Official Tmobile-Sprint merger discussion thread

[jreuschl]

2 minutes ago, clbowens said:

This is one of the things I've been wondering.  Will new T-Mobile add LTE 41 to their existing network?  Or will they just add N41 to their network, and slowly shut down B41?

Some users have noticed a single channel of B41 for LTE in Nokia markets on a fully upgraded tower.  Doesn't sound widespread.

They can also do it with tech called DSS.  But all TM has said it is buggy and impacts performance too much.  They have more than enough spectrum though...

They haven't given any updates on DSS since Feb.

[BlueAngel]

38 minutes ago, jreuschl said:

I'm assuming some of those people complaining about B41 loss have the S20 or another current 5G phone, because then the T-Mobile network becomes primary and you will lose B41.

Not defending it.  I know how frustrating it is, and I've echoed the all eggs into 5G concern before, too.

I've had nothing but positive experiences on T-Mobile 5G, faster than B41 on average due to Sprint lacking backhaul.

[greenbastard]

21 hours ago, ingenium said:

How did you get those?

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 

Have one from when I signed up, then the other two from promotional offers were T-Mobile gives out free lines with no strings attached. This last one was from the 4th of July deal last month. It wasn't publicized at all, but a ton of people got it (without even knowing the promo was active).

[dro1984]

T-Mobile now has over 160 mHz of 2500 mHz in most all markets... some even have more....    Why the need to cannibalize any b41 LTE?  At max it was only 40mHz deployed in most markets.     I would think that would leave them at minimum of 60-80 mhz to play with for N41 or what ever they want to do...while leaving what ever B41 deployed as was before.    Something tells me they are not telling us everything and they have something brewing.   

[dewbertdc]

1 hour ago, clbowens said:

This is one of the things I've been wondering.  Will new T-Mobile add LTE 41 to their existing network?  Or will they just add N41 to their network, and slowly shut down B41?

New T-Mobile is adding B41 LTE to their existing network; there have been sightings in Chicago, New York, Washington, DC and a few other cities.

[RAvirani]

6 minutes ago, dro1984 said:

At max it was only 40mHz deployed in most markets.

That's not necessarily true. Most markets had three L2500 carriers (60 MHz) with some markets, such as Seattle, boasting up to five carriers for 100 MHz of L2500 on air. 

8 minutes ago, dro1984 said:

I would think that would leave them at minimum of 60-80 mhz to play with for N41 or what ever they want to do...

The other thing to take into consideration is equipment limitations; massive MIMO units Sprint was deploying had a 120 MHz bandwidth limit, and I believe T-Mobile equipment is the same (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Without DSS, this means every bit of spectrum that goes towards LTE is spectrum that can’t be used for NR. 

[greenbastard]

3 hours ago, RAvirani said:

That's not necessarily true. Most markets had three L2500 carriers (60 MHz) with some markets, such as Seattle, boasting up to five carriers for 100 MHz of L2500 on air. 

In my experience, the markets that had 5 B41 carriers didn't have it on every tower. It was a limited rollout. Now that may have changed after I left Sprint, but I highly doubt it since Dallas and Houston were still littered with old Clearwire equipment.

[dkyeager]

4 hours ago, RAvirani said:

That's not necessarily true. Most markets had three L2500 carriers (60 MHz) with some markets, such as Seattle, boasting up to five carriers for 100 MHz of L2500 on air. 

The other thing to take into consideration is equipment limitations; massive MIMO units Sprint was deploying had a 120 MHz bandwidth limit, and I believe T-Mobile equipment is the same (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Without DSS, this means every bit of spectrum that goes towards LTE is spectrum that can’t be used for NR. 

Or you install multiple massive MIMOs per sector in the markets that can handle it/ need it.  Another option is to leave most Sprint b41 up where possible until needed on the T-Mobile side.

[RedSpark]

Think T-Mobile will bid on this 5G spectrum?: https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Releases/Release/Article/2307275/white-house-and-dod-announce-additional-mid-band-spectrum-available-for-5g-by-t/

“The White House and Department of Defense announced today that 100 megahertz (MHz) of contiguous mid-band spectrum, in the 3450-3550 MHz band, will be available for 5G by the end of the summer.“

More info: https://breakingdefense.com/2020/08/pentagon-gives-up-huge-slice-of-spectrum-for-5g/

“The White House formally made the request in April. Roughly 200 technical experts from all four armed services, the Office of Secretary of Defense, and the White House Office of Science & Technology Policy studied the problem for 15 weeks. The FCC, which has already endorsed the plan, will start auctioning the spectrum off in December 2021, Kratsios said, with commercial use beginning “as soon as mid-2022.””

I’m sure AT&T/Verizon will fight hard for it.

[Dkoellerwx]

17 hours ago, dro1984 said:

  Why the need to cannibalize any b41 LTE?  At max it was only 40mHz deployed in most markets.   

The *vast* majority of markets had at least 60Mhz deployed, more if you count small cells and magic boxes. There were only a few areas where they were limited to 40Mhz due to spectrum issues.

[ingenium]

The other thing to take into consideration is equipment limitations; massive MIMO units Sprint was deploying had a 120 MHz bandwidth limit, and I believe T-Mobile equipment is the same (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Without DSS, this means every bit of spectrum that goes towards LTE is spectrum that can’t be used for NR. 

True, but NR maxes out at 100 MHz per carrier, and there's no NR CA yet. So may as well use the remaining 20 MHz for LTE until 5G devices become more prominent. You just have to drop to 32t32r on both I think.

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[RAvirani]

3 hours ago, ingenium said:

True, but NR maxes out at 100 MHz per carrier, and there's no NR CA yet. So may as well use the remaining 20 MHz for LTE until 5G devices become more prominent. You just have to drop to 32t32r on both I think.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 

I'm not 100% sure about the MIMO drop, but if it's true I can see why new T-Mobile is avoiding L2500 even more than before.

New T-Mobile's logic is that the drop in Tx/Rx diversity is quite a hit to 5G performance for just a 20 MHz LTE carrier. In their mind, gains in "virtual" coverage (via SNR, improved beamforming, etc.) far outweigh the need for a 20 MHz LTE carrier. Plus, that last 20 MHz can also be configured as a DL only NR channel to be aggregated with the primary NR channel - I believe NR TDD config 0 consists of 14 DL timeslots with no UL or flex timeslots. 

[bigsnake49]

11 hours ago, RedSpark said:

Think T-Mobile will bid on this 5G spectrum?: https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Releases/Release/Article/2307275/white-house-and-dod-announce-additional-mid-band-spectrum-available-for-5g-by-t/

“The White House and Department of Defense announced today that 100 megahertz (MHz) of contiguous mid-band spectrum, in the 3450-3550 MHz band, will be available for 5G by the end of the summer.“

More info: https://breakingdefense.com/2020/08/pentagon-gives-up-huge-slice-of-spectrum-for-5g/

“The White House formally made the request in April. Roughly 200 technical experts from all four armed services, the Office of Secretary of Defense, and the White House Office of Science & Technology Policy studied the problem for 15 weeks. The FCC, which has already endorsed the plan, will start auctioning the spectrum off in December 2021, Kratsios said, with commercial use beginning “as soon as mid-2022.””

I’m sure AT&T/Verizon will fight hard for it.

And there goes T-Mobile spectrum advantage between that, CBRS and C-Band. 

[RedSpark]

6 minutes ago, bigsnake49 said:

And there goes T-Mobile spectrum advantage between that, CBRS and C-Band. 

Not necessarily. Depends who bids for it, how much they get and what they have to pay for it.

Had the merger not occurred (with Masa failing to infuse any cash into the business), Sprint would be in an even worse position as T-Mobile could have picked some up, unless AT&T or Verizon grabbed it all. Sprint was already circling the drain. This would have finished them off in my opinion. Sprint didn't have the money for lowband, and it wouldn't have had the money for this spectrum either.

The efficiencies realized through merger synergies should allow T-Mobile to pick up some if it wanted to.

[dkyeager]

They will certainly want to bid on some, but I suspect they will be more interested in more n41 spectrum when it goes to auction. FCC needs to get moving if this will be done before January 20th will a possible political change.  Thete are many areas where they only have 55Mhz contigous b41 spectrum.

[JonnygATL]

9 hours ago, bigsnake49 said:

And there goes T-Mobile spectrum advantage between that, CBRS and C-Band. 

And TMobile has quite the temporal leg up on deploying said mid band, pre-existing spectrum with an already well seeded device portfolio that can take advantage of their 2.5 mid band spectrum. Will the other 2 eventually catch up? Probably. Money does talk, after all. But not before TMO enjoys its solitary vacation for 18 to 24 monts!

[bigsnake49]

I was just trying to see if b41 on my Sprint phone was prevalent while driving to pick up a pizza. While it was available outside my condo, coverage died out quickly west of A1A and Sprint's B25 took over. B26 inside the pizzeria. No B41 until about a quarter mile west of A1A going east towards home. Probably a B41 small cell. No T-Mobile bands appeared on my Sprint phone anywhere on that trip and scant B41 coverage. I do believe T-Mobile has much better coverage on this route. I can't wait to see what T-Mobile will do but so far nothing has changed.

[dewbertdc]

Some interesting tidbits here: 

https://www.fiercewireless.com/operators/t-mobile-says-it-will-have-thousands-2-5-ghz-sites-live-year

Quote

Speaking today at the Oppenheimer Technology Conference, T-Mobile’s President of Technology Neville Ray said that his team is in the process of rolling out mid-band 5G on the company’s 2.5 GHz spectrum and at the same time deploying low-band 5G across its 600 MHz spectrum assets. Ray said that his team is in the midst of a “hyper-aggressive” upgrade and they are able to upgrade about 700 sites per week. But Ray wants them to be even faster and is hoping to get that number to 800 sites per week.

And while he admits that this is very aggressive, he notes that at least with the 600 MHz spectrum, his team isn’t building new towers, but instead hanging radios and adding antennas to existing infrastructure. With the 2.5 GHz spectrum, the process can be a bit more time consuming because with those sites team members are also adding power and in some cases backup power sources. “The work can be done in just under 10 business days depending upon the complexity of the site,” Ray said.

 

 

[iansltx]

Yep, no real reason to add new towers in most areas. TMo's network is spaced for AWS at this point in urban/suburban areas so they have their pick of where to put 600 panels. Merely swapping 700 for 600 on the sites that have 700 would be an immense improvement.

Likewise, if M-MIMO n41 is as good as folks say it is, AWS LTE spacing should be sufficient for that as well. Particularly since TMo can pick L-Sprint sites if those are better. Depending on area, those sites are spaced for either PCS or B41.

[BlueAngel]

Wish I would get some n41 around me, if I want that I literally have to go into the city or the ghetto lol. n71 isn't bad but I want better speeds.

[dkyeager]

21 hours ago, JonnygATL said:

And TMobile has quite the temporal leg up on deploying said mid band, pre-existing spectrum with an already well seeded device portfolio that can take advantage of their 2.5 mid band spectrum. Will the other 2 eventually catch up? Probably. Money does talk, after all. But not before TMO enjoys its solitary vacation for 18 to 24 monts!

Sprint would only get a six month window. I suspect the New T-Mobile with just get 12 to 18 months.

[dro1984]

Very interesting article from the T-Mobile Oppenheimer webchat yesterday.  It included network upgrade plans.  

SDX Central News article:   T-Mobile Details $40B Network Upgrade Strategy

[bigsnake49]

9 minutes ago, dro1984 said:

Very interesting article from the T-Mobile Oppenheimer webchat yesterday.  It included network upgrade plans.  

SDX Central News article:   T-Mobile Details $40B Network Upgrade Strategy

It's all about 5G, nothing about LTE integration on PCS or new SIMs. So their network integration strategy is if you're on Sprint, you better move to 5G or else...

[derrph]

It's all about 5G, nothing about LTE integration on PCS or new SIMs. So their network integration strategy is if you're on Sprint, you better move to 5G or else...

I would love for T-Mobile to also address their LTE as well and not just 5G but we can’t get everything we want in life. Maybe they’ll circle back around at some point.


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[dro1984]

From what I gather from the earnings call and yesterdays investment webcast is not the best (to me).... 600 and 2.5 will be strictly 5G ...very little of those 2 bands will be left for LTE bands.    700, AWS and 1900 (Bands 2 and 25) will be LTE.     

He (Neville) did say that they are upgrading 700 to dual 600/700 antenna's.   Don't know if that would mean memo sites or what?    Does anyone know what that could entail?    Another issue (as I see it) is that there is very little 700 mhz around me.  T-Mobile didn't deploy a lot of it.     So does that mean even areas that didn't have 700 before will now have both 600 and 700?