T-Mobile LTE & Network Discussion V2

[WiWavelength]

Per COO Mike Seivert...T-Mobiles churn is down 30bps this QTR. Their best church improvement this year unless it takes a big turn for the worst in December.

 

Yeah, the church of T-Mobile.  That seems about right.

 

AJ

[EvanA]

Magentians still in fantasy land

 

https://np.reddit.com/r/tmobile/comments/3vu4fi/tmobile_the_first_ltefirst_network/

[Fraydog]

Magentians still in fantasy land

 

https://np.reddit.com/r/tmobile/comments/3vu4fi/tmobile_the_first_ltefirst_network/

 

Seriously, Milan should be advocating for EDGE shutdown first. Fully modernized rural setups would allow for TMo to decommission EDGE and GSM altogether. That is the biggest spectrum savings around for T-Mobile. HSPA is still efficient.

 

 

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[EvanA]

You struck a nerve!

 

 

Seriously, Milan should be advocating for EDGE shutdown first. Fully modernized rural setups would allow for TMo to decommission EDGE and GSM altogether. That is the biggest spectrum savings around for T-Mobile. HSPA is still efficient.

 

 

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I fully expect T-Mobile to reduce GSM sooner than later. I bet they'll eventually do what AT&T did in NYC and move GSM carriers into guard bands until it's feasible to completely shut it down.

[Paynefanbro]

I was in a little spat with him too. He is very knowledgeable about networks and such (more knowledgeable than myself) however he is also being completely unreasonable in my opinion and is unwilling to accept that the company that is much further along with LTE is more likely to go full LTE sooner than T-Mobile. The proof is in the pudding. You can purchase an unlocked One A9 and use it on Verizon's network in LTE only mode. It's not to discredit T-Mobile's accomplishments, I'm just being realistic.

[Fraydog]

I was in a little spat with him too. I get that he is very knowledgeable about networks and such however he is also being completely unreasonable in my opinion and is unwilling to accept that the company that is much further along with LTE is more likely to go full LTE sooner than T-Mobile. The proof is in the pudding. You can purchase an unlocked One A9 and use it on Verizon's network in LTE only mode. It's not to discredit T-Mobile's accomplishments, I'm just being realistic.

VZW can still run CDMA in guard bands, I will grant him that. That gets VZW to 2021. That said, if an all LTE network is good for T-Mobile, it's good for Verizon too.

 

That CDMA infrastructure for them is awful at this point. Sure their call reliability is A+ but they kill call quality to get there. VZ VoLTE is a huge difference for me. Much better call quality and reliability has also been surprisingly good. No dropped calls yet. CDMA always kinda sucked here being on a CMA border. None of those issues exist with VoLTE.

 

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[reedacus25]

Seriously, Milan should be advocating for EDGE shutdown first. Fully modernized rural setups would allow for TMo to decommission EDGE and GSM altogether. That is the biggest spectrum savings around for T-Mobile. HSPA is still efficient.

GSM sunset is going to be tricky.

 

In dense urban markets, they have all the more reason to sunset it. They are already thinning it to as low as reasonable so as to maximize UMTS capacity in PCS, which frees AWS up for LTE widening in AWS. The master plan.

 

The issue is that in rural areas they have little to no reason to go UMTS (much to my chagrin).

 

Where you need minimum 2.4-4.2 MHz FDD of GSM depending on your reuse factor, in rural areas you can get away with less than 1 MHz on highway 2-sector sites strung down a road way.

 

In some areas, this would require scaling back the LTE carrier to support a UMTS carrier if they chose to go this approach.

 

If I could have 10 MHz Band 2 + GSM or 5 MHz Band 2 + UMTS I'm probably going to settle for the latter. But I am the latter.

 

By doing the GMO quick and dirty overlay, they have boxed themselves in a PCS corner.

 

I fully expect T-Mobile to reduce GSM sooner than later. I bet they'll eventually do what AT&T did in NYC and move GSM carriers into guard bands until it's feasible to completely shut it down.

The other piece of this is that T-Mobile has already shown that they aren't afraid to have LTE only RAN. Look at all the B12 only sites in Michigan, North/South Dakota, Louisiana. They clearly have enough faith in VoLTE and their LTE RAN to not feel like they need the other layers.

 

It will be interesting to see how this all turns out in the long run.

 

 

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[derrph]

Thoughts on this...

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2015/12/07/t-mobile-accused-false-advertising-new-york-ag-investigates/76921524/

 

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[NYC126]

Wow you guys struck a nerve on the Tmobile CTO. Regardless what they do they don't have enough spectrum for the next 10 years and the Germans are aware of that. That is one of the reasons why they want a merger.

[sbolen]

Seriously, Milan should be advocating for EDGE shutdown first. Fully modernized rural setups would allow for TMo to decommission EDGE and GSM altogether. That is the biggest spectrum savings around for T-Mobile. HSPA is still efficient.

 

 

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Is he "Magenta Paladin?"

 

 

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[Fraydog]

 

 

Not sure if TMUS is running out of spectrum either. VZ has the spectrum tightrope to walk on. They seem to be doing OK.

 

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[Fraydog]

  

 

 

[EvanA]

Wouldya look at that, Fabian loves lurking here

 

http://np.reddit.com/r/tmobile/comments/3vu4fi/tmobile_the_first_ltefirst_network/cxquzmd

 

Hi Fabian! [emoji112]

[cortney]

Wouldya look at that (snip)

 

http://np.reddit.com/r/tmobile/comments/3vu4fi/tmobile_the_first_ltefirst_network/cxquzmd

 

After getting banned from FierceWireless, I guess it needs another place to troll. 

[Fraydog]

Life is too short to give attention to things like that. Mere trifles in the global scope of things.

 

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[cortney]

Thoughts on this...

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2015/12/07/t-mobile-accused-false-advertising-new-york-ag-investigates/76921524/

 

That was actually quite a common argument by many against the smoke and mirrors stuff from pink.

 

Essentially, they argued that it makes no sense to criticize contracts when you get charged potentially and usually more (for more expensive handsets) by leaving early and getting slapped with the remaining lump sum as opposed to the milder ETFs from the other threes contracts.

 

I'd generally agree. 

[derrph]

That was actually quite a common argument by many against the smoke and mirrors stuff from pink.

 

Essentially, they argued that it makes no sense to criticize contracts when you get charged potentially and usually more (for more expensive handsets) by leaving early and getting slapped with the remaining lump sum as opposed to the milder ETFs from the other threes contracts.

 

I'd generally agree.

I'm not a fan of the installment stuff. I tired to explain to my friend that the installment is costing your more than a contact. All he sees is I'm not in a contract and I had to explain to him that if you get an iPhone that 700+ and let's say you want to switch carriers after 3 months. Your going to be charged 600+ for the remaining balance of that phone as opposed to signing a contact and paying 199-299 for that phone upfront. If in the case you want to leave after 3 months it's $350 or less and that's it. Your installment is your contact and honestly it makes a person harder to leave especially when your have multiple lines.

 

 

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[Fraydog]

I'm not a fan of the installment stuff. I tired to explain to my friend that the installment is costing your more than a contact. All he sees is I'm not in a contract and I had to explain to him that if you get an iPhone that 700+ and let's say you want to switch carriers after 3 months. Your going to be charged 600+ for the remaining balance of that phone as opposed to signing a contact and paying 199-299 for that phone upfront. If in the case you want to leave after 3 months it's $350 or less and that's it. Your installment is your contact and honestly it makes a person harder to leave especially when your have multiple lines.

 

 

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The problem is that you already paid $300 sunk cost with the subsidy. So really it's 300+350 on the old model. Oranges and oranges comparison. The subsidy really was a form of loan with hidden charges on the contract. I wish someone would explain that to the New York AG. I don't think he understands this business at all. 

 

Where was he with the contract model which was, if anything, even more deceptive? He doesn't understand FanDuel or Draft Kings, I don't expect that idiot to understand this industry which is even more complex. 

[cortney]

Seriously, Milan should be advocating for EDGE shutdown first. Fully modernized rural setups would allow for TMo to decommission EDGE and GSM altogether. That is the biggest spectrum savings around for T-Mobile. HSPA is still efficient.

Sure, but -- typical city universe logic. There's no such thing as suburbs or commuter towns. Well maybe some will admit direct suburbs exist and call them commuter towns (which is wrong). It's cities, and then desert and mountains. 

 

Well for those of us in the "rural", 3G is really damn important for edge cases, pesky areas (elevation, for those of us not in flat areas) or older buildings. And this need for 3G will not go away until LTE is really, really dense. 

[Fraydog]

Sure, but -- typical city universe logic. There's no such thing as suburbs or commuter towns. Well maybe some will admit direct suburbs exist and call them commuter towns (which is wrong). It's cities, and then desert and mountains. 

 

Well for those of us in the "rural", 3G is really damn important for edge cases, pesky areas (elevation, for those of us not in flat areas) or older buildings. And this need for 3G will not go away until LTE is really, really dense. 

 

Reed's post stole a lot of my thunder. That said, even if you go off Neville's own charts HSPA is way more efficient. 

 

 

Source: DT Capital Markets Day 2015. Presentation (*.pdf, 35 pages, 3.7 MB)

 

Plus it ensures legacy compatibility. Now if there's areas where they have to go LTE only because of spectrum, I'm fine with that. There's just lots of areas where they still don't have low band where they would be best advised to shut down GSM and go all HSPA/LTE. 

 

T-Mobile has 10 MHz of capacity they can run for a while with HSPA. I don't see the urgency to shut it down. I just don't. Milan and I will have to disagree there. I respect him, but I don't see it the same way. 

 

Edit: Also, international roaming. I don't see the international carriers and handset manufacturers figuring out the mess that is global LTE and VoLTE roaming any time soon. Remember how people shot the gun with VoLTE roaming and US Cellular? I don't think USCC is equipped to do that yet or anytime soon. 

[Arysyn]

Being that I'm in a rush to see technological advancement on a mass scale rapidly, I'd like to see T-Mobile shut down the older technologies, in favor of LTE. As long as LTE is deployed, I don't see much  purpose of keeping older technologies around, other than to serve people who don't have LTE capable devices. LTE has been around long enough though, that there isn't much excuse not to have an LTE capable device, especially when they can be purchased cheaply enough nowadays.

 

T-Mobile should get all areas onto LTE, then shut down the older technologies A.S.A.P. Spectrum wise, it may be what they'll need to do, considering how T-Mobile is fairly low on that spectrum in many areas.

[cortney]

T-Mobile should get all areas onto LTE, then shut down the older technologies A.S.A.P. Spectrum wise, it may be what they'll need to do, considering how T-Mobile is fairly low on that spectrum in many areas.

 

That's not completely wrong. LTE is important in general and it's massively important in cities and the densest parts of metro areas.

 

However for GSM networks, HSPA+ is very necessary (and efficient) for outlying suburban and exurban areas, because LTE simply can not fully cover these areas and low band LTE either isn't available, they've not deployed it yet, or they need something more than low-band. 

 

As I've said before: AT&T, Verizon and Sprint were all competent enough to create virtually ubiquitous (unless on the edge of native coverage) 3G networks and have that fallback no matter how dense an area is - not 100% always for legacy devices. That can't go away for a while although LTE densification and prioritization are indeed inevitable. 

Edited December 8, 2015 by cortney

[cortney]

Yeah, the church of T-Mobile.  That seems about right.

 

AJ

 

This article's got you covered, image-wise. I wonder where they hold the services.

 

Edited December 8, 2015 by cortney

[markjcc]

This article's got you covered, image-wise. I wonder where they hold the services.

 

O Come All Ye 2G

[cortney]

O Come All Ye 2G

 

Come and get that Wi-Fi

Thy doth not get that H +

So mid-band or leave