to be sensitive enough to know that something is there taking up airtime. Half the time I see pictures of these it looks like they are just in some neighborhood. 😕 

11 hours ago, RAvirani said:

I was in Fort Lauterdale and Palm Beach most of last week and wanted to quickly share my experience using AT&T down there. 

This was undoubtedly the worst non-rural cellular experience I have had in the US in a long time. This was very unexpected because of the amount of spectrum AT&T has in the area.

Overall, I was very unimpressed with AT&T's performance and would not recommend them to anyone living in the area. 

I was up at Cocoa Beach this summer I had a bad time on Sprint and my family was having a bad time on VZW.  At least on Sprint one step you are on 1x800 and the next step you could have B41.  I started looking for towers and only found a few.  The ones I found were barely taller than any of the buildings and would have 3 or 4 carriers on them. The place also doesn't have very many tall buildings to put sites on so the sites were very short. 

Seems like a nice sized massive mimo deployment is going on in Chattanooga.  Every time I get out in town I spot a new 5G MM antenna.  

Performance is awesome.  First time in this city I have gotten over 100Mbps.  Actually on the 8T8R gear I have really only seen 60Mbps peak. Figured backhaul on these sites was limited.  These new antennas, I ran just two tests and peaked at 140Mbps.  

Metro city is ranked 100, City is ranked 144 in pop size. If this city is getting 5G stuff, I can only imagine the rest.  This deployment makes me kinda oppose the merger a bit.

On 8/1/2019 at 12:40 PM, dro1984 said:

You guys are too much!   A little B26 goes bye-bye for a bunch of 600mhz.  And Sprint gets to keep 800 for 3 more years... are you really going to miss it that much?!      Way more useful and a lot more of it considering they can use some or all of Dish's 600 holdings as well as their own.     I'd say a divestiture was a foregone conclusion, but if that's all they had to give up (spectrum-wise) I'd say it was a great deal!     

Well, TMobile still has a LOT of work to do in low-band. If the merger went through today and 800MHz was lost today, I'd take a serious hit in coverage, reliability and usability inside and outside the city because TMobile's 700 is extremely lacking.  This holds true for everywhere I travel in East TN. If 600MHz deployment is like their 700, it's gonna suck.  And in new coverage areas I visit like East KY, did they forget they own 700A there?  So many new sites that are rubbish and make for a horrible inconsistent experience because of the lack of 700.

If TMobile can't up beef up 600/700 by the time 800 is unusable, it's gonna not be great. If they have a ton of work in places I routinely go or visit, I can only imagine what the rest of the network is like.  

Wow.  They are in WiFi Channel 153 and 157.  Unless you go with a 20MHz channel below or above there is no way to avoid interference specifically from LAA.  40MHz channel will overlap these. 😕 

nm

On 8/7/2019 at 2:38 PM, bigsnake49 said:

https://www.speedtest.net/insights/blog/new-t-mobile-spectrum-coverage/

Did they forget to count AWS3 or something?

Just in 700E, PCS-H, AWS3 A1/B1 (lacks full coverage missing 26 licenses), AWS4, 800MHz is 85MHz. My market should be two scales higher. 

Atlanta for example is in the 81-90MHz color scale but  has 115MHz.  40MHz AWS4, 10MHz PCS-H, 15MHz AWS3 A1/B1, 10MHz AWS3 G, 6MHz 700E, 20MHz 600 F/G, 14MHz 800.

13 hours ago, Trip said:

Shentel does not own any spectrum.  They operate a network they constructed on Sprint's spectrum.

My understanding is that within a certain number of days of the close of the sale, the merged entity has to inform Shentel of what it wants to do.  There are three options, and I'm not going to promise that I remember them perfectly.

1) New T-Mobile buys Shentel at a premium.  I don't remember the details, but I recall that even though Shentel doesn't own the spectrum, the company is valued as if it owned the spectrum in the buy-out. 

2) New T-Mobile sells the T-Mobile customers and network to Shentel at a discount.  Again, I don't recall the specifics, but I recall something about 75% of the actual value, and New T-Mobile must help finance the purchase at a very good rate if Shentel requests such financing.

3) New T-Mobile doesn't do anything.  Shentel remains in business, but doesn't get the network assets or the customers in the region.  However, New T-Mobile must then shut down the T-Mobile network in the Shentel region within two years.

To me, it clearly feels structured to keep Shentel in business.  In options 1 and 2, Shentel gets a great deal, and even the "do nothing" option ends up with Shentel still in business and New T-Mobile not running a competing network.  It seems designed to encourage option 2, or at least, that's how I read it.

- Trip

Yeah. Those seem like the options without looking at them directly.

2 and 3 make Shentel need money.  2 they have to buy TMobile subs or 3 they have to buy spectrum.  I think option 2 is the most likely, and they do get TMobile financing, but then they still might pay some cash upfront or finance with someone else if they can find a better rate.  So at most, I'd expect them to either pump up cash reserves or pay down debt higher than normal.  

Now for option 1, the way I have seen it written, it sounds like TMobile has the option to buy Shentel wireless business (not all of Shentel, just the wireless business portion).  But it is written in such a way it makes it sound like TMobile has the option to buy, not Shentel has the option to sell.  So it could potentially end up being a hostile takeover by TMobile if Shentel never actually wanted to sell their business but are legally obligated.  

As far as the spectrum, I assumed they got ntelos licenses when they bought the remaining portion that wasn't sold to TMobile. 

With how the agreement is structured, if the merger goes through is it that TMobile has the option to buy Shentel's wireless business? Or is it that Shentel has the option to sell their wireless business?

If Shentel keeps the business, which I'd expect they would want to, they either have to buy TMobile subscribers or buy all the available 600/AWS3 spectrum available in their market as they will become spectrum starved and lack low band.  I'd expect for them to increase cash on hand, or remove a bit of debt for the anticipation of the merger closing.  

It'll be interesting how the 5G plays out.  Right now, costs are up on Sprint if you want to be part of 5G.  Having to be on their absolute newest top tier plan.  Does Sprint even allow you to have a 5G phone and not be on the Unlimited Premium plan?

This is the avenue that which New-TMobile will be able to easily raise rates buy pushing customers to newer plans, or having add-on for existing plans.  At the least a huge whole for reps to exploit. 

As it is, 5G is more expensive.  even without this merger prices are going up.  Only time will tell if these newer higher prices become normal, or if 5G access will be sold on current priced lower tiered plans and/or without needing to buy 5G add-on to your plan.

3 hours ago, bigsnake49 said:

They will get some Sprint network assets at fire sale prices. So not as much as if they started from the ground up. Plus Sprint base stations are completely programmable to accommodate new protocols.

If they are taking over leases, I doubt they will be saving significantly on the lease cost, if any.  More of a regulatory time saver. Dish seems like they are going all 5G.  They may not want an LTE 800MHz network, so shut that down as soon as they can. Are those base stations even 5G capable? They will also have to do a tower climb to deploy gear that supports their spectrum portfolio for any site they keep.  There could be some savings depending on what Dish has interest in, but there will still be a lot of work at each site they take over.

It would be nice to know how much of that WiFI use was at home. 

With all the money moving around that Softbank did at Sprint when they bought them, didn't Sprint sell a lot of their 2.5GHz to shell companies held by Softbank and lease them back?  So a lot of the 2.5GHz isn't actually owned or leased directly to New-TMobile, but New-TMobile leasing via these shell companies?

Knowing that they are going to cover 70% in less than 4 years, how much will that cost.  Seems like Dish is going to have to try and raise a lot of capital. 

NM