Steve Perlman claims to have a new approach to revolutionize wireless networks w pCell/Artemis

[JWMaloney]

I just want to know the business plan for Sprint & Dish for using something like this. What will they use it for? Just shoring up weak spots in their coverage and/or capacity? Fixed broadband? Wireless cable? OTT? All of the above?

 

He pretty much revealed Dish's business plan in the video -- build out with native pCell coverage and fall back on Sprint 3G coverage (labeled MVNO in the video) outside of that.

 

For Sprint, pCell would be the better alternative to building thousands of new metro sites.

[bigsnake49]

He pretty much revealed Dish's business plan in the video -- build out with native pCell coverage and fall back on Sprint 3G coverage (labeled MVNO in the video) outside of that.

 

For Sprint, pCell would be the better alternative to building thousands of new metro sites.

 

Yeah, they can start with a few pCells but eventually they will have to cover the whole country. You still have to build around 45-50,000 sites.

[JWMaloney]

Yeah, they can start with a few pCells but eventually they will have to cover the whole country. You still have to build around 45-50,000 sites.

 

There's no way they're going to build those sites. They'll host the spectrum on NV sites which goes nicely with them using Sprint voice coverage.

[bigsnake49]

There's no way they're going to build those sites. They'll host the spectrum on NV sites which goes nicely with them using Sprint voice coverage.

Which reminds me, when does Dish have to buildout their spectrum by?

[milan03]

There's no way they're going to build those sites. They'll host the spectrum on NV sites which goes nicely with them using Sprint voice coverage.

They don't have to built traditional site layout if they decide to go pCell native for example. They could introduce their service in urban markets initially, remember LOS and mesh networking with serendipitous deployment is what Artemis guys are proposing.

[JWMaloney]

They don't have to built traditional site layout if they decide to go pCell native for example. They could introduce their service in urban markets initially, remember LOS and mesh networking with serendipitous deployment iswhat Artemis guys are proposing.

 

The post I was quoting already said that. I was saying they won't have to build 45-50,000 sites if they go with pCell.

[milan03]

The post I was quoting already said that. I was saying they won't have to build 45-50,000 sites if they go with pCell.

Got that, but also they don't have to provide voice service at all. They could chose to focus on data and video content only. We also don't know if Sprint would be their choice for voice if they chose to go that route, considering CDMA UE licensing cost.

[Tajustin95]

This technology may be Sprint, Dish, and T-Mobile's master plan to use all their frequencies without any problem. As Perlman stated that pCell can be used with any frequency. So this would be a great way to merge right?

[milan03]

This technology may be Sprint, Dish, and T-Mobile's master plan to use all their frequencies without any problem. As Perlman stated that pCell can be used with any frequency. So this would be a great way to merge right?

If it works as advertised, it would be great for Sprint to overlay dense metro areas with pWave radios for TDD deployment. That has potential to deliver massive capacity, if Sprint keeps up with the high backhaul demands.

[bigsnake49]

If it works as advertised, it would be great for Sprint to overlay dense metro areas with pWave radios for TDD deployment. That has potential to deliver massive capacity, if Sprint keeps up with the high backhaul demands.

That's what I am afraid of. It also seems that they need verily low latency links particularly because of all the channel state info they have to pass back.

[bigsnake49]

If it works as advertised, it would be great for Sprint to overlay dense metro areas with pWave radios for TDD deployment. That has potential to deliver massive capacity, if Sprint keeps up with the high backhaul demands.

 

There are not that many dense metro areas in the US. Besides NYC, San Fran and the downtowns of the major cities, most of the US lives in suburban settings.

Edited May 8, 2014 by bigsnake49

[jamisonshaw125]

I wonder if sprint would market this as a premium service and charge up for it.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone 5s using Tapatalk

[bigsnake49]

I would love for Sprint/Dish to use this technology to offer fixed broadband/OTT video/audio over the EBS spectrum. Unobtrusive antennas mounted on poles or strand mounted.

[milan03]

There are not that many dense metro areas in the US. Besides NYC, San Fran and the downtowns of the major cities, most of the US lives in suburban settings.

Indeed, and that's why it's important to keep realistic expectations for Sprint's TDD deployment in terms of coverage. 2.6GHz can be a great capacity layer, but as far as conventional macro deployment goes, it's extremely uneconomic considering propagation and reach. It's not an easy task to seamlessly blanket suburban/rural with 2.6GHz.

 

But if they do proper planning and leverage pCell with LoS mesh, all of a sudden the game can easily change. Assuming that pCell actually works as advertised...

[lilotimz]

Indeed, and that's why it's important to keep realistic expectations for Sprint's TDD deployment in terms of coverage. 2.6GHz can be a great capacity layer, but as far as conventional macro deployment goes, it's extremely uneconomic considering propagation and reach. It's not an easy task to seamlessly blanket suburban/rural with 2.6MHz.

 

But if they do proper planning and leverage pCell with LoS mesh, all of a sudden the game can easily change. Assuming that pCell actually works as advertised...

 

Yeah I agree. The coastguard will be wondering why you're using their spectrum.  

[lordsutch]

Indeed, and that's why it's important to keep realistic expectations for Sprint's TDD deployment in terms of coverage. 2.6GHz can be a great capacity layer, but as far as conventional macro deployment goes, it's extremely uneconomic considering propagation and reach. It's not an easy task to seamlessly blanket suburban/rural with 2.6GHz.

 

As has been discussed ad nauseum, 8T8R on the 2.4-2.5GHz band largely makes up for the loss of propagation characteristics compared to 1900 (which at the G block is closer to 2.0 GHz anyway); unless you're in a market with cellular site spacing - hello Baton Rouge! - the 2.4-2.5 band can relieve most of the close-in and outdoor usage (out to something on the order of 80%+ of the area), leaving 1900 and ESMR for adequate service indoors at midrange and outdoors at distance. No, you're not going to get streaming 1080p60 video 5+ miles from the tower, but that's not what mobile broadband is for. Unless you're measuring e-peen on SpeedTest.net, or trying to use your phone to drive the Jerrytron, you shouldn't know or care.

 

Of course, the challenge now is to get 1900 and ESMR finished so the 2.4-2.5 deployment can begin in earnest, along with stop-gap measures like shifting some of the A-F block EvDO carriers to LTE.

[milan03]

As has been discussed ad nauseum, 8T8R on the 2.4-2.5GHz band largely makes up for the loss of propagation characteristics compared to 1900 (which at the G block is closer to 2.0 GHz anyway); unless you're in a market with cellular site spacing - hello Baton Rouge! - the 2.4-2.5 band can relieve most of the close-in and outdoor usage (out to something on the order of 80%+ of the area), leaving 1900 and ESMR for adequate service indoors at midrange and outdoors at distance. No, you're not going to get streaming 1080p60 video 5+ miles from the tower, but that's not what mobile broadband is for. Unless you're measuring e-peen on SpeedTest.net, or trying to use your phone to drive the Jerrytron, you shouldn't know or care.

 

Of course, the challenge now is to get 1900 and ESMR finished so the 2.4-2.5 deployment can begin in earnest, along with stop-gap measures like shifting some of the A-F block EvDO carriers to LTE.

Again, since I know that S4GRU members are much more technically savvy than most cellular users, I believe that it's very important to have the right expectations set in terms of what that TDD LTE coverage may look like. 8T8R radios won't magically extend 2.5GHz reach as that's physically impossible, but it should help those within the coverage area to get more usable TDD LTE experience. It'll mostly improve in building propagation when in close proximity to the cell site and usability in edge of cell situations only when on B41. That edge of cell on B41 should be well within the B25/B26 coverage area btw so you're most likely going to fall back to B25/26 anyway.

 

That brings me back to my previous post... If you're not getting proper PCS G LTE coverage in Sprint's fully deployed and launched LTE markets, it would be unrealistic to expect that B41 deployment will bring any coverage improvements, which brings us back to the subject of this topic, and that is potential pCell deployment and densification of Sprint's LTE network. Without substantial densification and proper backhaul all that massive 2.5GHz spectrum doesn't mean much, and it's very easy to have a very inefficient high band LTE network.

[lilotimz]

Again, since I know that S4GRU members are much more technically savvy than most cellular users, I believe that it's very important to have the right expectations set in terms of what that TDD LTE coverage may look like. 8T8R radios won't magically extend 2.5GHz reach as that's physically impossible, but it should help those within the coverage area to get more usable TDD LTE experience. It'll mostly improve in building propagation when in close proximity to the cell site and usability in edge of cell situations only when on B41. That edge of cell on B41 should be well within the B25/B26 coverage area btw so you're most likely going to fall back to B25/26 anyway.

 

Tha

 

Milan, I think most people recognize the physical limitations of the 2.5ghz frequency here. I believe that when people are saying "more range with 8t8r equipment" it means that the new physical antennas and radios can deliver usability to a far greater area than the older Clearwire 2T2R equipment just like how the Network Vision equipment with new antennas and radio heads have a far more usable range than the older legacy antennas. China Mobiles deployment of the same equipment did show that you only need half the number of cells to get the same coverage as the older equipment after all. 

 

Also agree with the need for densification of the network in many places. If Masayoshi Son wants a ubiquitous B41 network nationwide for international roaming then he needs that signal in every little crack and space in all the markets that sprint covers which means he needs more macro and micro cells. 

[bigsnake49]

More demos at the code conference:

 

This time they had 20 iPads simultaneously streaming different HD videos.

 

Perlman said that for a two-antenna device, the maximum throughput in 5 MHz of downlink spectrum is 8 bits per second per hertz. "We're going to be peaking at approximately 20 bits per second per hertz," he said.

 

Read more: Artemis claims pCell can 'blow the doors off' LTE spectral efficiency - FierceWireless http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/artemis-claims-pcell-can-blow-doors-lte-spectral-efficiency/2014-05-29#ixzz3381BGUpi 
 

[david279]

Could this be related

 

http://www.droid-life.com/2014/06/03/sprint-to-host-press-event-june-23-claims-this-is-happy-connecting/

 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[twospirits]

Note to self: do not read comments on other sites which are usually filled with idiotic Sprint haters.

 

 

 

TS

[The_Chemist]

Could this be related http://www.droid-life.com/2014/06/03/sprint-to-host-press-event-june-23-claims-this-is-happy-connecting/

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Very interesting.... We'll have to see what unfolds.

[milan03]

Latest FCC filling by Artemis, asking to reconsider 600MHz FDD spectrum plan, and allocate some TDD as it's more efficient and appropriate for pCell's High Order MIMO (spatial-multiplexing), and they can achieve exponential increase in spectral efficiency: 

 

http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=7522712418

[bigsnake49]

Latest FCC filling by Artemis, asking to reconsider 600MHz FDD spectrum plan, and allocate some TDD as it's more efficient and appropriate for pCell's High Order MIMO (spatial-multiplexing), and they can achieve exponential increase in spectral efficiency: 

 

http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/view?id=7522712418

 

I am really interested in seeing pCell in the real world. Can't wait for commercial scale deployments.

[milan03]

Well it's been a year since the pCell original presentation, finally we're getting some activity. 

 

THE WHITEPAPER IS FINALLY HERE: http://www.rearden.com/artemis/An-Introduction-to-pCell-White-Paper-150224.pdf

 

 

 

DISH will Lease Spectrum in San Francisco to Artemis for World’s First pCell Deployment Artemis I Hub Available for pCell Venue and Indoor Trials

pCell compatible with off-the-shelf LTE devices such as iPhone 6, iPad Air 2 and Android devices

 

 

San Francisco, CA – February 24, 2014 – Artemis Networks LLC today announced that DISH, through its wholly-owned subsidiary American H Block Wireless L.L.C., would lease certain H Block mobile spectrum in San Francisco to Artemis for up to two years for the world’s first deployment of pCellTM wireless technology, subject to FCC approval.

 

pCell is a new approach to wireless that indoor testing has demonstrated delivering full-speed mobile data to every mobile device concurrently, regardless of how many users are sharing the same spectrum, thus achieving greater capacity than conventional LTE. Building on this testing, the first pCell service will be deployed in San Francisco subject to FCC approval.

 

Rather than avoiding interference like conventional wireless technologies, pCell technology exploits interference, combining interfering radio waves to create an unshared personal cell (a “pCell”) for each LTE device, providing the full wireless capacity to each user at once, even at extremely high user density.

 

To use the Artemis pCell service in the DISH-leased spectrum band, users will simply insert an Artemis SIM card into an LTE device, for example, an iPhone 6/6 Plus, iPad Air 2 or spectrum-compatible Android device. In the case of new universal SIMs that are just coming on the market, it’s even easier: users will simply choose Artemis as their LTE service on the screen. The device will then connect to

Artemis pCell service as it would to any LTE service, but unlike cellular LTE service, Artemis expects that pCell will deliver consistently high speed throughout the coverage area, even in very high-density scenarios. If the user needs service outside of San Francisco, they will have the option of subscribing to roaming cellular service, which will be provided through an MVNO.

 

Artemis also announced today the availability of the Artemis I Hub for venue and indoor trials. The Artemis I Hub provides pCell service through 32 distributed antennas, delivering up to 1.5 Gbps in shared spectrum to off-the-shelf LTE devices, with frequency agility from 600 MHz to 6 GHz, enabling pCell operation in any mobile band. Frequency-agile pWaveTM remote radio heads for outdoor use will be available later this year. Artemis Hubs and pWaves enable rapid deployment at a fraction of the installation and operating cost of conventional LTE infrastructure. Artemis Hubs and pWaves are also much simpler to deploy than conventional mobile infrastructure, opening the door for a wide range of partners to deploy Artemis infrastructure, starting initially throughout San Francisco.

 

“We are delighted to introduce pCell to the world with the availability of the Artemis I Hub for trials,” said Steve Perlman, Artemis founder and CEO. “The Artemis I Hub enables partners to test pCell in indoor and venue scenarios using off-the-shelf LTE devices, such as iPhone 6/6 Plus, iPad Air 2 and Android devices.”