Sprint backhaul

[lilotimz]

 

 

>> http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/cellulartelecomms/lte-long-term-evolution/4g-lte-advanced-relaying.php

[mhammett]

Going from 3 20 mhz carriers to 6 20 mhz carrier requires double the backhaul requirements (1gigabit minimum per site to 2 gigabit minimum) which most of the time entails nearly twice the backhaul costs. We're about paying $1000-2000 to $5000-$7000 a month.

I don't buy in the volumes Sprint does, but they're not going to get a ton of discounts if there are build costs rolled in. On the contrary, it is easier to absorb the build of a random circuit here and there vs. tens of thousands of them. Your random GigE of backhaul will likely go for $1500 - $4k/month, depending on build requirements. A second GigE on the same route is going to be significantly less. A 10GigE is going to be $3k - $8k. I've had 10GigEs com in under that. If they were smart, they'd go from GigE to 10GigE and use some microwave backhaul to aggregate sites.

 

Verizon has been moving to raw dark fiber, allowing them to light it themselves, be it 10GigE, 40GigE, Nx10GigE, etc. Obviously those are all that the very high end of what is needed for cell backhaul outside of a venue, but Verizon will have more control over their network and their pricing by going dark.

 

Dark in a 20 year IRU format will range from $800/strand mile to $10k+/strand mile, all depending on routes. Difficulty and competition play the big parts here. I thought I saw it was a $145M deal, but I can't find that now.

[nick]

I don't buy in the volumes Sprint does, but they're not going to get a ton of discounts if there are build costs rolled in. On the contrary, it is easier to absorb the build of a random circuit here and there vs. tens of thousands of them. Your random GigE of backhaul will likely go for $1500 - $4k/month, depending on build requirements. A second GigE on the same route is going to be significantly less. A 10GigE is going to be $3k - $8k. I've had 10GigEs com in under that. If they were smart, they'd go from GigE to 10GigE and use some microwave backhaul to aggregate sites.

 

Verizon has been moving to raw dark fiber, allowing them to light it themselves, be it 10GigE, 40GigE, Nx10GigE, etc. Obviously those are all that the very high end of what is needed for cell backhaul outside of a venue, but Verizon will have more control over their network and their pricing by going dark.

 

Dark in a 20 year IRU format will range from $800/strand mile to $10k+/strand mile, all depending on routes. Difficulty and competition play the big parts here. I thought I saw it was a $145M deal, but I can't find that now.

Thanks for the info, I didn't realize backhaul was that expensive, I wonder how many alternative methods they have? Since competition drives prices down.

 

 

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[mhammett]

it largely depends on what's available where.

[radem]

If I understand this LTE Relay mini-macro concept properly, it seems as though a single macro sector with 20x20 CA could easily support a Band 25, Band 26 and a band 41 LTE carrier with a couple voice carriers and not even be dedicated bandwidth.  All the end users on the mini-macro would see would be a limitation in upload speed. If there were 2 chains of 20x20x20 CA on the macro site for each sector it should easily be able to support 3 LTE relay mini-macros that were being moderately used and even more relays per sector if they were lightly used or if the macro bandwidth was dedicated.

 

That is 9 mini-macro LTE relays per macro tower with the macro tower still able to do its normal work.  That is a lot of extra coverage.

[tyroned3222]

Has anybody seen any sprint improvements lately? The sprint executive team told me:" in the 1st half of 2016 we should ramp up network upgrades due to having such a great Quarter".

 

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[JWMaloney]

Has anybody seen any sprint improvements lately? The sprint executive team told me:" in the 1st half of 2016 we should ramp up network upgrades due to having such a great Quarter".

 

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NOLA has had 3 LTE GMOs in stealth monopoles upgraded to full builds within the last week. Also had a few band 41 installations where capacity was needed the most.

 

East Texas has also seen a few 3G GMO to full build conversions.

[tyroned3222]

NOLA has had 3 LTE GMOs in stealth monopoles upgraded to full builds within the last week. Also had a few band 41 installations where capacity was needed the most.

 

East Texas has also seen a few 3G GMO to full build conversions.

Nice! She did state capacity is needed more since more people are using the network now...

 

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[WiWavelength]

If I understand this LTE Relay mini-macro concept properly, it seems as though a single macro sector with 20x20 CA...

 

Be careful with the terminology, as "20x20" is accepted widely as 20 MHz FDD.  It has nothing to do with CA.  For that, something along the lines of 2x CA or 20+20 MHz TDD is more appropriate.

 

AJ

[radem]

Be careful with the terminology, as "20x20" is accepted widely as 20 MHz FDD.  It has nothing to do with CA.  For that, something along the lines of 2x CA or 20+20 MHz TDD is more appropriate.

 

AJ

You Sir are correct.  I should have used 20+20 rather than 20x20.  Force of habit. 

 

I still believe that I am correct that every 20+20 CA band 41 sector can easily provide the bandwidth for a heavily used mini-macro relay and can provide the bandwidth for several lightly used mini-macro relays.  This means that we should be able to see at least 9 mini-macro relays per macro site if there are 3 sectors on that site and that site has 6 band 41 carriers per sector.

[mhammett]

Be careful with the terminology, as "20x20" is accepted widely as 20 MHz FDD. It has nothing to do with CA. For that, something along the lines of 2x CA or 20+20 MHz TDD is more appropriate.

 

AJ

I'm looking at a link that has 80x80 MIMO. :-) Now to convince the customer...

 

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[laqn1283]

Question:  why Sprint need to use its own spectrum in this relay setup instead of microwave backhaul?  

[S4GRU]

Question: why Sprint need to use its own spectrum in this relay setup instead of microwave backhaul?

It's just one of their backhaul solutions. It will be used in areas where the 2.5 Macro Cell just can't reach far enough or well enough into a fringe area just outside its coverage. Then it will use the relay setup to extend its reach. They will also use microwave in many other places.

 

If the area being served by the small cell will have too many customers in it, then the relay is not a good option in that instance. The site will then need its own backhaul solution from a donor fiber connection via microwave. However, there are thousands of micro cell locations that are just outside an existing macro cell, where coverage is spotty or non existent. Places that are coverage holes, but not places with really high demand. The relay solution is great for those locations.

 

Sprint, using micro cells as both coverage extenders (using relay) and capacity extenders (via microwave), will be able to create ubiquitous B41 networks over urban/suburban areas. And even some key exurban and highway locations. If the small cell program goes well, I could see Sprint adding ROW utility pole small cells even on rural highways in locations between towers where there is a dip in the road or small hill where signals have historically been poor and prone to dropping.

 

This all in all a good thing. Hopefully the cost and speed of deployment can meet or beat projections. It could allow this to be an amazing supplement to the macro network.

 

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[nick]

It's just one of their backhaul solutions. It will be used in areas where the 2.5 Macro Cell just can't reach far enough or well enough into a fringe area just outside its coverage. Then it will use the relay setup to extend its reach. They will also use microwave in many other places.

 

If the area being served by the small cell will have too many customers in it, then the relay is not a good option in that instance. The site will then need its own backhaul solution from a donor fiber connection via microwave. However, there are thousands of micro cell locations that are just outside an existing macro cell, where coverage is spotty or non existent. Places that are coverage holes, but not places with really high demand. The relay solution is great for those locations.

 

Sprint, using micro cells as both coverage extenders (using relay) and capacity extenders (via microwave), will be able to create ubiquitous B41 networks over urban/suburban areas. And even some key exurban and highway locations. If the small cell program goes well, I could see Sprint adding ROW utility pole small cells even on rural highways in locations between towers where there is a dip in the road or small hill where signals have historically been poor and prone to dropping.

 

This all in all a good thing. Hopefully the cost and speed of deployment can meet or beat projections. It could allow this to be an amazing supplement to the macro network.

 

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I like your vision of the future, i hope sprint can pull it off, in my area if your on band 41 your fine, but I fall back to 25/26 it's overloaded.  all but one of my local towers have band 41, we just need some coverage extension... 6-7 small cells would cover my town perfectly!   

[davepadgett79]

im still in 3g no lte at all be thankful lol

[JonnygATL]

im still in 3g no lte at all be thankful lol

This is likely more appropriate for the East KY thread but where in Nicholasville are you? Jessamine County has solid band 25 and 26 LTE unless you are really, really far out there. Is it a non triband phone issue?

[davepadgett79]

im at camp nelson 40444 zip code tower id LV---- you can check windstream map and it has fiber to it but has nv only upgrade all around it in nicholasville i get lte band 25 and 26 site LV---- still doesnt even have 1x800 im thinking it will never get upgrade cant even get service in the house that good

[RAvirani]

im at camp nelson 40444 zip code tower id LV---- you can check windstream map and it has fiber to it but has nv only upgrade all around it in nicholasville i get lte band 25 and 26 site LV---- still doesnt even have 1x800 im thinking it will never get upgrade cant even get service in the house that good

You should prob edit that you aren't allowed to post site IDs in non premier threads

[ingenium]

im at camp nelson 40444 zip code tower id LV---- you can check windstream map and it has fiber to it but has nv only upgrade all around it in nicholasville i get lte band 25 and 26 site LV---- still doesnt even have 1x800 im thinking it will never get upgrade cant even get service in the house that good

If it has B26 and 1x1900 then it also has 1x800, unless they specifically turned it off for some reason (too close to other sites?). The standard Sprint PRL has 1x1900 higher in the scan order than 1x800. So it's likely you're just not connecting to it.

 

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[Rawvega]

You should prob edit that you aren't allowed to post site IDs in non premier threads

 

Additionally, you should probably edit your quote of his post since it also contains the site IDs. 

[Trip]

Additionally, you should probably edit your quote of his post since it also contains the site IDs. 

 

I took care of it.

 

- Trip

[Wireless Junkie]

They use AT&T here

 

 

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[mhammett]

If you note where you got the site ID, they are allowed elsewhere. Other than here, places I get mine are FCC filings, filings, local government filings and the site itself.

 

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[davepadgett79]

my bad i was at work at not payinig attention