Google announces Project Fi: Partners with Sprint and T-Mobile for Network Access (previous title: Google to start it's own Wireless Service; using T-Mobile/Sprint for it's Network Footprint.)

[Fraydog]

 

Ting (17 minutes in) "We have seen many improvements in many markets with Sprint coverage." 

[Fraydog]

It's funny to see people post things like "just use Skype / Hangouts / FaceTime / etc". Perhaps these people haven't actually used VoLTE much -- because while technologically VoLTE is similar, the experience on VoLTE is much better in most metrics (call setup time, call quality, latency, tower handoffs, QoS / reliability) while requiring zero effort to setup or maintain (No extra dial screens, no extra apps to constantly keep running, no battery penalty while idle, no extra accounts, etc)

 

Add in the fact that on properly-managed networks, VoLTE falls back to 3G and then 2G anyway, so you loose almost no voice coverage, and it's an obvious win. Skype / FaceTime can't match that. And while there are still a few rough edges with VoLTE, it's a lot more reliable in day-to-day use than you might expect. (And significantly more reliable than trying to do a FaceTime / Skype call over LTE).

 

VoLTE "just works", and pretty well most of the time.

 

But I get it. Sprint doesn't do VoLTE yet and can't/won't for a good while. So we're supposed to pretend it's no big deal, or an afterthought, or some other silly excuse. I hear that. I understand.

 

But, in the real world, VoLTE is actually pretty nice. Head to a city with solid dual-band LTE coverage, and try it out VoLTE sometime (on any carrier). You might just like it.

 

I am overall for the industry moving all packet switched and killing off the circuit switched infrastructure in time, but come on down to Chester sometime where Verizon can't even cover the whole town properly.  Then again I might not be one of the people here who have tried out VoLTE. I'm sure it works outstandingly in an urban environment. Then again, even T-Mobile people have complaints:

 

 

http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php/1850225-Odd-(and-annoying)-VoLTE-issues

 

I'm not saying it's a bad technology at all. It's a great one. I just want all the bugs worked out. Let the T-Mobile folk be the beta testers. Sprint can't afford to be the beta at this point. 

[Ascertion]

Am I the only one that prefers 1x for voice? LTE is way more fragile and 1x is a monster w/ it's voice quality.

 

I think Google will probably make it an LTE only service which will be interesting but it will lack the coverage of that of 1x.

 

Sent from my M8

[maxsilver]

I am overall for the industry moving all packet switched and killing off the circuit switched infrastructure in time, but come on down to Chester sometime where Verizon can't even cover the whole town properly.  Then again I might not be one of the people here who have tried out VoLTE.

Oh, and by the way. I took a buddy of mine who has T-mo to my family's house in rural WV. No service..no calls, no data. T mobile will always be irrelevant (in my experience) until they build out rural coverage.

 

But I get it. T mobile doesn't do voice coverage yet in rural america and can't/won't for a good while. So we're supposed to pretend it's no big deal, or an afterthought, or some other silly excuse. I hear that. I understand.

 

 

There's no need to invent fake claims and strawman arguments.

 

I never said T-Mobile was good in rural areas. (They obviously aren't -- they haven't even finished covering urban areas yet). I never even mentioned T-Mobile at all (hint: Verizon and ATT have VoLTE too. Don't assume I'm talking about just T-Mobile)

 

I also specifically said, in that post, to travel to a city with dual band LTE coverage, to get a good experience.

Rural connectivity sucks, I agree 100%. But that's not a fault of VoLTE as a technology, just as you wouldn't blame LTE as a technology for bad coverage in rural areas. That's a fault of poor network rollout. Blame your respective providers (T-Mobile, Verizon, whoever) for their poor service in those areas.

 

 

I'm sure it works outstandingly in an urban environment.

 

It's not perfect, but I think it's really good. A lot better than the posts here would seem to imply.

 

We have folks in the office who leave their Verizon iPhones to VoLTE 24/7. If you never leave the suburbs, Verizon is dense enough here that it works fine. (And you can always just turn VoLTE off if you head out to the rural areas. It only takes ten seconds to switch it off)

 

- - 

 

(and to bring the thread back on topic) VoLTE is good enough on carriers today that, with proper data handoff between Sprint and T-Mobile, I think Google could launch a competitive MVNO using it in urban / suburban areas. 

 

At least, I would buy a Google SIM in a heartbeat if it did VoLTE, and had voice+text+data access to both Sprint and T-Mobile simultaneously. Even if that meant calls dropped from VoLTE to 1x on Sprint.

 

I also don't think it's a given that Google would have to drop calls from VoLTE to 1x. They could brute-force fix the problem in a similar way that Republic Wireless does for Wifi to 1x call handoffs on Sprint today

[lou99/maximus1987]

Am I the only one that prefers 1x for voice? LTE is way more fragile and 1x is a monster w/ it's voice quality.

 

I think Google will probably make it an LTE only service which will be interesting but it will lack the coverage of that of 1x.

 

Sent from my M8

No. Absolutely not. For reasons you stated.

[JossMan]

Am I the only one that prefers 1x for voice? LTE is way more fragile and 1x is a monster w/ it's voice quality.

 

I think Google will probably make it an LTE only service which will be interesting but it will lack the coverage of that of 1x.

 

Sent from my M8

I agree with you, with most of the hardware upgrades complete and 1x Advanced coupled with HD Voice there really is no reason to have VoLTE at the moment. 

[lou99/maximus1987]

Is it possible to create the baseband for the phone so that it can choose between two lte networks? Not pulling data simultaneously from two just choosing the lte network at the beginning of the data session.

[WiWavelength]

Is it possible to create the baseband for the phone so that it can choose between two lte networks? Not pulling data simultaneously from two just choosing the lte network at the beginning of the data session.

 

That is a SIM card and back end provisioning issue, not a baseband issue.

 

AJ

[Deval]

With all the speculation going around, I'm actually curious as to what Google's plans really are, and how things will shape up. There hasn't been any official announcement, other than the leaked info.

[lou99/maximus1987]

That is a SIM card and back end provisioning issue, not a baseband issue.

 

AJ

What about on the 3G side? Is it possible for qualcomm, with simply a software mod, to choose 1x vs wcdma?

[dedub]

Yup a lot of arguing about speculation.

 

Anyway, there are pro's and con's to VOLTE/VOIP, some are ignoring the pro's for the cons and vice versa.

 

In well covered area's, volte/voip;

- shifts the burden to LTE, enabling either more standard voice capacity, or potential re-farming of extra carriers for LTE usage.

- potentially enables advice telephony and HD services 

- can hand-over to standard voice (either a soft or hard hand-off depending on implementation) where needed.

 

In not so well covered areas, volte/voip;

- basically doesn't matter and has no effect on standard voice services.

- is an option to use over WIFI, there by increasing coverage to anywhere with accessible internet.

 

So, VOLTE/VOIP is not the end all be all solution, however it does alleviate some burden off the traditional voice network, and it can theoretically allow coverage from any internet connection and device (including tablets, laptops, and desktop computers).

[Fraydog]

I also specifically said, in that post, to travel to a city with dual band LTE coverage, to get a good experience.

Rural connectivity sucks, I agree 100%. But that's not a fault of VoLTE as a technology, just as you wouldn't blame LTE as a technology for bad coverage in rural areas. That's a fault of poor network rollout. Blame your respective providers (T-Mobile, Verizon, whoever) for their poor service in those areas.

 

It's not perfect, but I think it's really good. A lot better than the posts here would seem to imply.

 

We have folks in the office who leave their Verizon iPhones to VoLTE 24/7. If you never leave the suburbs, Verizon is dense enough here that it works fine. (And you can always just turn VoLTE off if you head out to the rural areas. It only takes ten seconds to switch it off)

 

(and to bring the thread back on topic) VoLTE is good enough on carriers today that, with proper data handoff between Sprint and T-Mobile, I think Google could launch a competitive MVNO using it in urban / suburban areas. 

 

Max, I was speaking of Verizon VoLTE in Chester. AT&T has LTE here but not VoLTE here and T-Mobile has neither LTE nor VoLTE here. 

 

But yeah, Verizon probably needs to build tower number three here for the part of town (SW) where service falls apart. Otherwise some people may switch off to AT&T that doesn't have the handoff issues and at worst falls to 8-10 Mbps UMTS/HSPA+.

[lou99/maximus1987]

There's no need to invent fake claims and strawman arguments.

 

I never said T-Mobile was good in rural areas. (They obviously aren't -- they haven't even finished covering urban areas yet). I never even mentioned T-Mobile at all (hint: Verizon and ATT have VoLTE too. Don't assume I'm talking about just T-Mobile)

 

I also specifically said, in that post, to travel to a city with dual band LTE coverage, to get a good experience.

Rural connectivity sucks, I agree 100%. But that's not a fault of VoLTE as a technology, just as you wouldn't blame LTE as a technology for bad coverage in rural areas. That's a fault of poor network rollout. Blame your respective providers (T-Mobile, Verizon, whoever) for their poor service in those areas.

 

 

 

It's not perfect, but I think it's really good. A lot better than the posts here would seem to imply.

 

We have folks in the office who leave their Verizon iPhones to VoLTE 24/7. If you never leave the suburbs, Verizon is dense enough here that it works fine. (And you can always just turn VoLTE off if you head out to the rural areas. It only takes ten seconds to switch it off)

 

- -

 

(and to bring the thread back on topic) VoLTE is good enough on carriers today that, with proper data handoff between Sprint and T-Mobile, I think Google could launch a competitive MVNO using it in urban / suburban areas.

 

At least, I would buy a Google SIM in a heartbeat if it did VoLTE, and had voice+text+data access to both Sprint and T-Mobile simultaneously. Even if that meant calls dropped from VoLTE to 1x on Sprint.

 

I also don't think it's a given that Google would have to drop calls from VoLTE to 1x. They could brute-force fix the problem in a similar way that Republic Wireless does for Wifi to 1x call handoffs on Sprint today

How does rw handle it?

[NateC]

How does rw handle it?

 

RW calls are VoIP on WiFi and "voice" on cellular connections (using a temporary Sprint phone number that's bridged to RW's backend).  Though RW hasn't spoken out about how their handoffs work, presumably WiFi -> Cell call handoff works by custom firmware on the RW handset quietly initiating the cell call in the background when the WiFi signal gets weak, allowing them to quickly switch once the WiFi connection is disrupted.

[lou99/maximus1987]

RW calls are VoIP on WiFi and "voice" on cellular connections (using a temporary Sprint phone number that's bridged to RW's backend). Though RW hasn't spoken out about how their handoffs work, presumably WiFi -> Cell call handoff works by custom firmware on the RW handset quietly initiating the cell call in the background when the WiFi signal gets weak, allowing them to quickly switch once the WiFi connection is disrupted.

So why couldn't sprint use that mechanism for its volte to 1x transitions?

[mhammett]

They could afford to give things away because their cost per search is low because they own the infrastructure.

You can't survive selling things at a loss. What he was trying to say was that Google's revenue isn't from the services they sell to you and me, but the ads they sell. This would just enable better data gathering to further that cause.

[Conan Kudo]

So why couldn't sprint use that mechanism for its volte to 1x transitions?

Because the only reason it works is because Wi-Fi is a second radio. Since there's only one cellular radio, you can't be simultaneously connected to multiple cellular systems.

[lazydog]

With Google voice, you are essentially on a conference call with you, your caller, and Google. If 1 person on a conference call drops off, the call can keep going. So if your VOIP drops, Google could put the call on hold for the couple of seconds it takes to fall back to a legacy voice connection.

Play a little "rerouting" message in a pleasing voice to the person on hold. And then keep it on the legacy connection for the remainder of the call so that it doesn't keep happening throughout a call when in a marginal area.

[maxsilver]

To be clear: I'm not arguing that this is a great idea -- It's more than a little awkward. But Sprint / Google *could* handle VoLTE to 1x "handovers" just like Republic handles WiFi to cellular -- it doesn't actually require two radios.

- -

On a Republic Wireless phone, if you do something to disrupt your call on one radio, RW tries to handoff "seamlessly" to the other (two radio method, Conan mentions this above). This is a 'nice' experience, the call quality will shift, but you never loose voice service.

However, if *both* radios drop (loose both Wifi and cellular -- zero active radios), your end of the call drops entirely (no voice service), but Republic Wireless holds the call open and tries to call your phone back automatically. If it's successful, your "dropped" call suddenly resumes. (It's technically a new call as far as Sprint's concerned, but your other party is already on the line, and neither you nor they dialed anything or did anything to make that happen.)

Again, It's not an elegant solution -- very brute force. And if you loose both radios, it's awkward for a bit while your phone tries to reconnect. But it technically works. It's probably better than loosing a call entirely. And with no significant changes, it could work identically on VoLTE to 1x transitions, despite having only one radio.
 

With Google voice, you are essentially on a conference call with you, your caller, and Google. If 1 person on a conference call drops off, the call can keep going. So if your VOIP drops, Google could put the call on hold for the couple of seconds it takes to fall back to a legacy voice connection.
Play a little "rerouting" message in a pleasing voice to the person on hold. And then keep it on the legacy connection for the remainder of the call so that it doesn't keep happening throughout a call when in a marginal area.

Yep, exactly.

 

My understanding is that this the same thing that Republic Wireless does to make handovers work when their nicer "seamless" method fails -- such as where there is no wifi and no cellular of any kind.

[sdiamond85]

I think we have to look at how this came about. Earlier in the thread someone said this is Google doing the Tmo - Sprint merger on their own terms. I agree. I thought something like this would happen. I think the key to this deal is Masayohshi Son, and by extension, Marcelo Calure.

 

Mr. Son went to school at UCLA and UC Berkeley. He studied computers after getting a meeting with the head of McDonald's Japan. 

 

What does everyone get in this deal?

 

SOFTBANK:

Mr. Son will get a stock rise on Softbank and Sprint, it also puts Sprint as a potential buy out target for Google. I don't think Son will sell until Sprint takes alot more market share. I think he wants to be as big a player in the US as he is in Japan. The stock of Sprint and Softbank are going up.

 

Marcelo Claure with his brightstar experience brings a deep knowledge of handsets, and dealing with all the vendors. I would bet money he eventually jumps to google.  

 

Sprint gets capital, and a real reason to make its network the best in the world.

 

GOOGLE

The one question I have here is since Google needs people to use their phones, and Iphone makes up a large chunk of their Ad revenue, to what degree will they make this new service Android only? I think what they do is try and have it both ways. Build a native app for Iphone but push the advantages of moving over to the full android experience. I don't think this is going to be an Android only service.

 

“Like everything else, you have to watch your friends more closely than your enemies, so we will be watching Google closely,” Verizon Chief Financial Officer Fran Shammo said of Google’s reported plans.

 

The saying generally is "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer"

 

I think this is google putting everyone on notice (ATT, Verizon, Comcast,) on notice they do not necessarily need them anymore, that Google has options.  Google has the option to push for the Fcc to regulate the internet as a utility. This would give google the right to access the same infrastructure (phone poles, conduit, equipment rights of way) Phone company's and cable companies have. This lets google deploy fibre much easier and cheaper.

 

The discussion of whether it's a good idea to have Google this powerful is for another time. My view is this is google looking to connect alot of dots, and they think Softbank with it's position in Asia, and the fact they can deal with Mr. Son directly helps them. They get a strong data network, and can say they are just an MVNO. They have their cake and eat it too.  I think that Google will come to the conclusion that it is easier to push for a stable 8 to 10 MB data experience. That you don't need a 100 mb wireless experience on cell networks. (this is not discounting the use of WIFI) Make all their services (search, Youtube,) work with 8 -10, share that technology with everyone (netflix especially). We may see service costs drop dramatically. 

[stuckinohio1]

to the above post ^ WALL OF TEXT! i only grazed over a little of what that guy wrote but i did see something about google buying sprint. the only thing i halfto say to that is LOL never. dont even consider it. softbank will never sell so just give up that dream. Nor will they buy T-Mobile. 

 

They have their fiber network to worry about right now and are smart enough to not just spend stupid amounts of money all at once.

[Jones]

Maybe I missed this somewhere in the thread but I'm not realizing how a Google MVNO is going to be such a big draw.

 

What extra service can Google provide by being an MVNO that it couldn't do with its Nexus or Google play edition phones? Why are people going to want Google as thier service provider?

[sbolen]

If Google were to acquire Sprint somehow and go Android-only, I'd leave the service.

[jeffcarp]

Maybe I missed this somewhere in the thread but I'm not realizing how a Google MVNO is going to be such a big draw.

 

What extra service can Google provide by being an MVNO that it couldn't do with its Nexus or Google play edition phones? Why are people going to want Google as thier service provider?

It could give Nexus hardware a big push since they don't have to worry about carriers deciding to adopt it or not and whether the carriers will support all of their features on it (such as wifi calling).

 

Google can also afford to operate it at break even to achieve whatever goals they have - something no other MVNO can do.

 

Clearly Google wants to control the delivery of their services across all platforms (wireless, wired, wearables, TV and autos).

[lou99/maximus1987]

It could give Nexus hardware a big push since they don't have to worry about carriers deciding to adopt it or not and whether the carriers will support all of their features on it (such as wifi calling).

 

Google can also afford to operate it at break even to achieve whatever goals they have - something no other MVNO can do.

 

Clearly Google wants to control the delivery of their services across all platforms (wireless, wired, wearables, TV and autos).

So are they gonna do this in every major country in world?