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T-Mobile LTE & Network Discussion V2


lilotimz

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Yeah I am tempted to use only LTE when I had unlimited and good signal, but that would only bump me to maybe 8-12 gigs from 3-5, not up to some obscene number!

Without tethering IDK how one can manage to rack up 50 gigs let alone any more then that.

In order to do that I'd have to be watching movies all the time or always streaming video content, which I don't have the time to do, nor do I want to do on a small phone screen. Not to mention that would drain the battery too fast.

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so what does everyone consider the threshold for being an "abusive" data user on an unlimited plan to be?

 

i myself use around 20 to 30 gig per month and consider that not to be abusive. I would consider anything 60 gig or more per month to be abusive. most of my data usage comes from streaming videos, and i stream a lot. getting to 60+ would take a lot of streaming and/or you are using it in place of home internet.

 

i did see a few comments in that reddit thread where people on tmobile mentioned having to switch back to their home wifi because of throttling..... that i don't get, if you have home internet/wifi already why would you not be using it???

 

I am usually 2-2.5gb a month.  I have WiFi at work and home and I don't do a lot of video streaming, mostly just sports highlights.  My guess is I am the more typical type of user.  I would have to see the breakdown of all users though to really say what is abuse. What is the average and what is the outlier?

 

Edit:  Actually just checked on the Sprint Website.  12 mo average is 1.99GB.

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Data point:

 

Sprint Customer on ED1500 plan.

 

Last 12 months have ranged from 4.8gb to a high of 22.1gb worth of data in a month.  Average is 13.2gb.

 

I travel weekly for work, and am all over the place.  Only time I offload to WIFI is when I'm at home Fri-Sun, or if Sprint network is too slow to reliably use facetime. 

As others have mentioned, and based off of my data usage habits, I can feel like I can safely say that burning through more than 20gb a month on a phone (without tethering) is going to be extremely difficult.  I feel like I use the **** out of my phone.

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I'm looking forward to the day "Unlimited" plans disappear, because it's never true. No one actually has an Unlimited plan. The sooner people stop asking for it, the sooner carriers can stop pretending this exists.

 

Fake "Unlimited" pricing distorts the entire market for large data. The sooner "Unlimited" goes away, the sooner 10GB / 20GB / 40GB plans start getting priced realistically -- and large data users start getting treated fairly on-network.

 

Ironically, AT&T is sort-of the leader in this, with Cricket's plans. They label their "unlimited" plan honestly ("Pro" as 10GB), just like Sprint/T-Mobile should.

 

- - -

 

 

Here's a simple fix:  Take the 1/3/5/'unlimited' plans, keep the price points all the same, and make the data caps '2/5/10/20gb'. It's transparent, it's fair, there's no secret throttling, everyone's getting something better than they had before, and no one has to worry about 'abuse' of the network or unfairness.

 

They could even advertise it as "another uncarrier move"...

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Well this clears out the "throttling" part.

 

 

Call it 'network management.'  Call it 'throttling'.  Call it whatever you want - peoples speeds are being reduced due to overuse and/or congestion.

 

So unlimited.  Much 'Uncarrier.'

 

doge-600.png

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I'm looking forward to the day "Unlimited" plans disappear, because it's never true. No one actually has an Unlimited plan. The sooner people stop asking for it, the sooner carriers can stop pretending this exists.

 

Fake "Unlimited" pricing distorts the entire market for large data. The sooner "Unlimited" goes away, the sooner 10GB / 20GB / 40GB plans start getting priced realistically -- and large data users start getting treated fairly on-network.

 

Ironically, AT&T is sort-of the leader in this, with Cricket's plans. They label their "unlimited" plan honestly ("Pro" as 10GB), just like Sprint/T-Mobile should.

 

- - -

 

 

Here's a simple fix:  Take the 1/3/5/'unlimited' plans, keep the price points all the same, and make the data caps '2/5/10/20gb'. It's transparent, it's fair, there's no secret throttling, everyone's getting something better than they had before, and no one has to worry about 'abuse' of the network or unfairness.

 

They could even advertise it as "another uncarrier move"...

Sprint and TMO are in a game of chicken; neither wants to be first to abandon unlimited.

Sprint has more spectrum to burn than TMO and certainly not goodwill to sacrifice so TMO will be first to blink.

 

And that's when I'll take my future universal iphone to sprint.

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Sprint and TMO are in a game of chicken; neither wants to be first to abandon unlimited.

Sprint has more spectrum to burn than TMO and certainly not goodwill to sacrifice so TMO will be first to blink.

 

And that's when I'll take my future universal iphone to sprint.

Since Unlimited Data is guaranteed on T-Mobile for at least another 2years (UnCarrier 9), you better start stashing that money for that iPhone 8 in 2017.

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Since Unlimited Data is guaranteed on T-Mobile for at least another 2years (UnCarrier 9), you better start stashing that money for that iPhone 8 in 2017.

About that two year thing, is it two years from TODAY or two years from when someone signs up for TMO?

 

The investor presentation says "guaranteed for two years" but doesn't define start date.

 

?

 

 

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Call it 'network management.'  Call it 'throttling'.  Call it whatever you want - peoples speeds are being reduced due to overuse and/or congestion.

 

So unlimited.  Much 'Uncarrier.'

Yes. Unfortunately, just because it's T-Mobile doesn't mean you can suck 100-500GBs a month at anywhere from 40/10 to 100/30 megabits down/up and it will last. The inevitable has happened, no surprise. They're throttling, no matter what the "UnCarrier" euphemism is.

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Since Unlimited Data is guaranteed on T-Mobile for at least another 2years (UnCarrier 9), you better start stashing that money for that iPhone 8 in 2017.

 

 

About that two year thing, is it two years from TODAY or two years from when someone signs up for TMO?

 

The investor presentation says "guaranteed for two years" but doesn't define start date.

 

?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

That's the guaranteed period that a customer signing up for unlimited TODAY will have unlimited.  They are free to remove the unlimited plans from the lineup at any time.

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from a business standpoint it's a relatively safe move considering their competitors do the exact same thing, but it does reality check that 'OMFG WHAT CAN'T T-MOBILE DO!?' stuff, which is refreshing.

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I'm looking forward to the day "Unlimited" plans disappear, because it's never true. No one actually has an Unlimited plan. The sooner people stop asking for it, the sooner carriers can stop pretending this exists.

 

Fake "Unlimited" pricing distorts the entire market for large data. The sooner "Unlimited" goes away, the sooner 10GB / 20GB / 40GB plans start getting priced realistically -- and large data users start getting treated fairly on-network.

 

Ironically, AT&T is sort-of the leader in this, with Cricket's plans. They label their "unlimited" plan honestly ("Pro" as 10GB), just like Sprint/T-Mobile should.

 

- - -

 

 

Here's a simple fix:  Take the 1/3/5/'unlimited' plans, keep the price points all the same, and make the data caps '2/5/10/20gb'. It's transparent, it's fair, there's no secret throttling, everyone's getting something better than they had before, and no one has to worry about 'abuse' of the network or unfairness.

 

They could even advertise it as "another uncarrier move"...

:goodpost:

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Legere has learned a lesson that Sprint did a few years ago. It is better to have your extreme unlimited data hogs churn. Tmo is making it painful for them, that's why they are making the speed extremely low.

 

They want them to go back to Sprint. Because carriers lose money on the Unlimited abusers who use their wireless service as their personal ISP. Even Legere doesn't want them.

 

Sprint was happy to lose them, and is praying they don't get them back. Because these customers cause pain and consternation to the customers they do want. I wouldn't be surprised if Sprint just follows Tmo here and does the same thing to prevent the abusers from coming back.

 

We predicted this very thing happening. Some vocal abusers said the fact that Tmo allows unlimited without hindrance was evidence that abusers didn't impact the networks and should be allowed to continue to use data at any unreasonable amount as they deem fit. Well, if that was true then, then this is indeed evidence of what abusers do to a network if allowed to. Shut down everyone else's ability to enjoy a robust network and possibly really high consumption occasionally.

 

Well, the Tmo buffet is being shut down. And this is probably not the time to celebrate Sprint's more open unlimited tolerances. Even though they may have more breathing room because of B41, they do impact B25/B26 terribly and causing early capex burn for more B41 capacity before even finish rolling out is terribly impactful to everything. Sprint will also likely join suit in some regard.

 

Using Moto X² on Tapatalk

 

It is interesting to see how the CEO is responding directly to this - this is not learning from Sprint.  I've never seen Hesse or Claure be so direct in responding to throttling claims or respond so directly to a particular reddit thread.

 

 

 But I want to reiterate: we do not throttle 4G LTE unlimited customers. And what I think we’ve decided to do, I’ve talked with the team this morning, is we’re gonna set up a, some sort of a separate forum. Maybe we’ll do a Reddit AMA, or we’ll do a periscope discussion. Just to deep dive into this, so we don’t give you a short answer. But for those of you that are trying to connect this together, and say hey, is T-Mobile throttling – we’re not throttling. And so, let’s take that off to the side, but also make sure you understand that your comments on Reddit, your comments on Twitter, and various forms of email and social media – we are seeing all of them.

 

Legere is a master at marketing and it shows.  With 1.3% churn, it doesn't seem like anyone is leaving T-Mobile.

 

I am guessing this will be the response "..based on customer feedback, we've adjusted our network management practices to allow each customer to have a better experience.  In addition, I've had Ray focus on areas that have been hit with higher demand to increase deployment of wideband LTE in those locations."

 

So in the end, it will probably be a mix of less aggressive throttling, a bit more capacity, and good marketing to make the issue go away.

 

 

Sprint should learn from T-Mobile on how to improve how customers perceive their network.  In areas where Sprint has pretty much fully deployed LTE, the average customer will have a great experience but their marketing doesn't communicate that (at least from my view).

 

Verizon clearly communicates "Never settle, #1"

T-Mobile clearly communicates "Fastest LTE"

Sprint communicates "value" but that's such a vague term.  Value means something different to everyone... they need to work on communicating that "hey our speeds are maybe not the fastest but who really cares?  It works where you want it to work and you'll spend less and get more"

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It is interesting to see how the CEO is responding directly to this - this is not learning from Sprint. I've never seen Hesse or Claure be so direct in responding to throttling claims or respond so directly to a particular reddit thread.

 

 

 

Legere is a master at marketing and it shows. With 1.3% churn, it doesn't seem like anyone is leaving T-Mobile.

 

I am guessing this will be the response "..based on customer feedback, we've adjusted our network management practices to allow each customer to have a better experience. In addition, I've had Ray focus on areas that have been hit with higher demand to increase deployment of wideband LTE in those locations."

 

So in the end, it will probably be a mix of less aggressive throttling, a bit more capacity, and good marketing to make the issue go away.

 

 

Sprint should learn from T-Mobile on how to improve how customers perceive their network. In areas where Sprint has pretty much fully deployed LTE, the average customer will have a great experience but their marketing doesn't communicate that (at least from my view).

 

Verizon clearly communicates "Never settle, #1"

T-Mobile clearly communicates "Fastest LTE"

Sprint communicates "value" but that's such a vague term. Value means something different to everyone... they need to work on communicating that "hey our speeds are maybe not the fastest but who really cares? It works where you want it to work and you'll spend less and get more"

He's pretty clever. He's keeping his good customers from freaking out with his explanations and sleight of hand while still shafting the abusers. He wants the abusers to churn or get within a reasonable usage. But he doesn't want to have a reputation of being a throttler. But the abusers are still going to be whiny as hell.

 

But no matter what he calls it, the abusers are going to have a different experience. And really, I don't have a problem with that. And my biggest thing with this, as it is with Sprint, is I would like defined in a tangible measure what the hell 3% or 5% is. Is that 10GB? 30GB? 50GB? 100GB? Customers deserve to know so they can avoid 'network dehancement' if they choose to.

 

Using Moto X² on Tapatalk

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He's pretty clever. He's keeping his good customers from freaking out with his explanations and sleight of hand while still shafting the abusers. He wants the abusers to churn or get within a reasonable usage. But he doesn't want to have a reputation of being a throttler. But the abusers are still going to be whiny as hell.

 

But no matter what he calls it, the abusers are going to have a different experience. And really, I don't have a problem with that. And my biggest thing with this, as it is with Sprint, is I would like defined in a tangible measure what the hell 3% or 5% is. Is that 10GB? 30GB? 50GB? 100GB? Customers deserve to know so they can avoid 'network dehancement' if they choose to.

 

Using Moto X² on Tapatalk

 

I agree - they should have a monthly chart showing percentile of customers and data usage so customers could have an idea of what to expect but logistically they probably don't want to open that can of worms since I am guessing it is such a moving target (especially by region).

 

At the end of the day, if you can devise a clever way to offer customers unlimited while avoiding (managing?) network abusers, I'd say that's a job well done.

 

Having used both T-Mobile and Sprint networks on the same phone (nexus 6) in Boston - I can say the customer experience at nearly the same price point is so similar.  T-Mobile has faster speeds but Sprint now has ubiquitous LTE coverage at at least 2mbit/sec which is fine for 99% of customers.

 

Most customers aren't going to test drive two networks for months on end to reach that conclusion so they are going to pick based off perceived expectations.  Right now, T-Mobile is appealing to a certain demographic to set those expectations and it seems to be working.  If T-Mobile let customers perceive that they would get screwed (throttled), that does them no marketing favors, even though 97%+ of customers will never be throttled or even use all that much data.

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A friend of mine that works for Sprint's network maintenance (Ericsson) explained how their network management (QoS) works, and T-Mobile's may work in a similar manner.  To simply put it it's not how much data you use within a month its how much you use within a certain specific time frame, someone downloading gigabytes within a few hours versus a user that downloads few gigabytes in weeks.  The network will take a toll with a few users downloading large amounts of data within a few hours or a day versus a user that may be a moderate or heavy user that consumes data over a longer period of time.    

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Legere is a master at marketing and it shows.  With 1.3% churn, it doesn't seem like anyone is leaving T-Mobile.

I'm not so sure about that. Maybe some or most urban customers are staying, but unless it clearly continues, it's a fluke to me.

 

Non-urban T-Mo users are flocking and this is very abundantly evidenced in part by the increase of people giving it back to the trolls on fanboy war-zones like TMoNews and FierceWireless, and throughout social media. This "trolling the trolls" and "fact checking" minority has recently exploded from "one in the bunch" to several on nearly every post, on T-Mobile videos on YouTube, on forums and blogs, etc.

 

From the many stories, much of the ongoing churn ranges from:

-People switching from AT&T, and go over the river and through the woods, back home to Ma Bell.

-People going from Sprint to T-Mobile and heading over to Verizon like everyone else they know uses (still too common :wacko: )

-People who have tried them all recently except AT&T and T-Mobile and after T-Mobile fails, head over to Cricket/GoPhone and are shocked how close/superior AT&T's coverage is to Verizon and how the 10-year-old FUD perceptions everyone has/had were untrue

-People ditching VZW and using T-Mobile to try them and for the ETF payment, then take their new GSM phone once unlocked to AT&T

 

And so on so forth.

 

There are also certain T-Mobile users that only use them as a secondary (so even though they hate the service a portion or most of the time, they technically haven't left yet to contribute to the churn), and are getting fed up and considering leaving. Many T-Mobile users are also staying with spotty service, "backhaulless" 3G or as bad as sporadic 2G with non/partner service in hopes it will improve, but they will also eventually get fed up and leave. 

 

My intentions are not to rail T-Mobile and discredit them or their progress, however I'm sick and tired of the constant and excessive benefit of the doubt, defending, and praising of magenta from many people in one way or another (this rant is not towards you, but in general).

 

I do want them to be around with Sprint to give it back to the big two and help for competition's sake. However, for those who do not inhabit a 3-5 block radius in a concrete jungle their whole lives, or live in the lucky areas with a little B12 and denser coverage even extending a bit into some suburbs: the problems often far outweigh the benefits of the occasional islands of LTE and fast speeds for the e-penis. If Sprint isn't in these many many areas yet, it's "two" or nothing.

 

T-Mobile is just not a non-urban competitor, and it sucks. 

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I currently still have MetroPCS, though I signed up for Sprint earlier today and am waiting for the device/service to arrive here (Nexus 6). I signed up for MetroPCS a few months ago during their Unlimited $50 promotion, had an excellent customer service experience with the nice lady at the local store who has been there when my mother goes to pay the bill. She's been very helpful to us ever since, and I sort of feel sad that we won't be keeping the service, but then again I need workable coverage locally.

 

I suffer from a severe neuropathic illness/disability, where I have trouble maintaining balance while walking, have very poor mobility overall, and have horrible pain when not actively on pain medication. I'm also alone quite often, which isn't good, though I enjoy spending time online researching and learning about technical stuff, particularly wireless, though my time mobile, such as walking to and from places alone, is a major risk to my health, requiring me to have a workable wireless signal on my phone device, so I can contact my mother for help, if needed in a non-emergency, though still very crucial urgency.

 

MetroPCS has fast speeds here in the Chicago Market while outside traveling around the area and such, but inside the home here in this suburb, a house that is wooden and slightly stucco, often loses a signal, even though I'm usually right near a window. I think that is really bad, especially when T-Mobile's newer coverage map shows users around here reporting an excellent signal. I'm not even talking about a drop in data speeds, but a total signal loss on a new ZTE ZMAX device that gets good to great signal most places outside.

 

T-Mobile isn't actively recognizing their network/spectrum issues in the Chicago Market, which really upsets me, while they promote their supposed "great" service, along with their new 700 mhz, that isn't even in Chicago, let alone they may never get to the 600 mhz here they really need, while their overcrowded network here in Chicago just gets worse with their steep advertising. A sure sign of incompetence or ignorance, perhaps both by them, in regards to being honest about their business among their attempts in persuading people they are "Data Strong".

 

The posts here recommending methods which Sprint can use to advertise/identify their company, are very good. I've been thinking about that too, even ways which Marcelo can use publicity to identify himself as the "professional CEO".. I'm already impressed by all the various bits about Sprint that have led me to signing up for them that I think would be good for Sprint to use publicly in promoting their company really well. Building a Sprint fan base implemented in Sprint strategy, would be a positive step, I think. Sprint could even search out people on S4GRU and other fan sites to help out, possibly.

 

Anything to combat T-Mobile's lies at this point, I'm thinking. I've had enough bad experiences with them between this latest MetroPCS network issue, among others in the past with their pre-paid services, along with failed attempts at post-paid with them, all which among their faulty advertisements, makes me really against them. However, looking at it more neutrally, it just seems fair that some company would try reversing this trend for the benefit of the industry from becoming too false with their claims, whether it be about the network, or even the limits to what Unlimited Data really means to the companies providing it.

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I'm not so sure about that. Maybe some or most urban customers are staying, but unless it clearly continues, it's a fluke to me.

 

Non-urban T-Mo users are flocking and this is very abundantly evidenced in part by the increase of people giving it back to the trolls on fanboy war-zones like TMoNews and FierceWireless, and throughout social media. This "trolling the trolls" and "fact checking" minority has recently exploded from "one in the bunch" to several on nearly every post, on T-Mobile videos on YouTube, on forums and blogs, etc.

 

From the many stories, much of the ongoing churn ranges from:

-People switching from AT&T, and go over the river and through the woods, back home to Ma Bell.

-People going from Sprint to T-Mobile and heading over to Verizon like everyone else they know uses (still too common :wacko: )

-People who have tried them all recently except AT&T and T-Mobile and after T-Mobile fails, head over to Cricket/GoPhone and are shocked how close/superior AT&T's coverage is to Verizon and how the 10-year-old FUD perceptions everyone has/had were untrue

-People ditching VZW and using T-Mobile to try them and for the ETF payment, then take their new GSM phone once unlocked to AT&T

 

And so on so forth.

 

There are also certain T-Mobile users that only use them as a secondary (so even though they hate the service a portion or most of the time, they technically haven't left yet to contribute to the churn), and are getting fed up and considering leaving. Many T-Mobile users are also staying with spotty service, "backhaulless" 3G or as bad as sporadic 2G with non/partner service in hopes it will improve, but they will also eventually get fed up and leave.

 

My intentions are not to rail T-Mobile and discredit them or their progress, however I'm sick and tired of the constant and excessive benefit of the doubt, defending, and praising of magenta from many people in one way or another (this rant is not towards you, but in general).

 

I do want them to be around with Sprint to give it back to the big two and help for competition's sake. However, for those who do not inhabit a 3-5 block radius in a concrete jungle their whole lives, or live in the lucky areas with a little B12 and denser coverage even extending a bit into some suburbs: the problems often far outweigh the benefits of the occasional islands of LTE and fast speeds for the e-penis. If Sprint isn't in these many many areas yet, it's "two" or nothing.

 

T-Mobile is just not a non-urban competitor, and it sucks.

Have you seen the DT capital markets day slide of coverage improvement?

They're increasing lte coverage from 0.6 to 1.6 mil sq miles EoY 2015.

 

I don't live in a concrete jungle and lte coverage is good (suburbs), some parts fall to Hspa outside.

 

In conference call they said they're not relying on getting more 700a to reach 300mil lte.

 

Don't know if there will be densification for not so well covered suburbs.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Have you seen the DT capital markets day slide of coverage improvement?

They're increasing lte coverage from 0.6 to 1.6 mil sq miles EoY 2015.

 

DTCapMarketsCoverage.png

 

I do not believe that map.  It is wildly optimistic.  A project of that size is just not that easy.  Otherwise, Sprint or T-Mobile would have done it years ago.  No, some factor or another will keep T-Mobile from fully realizing that goal by the end of the year.  

 

The costs of adding thousands of new sites could prove too expensive, and funding could be scaled back.  Along similar lines, the timeframe required to add that many new sites could prove too short, extending the project by months or years.

 

On the other hand, if T-Mobile actually does cover the map as projected by the end of the year, it will be low density, low quality coverage.  Just toss up a site every 25 miles and call it a day.  That is what we call a superficial gesture.  It technically may fill in the map, but it will not fill in coverage in real world usage.  And I do not consider that a goal accomplished.

 

AJ

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Is 15-20 GB a month abusive?

 

In my opinion, I don't think it is. Some people who consider 5gb to be a high data use, might consider 15-20 gb abusive, though the way I look at it, is normal internet use being half a gb to a gb for up to three hours online, with anything from multimedia webpages to viewing videos on youtube and listening to hifi streaming music. Doing this once every day, will lead to a 15gb to 30gb per month usage, which seems normal to me. Then again, my days aren't that busy, which if people take into account the limited time a person might have to be on their device when they aren't working, 5gb per month seems the average to high usage. It just really depends on the viewpoint.

 

I'd personally hope that no one considers anything under 30gb per month as abusive though. I'd even suggest a ceiling of 60gb, maybe 90gb per month as time goes on where 4k video streaming becomes the norm, but beyond that, then it does start looking like home internet replacement usage, which many people seem to consider abusive.

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