T-Mobile LTE & Network Discussion V2

[payturr]

After thinking about this for a while, I doubt Sprint is going to get either T-Mobile or Dish. I think what will happen is if AT&T doesn't get T-Mobile, Dish will. If AT&T does get T-Mobile, then Verizon will get Dish. Although I've been quite the supporter of AT&T getting T-Mobile, I'm thinking it is more likely that Dish will get T-Mobile, which would set up a good, strong competitive situation between that of Dish/T-Mobile and AT&T/DirecTv.

 

Verizon is going to need extra spectrum eventually, as they currently have the least spectrum per customer of all wireless carriers. From that perspective, I can envision Sprint breaking up as the result of Softbank's desire to sell Sprint if it can't get T-Mobile or some other thing accomplished Masayoshi Son might have in mind, figuring how difficult it is to figure out the true intentions he has. After all, he originally claimed to having wanted a strong U.S. carrier, yet he seems unwilling to spend the money necessary on network improvements for Sprint, in order to do this.

None of that is happening. T-Mobile is getting Dish. T-Mobile's financials are superior, and at this point I doubt DT wants to give them up. 5 years ago T-Mobile US was a burden but now it's an easy way to make money, it would be stupid for them to throw that away. Acquiring Dish would mean DT gets even more value and income, so there's no reason why they would want to throw away a great opportunity like that. AT&T will not get T-Mobile because, first of all, they cannot afford T-Mobile with all the debt they've created through major multi billion dollar purchases, and second of all, no one will let them get away with it. All eyes are on AT&T for the crap they're trying to pull with Time Warner. And again, even if AT&T COULD do it, I doubt DT would throw away a crown jewel.

[ericdabbs]

None of that is happening. T-Mobile is getting Dish. T-Mobile's financials are superior, and at this point I doubt DT wants to give them up. 5 years ago T-Mobile US was a burden but now it's an easy way to make money, it would be stupid for them to throw that away. Acquiring Dish would mean DT gets even more value and income, so there's no reason why they would want to throw away a great opportunity like that. AT&T will not get T-Mobile because, first of all, they cannot afford T-Mobile with all the debt they've created through major multi billion dollar purchases, and second of all, no one will let them get away with it. All eyes are on AT&T for the crap they're trying to pull with Time Warner. And again, even if AT&T COULD do it, I doubt DT would throw away a crown jewel.

I would really love to see Tmobile grab Dish network.  They have a lot of spectrum especially in the AWS-3 band, S-band and Sprint's beloved PCS 'H' block that is just ripe and ready for deployment and I know Tmobile would make great use of it and actually deploy the spectrum instead of just talking about it.  That would really help solidify Tmobile's mid band spectrum portfolio and make them a stronger competitor.

[Arysyn]

None of that is happening. T-Mobile is getting Dish. T-Mobile's financials are superior, and at this point I doubt DT wants to give them up. 5 years ago T-Mobile US was a burden but now it's an easy way to make money, it would be stupid for them to throw that away. Acquiring Dish would mean DT gets even more value and income, so there's no reason why they would want to throw away a great opportunity like that. AT&T will not get T-Mobile because, first of all, they cannot afford T-Mobile with all the debt they've created through major multi billion dollar purchases, and second of all, no one will let them get away with it. All eyes are on AT&T for the crap they're trying to pull with Time Warner. And again, even if AT&T COULD do it, I doubt DT would throw away a crown jewel.

Well, hopefully for DT's and T-Mobile's benefit, they are able to acquire Dish. I've thought that to be a good partnership for quite some time. Anyways, AT&T obviously isn't doing so well as I thought. They are quite far behind Verizon and T-Mobile in the recent OpenSignal reports, and that is quite bad, considering they have great spectrum assets and years of positive acquisitions, at least those relating to the U.S. wireless market.

 

We'll see what happens...

[avb]

I would really love to see Tmobile grab Dish network.  They have a lot of spectrum especially in the AWS-3 band, S-band and Sprint's beloved PCS 'H' block that is just ripe and ready for deployment and I know Tmobile would make great use of it and actually deploy the spectrum instead of just talking about it.  That would really help solidify Tmobile's mid band spectrum portfolio and make them a stronger competitor.

 

Weren't there limitations on that 'H' block that make it not as useful?  Something regarding max transmission power was limited compared to the G band.

[ericdabbs]

Weren't there limitations on that 'H' block that make it not as useful?  Something regarding max transmission power was limited compared to the G band.

 

Actually that would have been true for Sprint if they owned the H block since it would have been neighbored the S-band.  However since Dish owns both the PCS H block and the neighboring AWS-4 (S-band) block I don't know if that is still very much the case.  In fact LTE band 70 which was assigned by the 3GPP (1695-1710 MHz uplink and 1995-2020 MHz downlink) combines the H-block and AWS-4 (S-band spectrum).

 

It doesn't seem like Dish will use the original PCS H block uplink spectrum (1915-1920 MHz) that was assigned to it which would have caused some power issues on the uplink.

[S4GRU]

I'm up in British Columbia for the President's Day weekend. Getting 50Mbps speeds using B2+B4 CA on Telus. It's amazing that I can be in another country and still be able to use my Tmo unlimited data. On LTE no less.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[miggity]

Actually that would have been true for Sprint if they owned the H block since it would have been neighbored the S-band.  However since Dish owns both the PCS H block and the neighboring AWS-4 (S-band) block I don't know if that is still very much the case.  In fact LTE band 70 which was assigned by the 3GPP (1695-1710 MHz uplink and 1995-2020 MHz downlink) combines the H-block and AWS-4 (S-band spectrum).

 

Yeah, the S-Band uplink was repackaged into downlink in band 70 along with PCS H downlink.  The S-Band downlink was repackaged into the downlink of band 66 along with AWS-3 and AWS-1. So both those bands, 66 and 70, are asymmetric. They both have more downlink bandwidth. 

 

I believe Dish owns the entirety of Band 70. So that's a pretty sweet, though boutique, 25x15 package to go along with an awesome band 66 portfolio, including nationwide 20 MHz down.

[Arysyn]

Yeah, the S-Band uplink was repackaged into downlink in band 70 along with PCS H downlink. The S-Band downlink was repackaged into the downlink of band 66 along with AWS-3 and AWS-1. So both those bands, 66 and 70, are asymmetric. They both have more downlink bandwidth.

 

I believe Dish owns the entirety of Band 70. So that's a pretty sweet, though boutique, 25x15 package to go along with an awesome band 66 portfolio, including nationwide 20 MHz down.

Dish has great spectrum assets that would be very helpful to any carrier. However at the moment, the most likely carriers that would get Dish, is Verizon, which really needs the extra spectrum now they have both unlimited data and have among the most customers in competition to AT&T, which also has DirecTv to compete with. Verizon would be the perfect match for Dish.

 

The other likely carrier to get Dish, is T-Mobile, so long as T-Mobile does not merge with Sprint, because the three of them together would create a huge spectrum lead that would be too much of a competitive advantage. Besides, the FCC generally, although not always, has been seen to protect the interests of AT&T and Verizon. I doubt they'd allow for such a massive competitor to them which would have such an extreme advantage.

[ericdabbs]

Looks like Tmobile will be one of the two carriers to launch LTE-U who desperately need to add capacity. This is definitely a great move for Tmobile. LTE-U will mainly be deployed via small cells and Nokia and Ericcson equipment's equipment was just certified by the FCC today.

 

I wonder if Sprint will be doing the same anytime soon but then again they have a ton of 2.5 GHz spectrum that they have yet to deploy.

 

http://www.tmonews.com/2017/02/t-mobile-launching-lte-u-spring-2017-increase-lte-capacity/

[Fraydog]

Looks like Tmobile will be the first carrier to launch LTE-U who desperately need to add capacity. This is definitely a great move for Tmobile. LTE-U will mainly be deployed via small cells and Nokia and Ericcson equipment's equipment was just certified by the FCC today.

 

I wonder if Sprint will be doing the same anytime soon but then again they have a ton of 2.5 GHz spectrum that they have yet to deploy.

 

http://www.tmonews.com/2017/02/t-mobile-launching-lte-u-spring-2017-increase-lte-capacity/

Verizon is launching LTE-U as well and already has a LOT more small cells in the field. Verizon will be greatly helped by T-Mobile pushing through LTE-U.

 

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[ericdabbs]

Verizon is launching LTE-U as well and already has a LOT more small cells in the field. Verizon will be greatly helped by T-Mobile pushing through LTE-U.

 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

 

Oh good to know.  I didn't know that Verizon was also planning to launch LTE-U.  I guess it is important for them to launch LTE-U given the announcement of the new Unlimited plan.

[RAvirani]

Yeah, the S-Band uplink was repackaged into downlink in band 70 along with PCS H downlink. The S-Band downlink was repackaged into the downlink of band 66 along with AWS-3 and AWS-1. So both those bands, 66 and 70, are asymmetric. They both have more downlink bandwidth.

 

I believe Dish owns the entirety of Band 70. So that's a pretty sweet, though boutique, 25x15 package to go along with an awesome band 66 portfolio, including nationwide 20 MHz down.

So, if I am correct, Dish has:

- 6 MHz 700 E Block (722-728)

- 10 MHz PCS H Block (1915-1920, 1995-2000)

- 15 MHz of AWS-3 (1695-1710)

- 20 MHz of AWS-4 (2000-2200)

 

And Band 70 is:

- Downlink: PCS H Block downlink + AWS-4

- Uplink: AWS-3

 

Will the PCS H Block uplink be abandoned? Or maybe paired with their 700 MHz somehow?

[tybo31316]

Does anyone know how long after the Nokia Band 2/12 panels is installed to a site does it take for the signals to come online?

[red_dog007]

So, if I am correct, Dish has:

- 6 MHz 700 E Block (722-728)

- 10 MHz PCS H Block (1915-1920, 1995-2000)

- 15 MHz of AWS-3 (1695-1710)

- 20 MHz of AWS-4 (2000-2200)

 

And Band 70 is:

- Downlink: PCS H Block downlink + AWS-4

- Uplink: AWS-3

 

Will the PCS H Block uplink be abandoned? Or maybe paired with their 700 MHz somehow?

They have 40MHz of AWS4. 2000-2020 and 2180-2200.

[ericdabbs]

They have 40MHz of AWS4. 2000-2020 and 2180-2200.

 

Yes but initially Dish's plan was to use 2180-2200 spectrum as the downlink and 2000-2020 spectrum as the uplink when they first obtained the AWS-4 licenses.  However when Dish bought the PCS H block licenses in 2014, they decided to convert 2000-2020 spectrum to downlink i so that the 1995-2000 spectrum can be a contiguous 25 MHz downlink stream for more bandwidth and combine the 1695-1710 spectrum as the uplink.  Otherwise there would be massive interference with 1995-2000 as downlink and 2000-2020 as the uplink which would reduce the efficiency of the 1995-2000 spectrum.

 

So the real question is what is Dish going to do with the 2180-2200 spectrum and 1915-1920 spectrum.  Can they possible combine them to make aggregated uplink in the future?

[red_dog007]

Yes but initially Dish's plan was to use 2180-2200 spectrum as the downlink and 2000-2020 spectrum as the uplink when they first obtained the AWS-4 licenses. However when Dish bought the PCS H block licenses in 2014, they decided to convert 2000-2020 spectrum to downlink i so that the 1995-2000 spectrum can be a contiguous 25 MHz downlink stream for more bandwidth and combine the 1695-1710 spectrum as the uplink. Otherwise there would be massive interference with 1995-2000 as downlink and 2000-2020 as the uplink which would reduce the efficiency of the 1995-2000 spectrum.

 

So the real question is what is Dish going to do with the 2180-2200 spectrum and 1915-1920 spectrum. Can they possible combine them to make aggregated uplink in the future?

Band 66 = 2180-2200 DL

Band 70 = 1695-1710 / 1995-2020. This is deployable in 5, 10, 15MHz chunks.

Band 29 = 700E

 

Then they just CA all that. 15x15 B70 would be the main carrier, then just CA 10MHz B70 + 20MHz B66 + 5MHz B29 on the DL side.

 

Not accounting the sporadic AWS3 they have. They could do all kinds of CA mixes based on a markets need.

Edited February 24, 2017 by red_dog007

[RAvirani]

Yes but initially Dish's plan was to use 2180-2200 spectrum as the downlink and 2000-2020 spectrum as the uplink when they first obtained the AWS-4 licenses. However when Dish bought the PCS H block licenses in 2014, they decided to convert 2000-2020 spectrum to downlink i so that the 1995-2000 spectrum can be a contiguous 25 MHz downlink stream for more bandwidth and combine the 1695-1710 spectrum as the uplink. Otherwise there would be massive interference with 1995-2000 as downlink and 2000-2020 as the uplink which would reduce the efficiency of the 1995-2000 spectrum.

 

So the real question is what is Dish going to do with the 2180-2200 spectrum and 1915-1920 spectrum. Can they possible combine them to make aggregated uplink in the future?

Not sure if this is practical, but could Dish potentially pair their AWS-4 downlink spectrum with their 700 MHz spectrum in such a way that 2180-2200 would be used for downlink and 722-728 would be used for uplink? Power levels at cell sites could be turned up incredibly high because uplink would almost never fail before downlink and a 20 MHz downlink carrier would be useful at very low signal levels...again, not sure if this is practical but could this potentially work?

[WiWavelength]

Not sure if this is practical, but could Dish potentially pair their AWS-4 downlink spectrum with their 700 MHz spectrum in such a way that 2180-2200 would be used for downlink and 722-728 would be used for uplink?

 

No.  Lower 700 MHz E block cannot be used as uplink.

 

AJ

[RAvirani]

No. Lower 700 MHz E block cannot be used as uplink.

 

AJ

Why is that?

[WiWavelength]

Why is that?

 

Because unpaired spectrum that is classified as downlink and adjacent to downlink cannot be used as uplink.

 

AJ

[RAvirani]

Because unpaired spectrum that is classified as downlink and adjacent to downlink cannot be used as uplink.

 

AJ

Oh right. Makes sense.

[tybo31316]

Band 66 = 2180-2200 DL

Band 70 = 1695-1710 / 1995-2020. This is deployable in 5, 10, 15MHz chunks.

Band 29 = 700E

 

Then they just CA all that. 15x15 B70 would be the main carrier, then just CA 10MHz B70 + 20MHz B66 + 5MHz B29 on the DL side.

 

Not accounting the sporadic AWS3 they have. They could do all kinds of CA mixes based on a markets need.

If TMobile can get their hands on this spectrum all three national carrier's will be in a world of trouble.

[ericdabbs]

If TMobile can get their hands on this spectrum all three national carrier's will be in a world of trouble.

 

Well who knows what is going to happen if serious negotiations between Tmobile and Sprint occur and a merger is proposed. Tmobile would obviously have to forgo any buyout of Dish in hopes that a Sprint merger is successful.

[Arysyn]

Considering the unique nature of Dish's spectrum, I'm figuring current handsets won't be able to take advantage of this spectrum, correct? If they do, then the matter is much more simple and Dish is open to any merger possibility, where I'm led to believe will be between either T-Mobile or Verizon.

 

However, if new radios are needed to accommodate this spectrum, then this seriously impacts the likelihood T-Mobile would get Dish, as I can't believe smartphone manufacturers all would accommodate T-Mobile's particular spectrum for a few reasons. This isn't like band 41 that is widely used elsewhere from my knowledge, it isn't as crucial to a company's success as band 41 is to Sprint, being that it is Sprint's largest spectrum asset, and also because while T-Mobile is growing, it still doesn't have the size and scope of a carrier such as AT&T and Verizon.

 

So, if new handsets are needed, I believe Dish would more likely sell to Verizon, instead of T-Mobile, in order to get smartphone manufacturers to include this spectrum on their radios.

[tybo31316]

Considering the unique nature of Dish's spectrum, I'm figuring current handsets won't be able to take advantage of this spectrum, correct? If they do, then the matter is much more simple and Dish is open to any merger possibility, where I'm led to believe will be between either T-Mobile or Verizon.

 

However, if new radios are needed to accommodate this spectrum, then this seriously impacts the likelihood T-Mobile would get Dish, as I can't believe smartphone manufacturers all would accommodate T-Mobile's particular spectrum for a few reasons. This isn't like band 41 that is widely used elsewhere from my knowledge, it isn't as crucial to a company's success as band 41 is to Sprint, being that it is Sprint's largest spectrum asset, and also because while T-Mobile is growing, it still doesn't have the size and scope of a carrier such as AT&T and Verizon.

 

So, if new handsets are needed, I believe Dish would more likely sell to Verizon, instead of T-Mobile, in order to get smartphone manufacturers to include this spectrum on their radios.

Getting radios added to phones and devices isn't an issue. The bands are already certified by the 3GPP. Tmobile would have to install new gear and customers have to get new phones. In which the same thing happens now OEMs make devices to accommodate Sprint's 1x800. Most people are switching phones almost yearly when the new iPhones or Galaxies come out anyways. So the issues you think it's going to cause is almost non existent.