Steve Perlman claims to have a new approach to revolutionize wireless networks w pCell/Artemis

[TaiKing]

If this proves to be possible on a wide scale and works anything like he claims it can this could have huge potential.

 

http://www.wired.com/business/2014/02/steve_perlman_pcell/

 

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-02-18/steve-perlmans-amazing-wireless-machine-is-finally-here

 

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57619072-94/is-pcell-the-holy-grail-of-wireless-networking/

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/19/technology/wireless-system-could-offer-a-private-fast-lane.html?_r=0

 

http://www.artemis.com/

[MrZorbatron]

If this proves to be possible on a wide scale and works anything like he claims it can this could have huge potential.

 

http://www.wired.com/business/2014/02/steve_perlman_pcell/

 

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-02-18/steve-perlmans-amazing-wireless-machine-is-finally-here

 

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-57619072-94/is-pcell-the-holy-grail-of-wireless-networking/

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/19/technology/wireless-system-could-offer-a-private-fast-lane.html?_r=0

 

http://www.artemis.com/

This is complete nonsense... bullshit even.

 

First off, backhaul requirements would be insane. Second, it would have to take advantage of some sort of intersecting polarizations or something, which would be insanely delicate to set up and maintain. Third, the processing requirements at both the head end/central office and the phone/device, would be huge. Fourth, it would need a lot more than a new SIM card, it would need an entirely new type of radio. Fifth, the speeds he is suggesting would require such a complicated modulation scheme that interference would become a huge factor, even something as simple as multipath would make it unusable.

[TaiKing]

This is complete nonsense... bullshit even.

 

First off, backhaul requirements would be insane. Second, it would have to take advantage of some sort of intersecting polarizations or something, which would be insanely delicate to set up and maintain. Third, the processing requirements at both the head end/central office and the phone/device, would be huge. Fourth, it would need a lot more than a new SIM card, it would need an entirely new type of radio. Fifth, the speeds he is suggesting would require such a complicated modulation scheme that interference would become a huge factor, even something as simple as multipath would make it unusable.

 

Yeah it definitely sounds ridiculous, if this is real he's got to have a lot more to show if he's going to prove it is based in reality.

[MrZorbatron]

I have a hard time with the fact that the people he is demoing this for are journalists and mostly not particularly technical. In the second link, it is stated that his machine sent a signal directly into a device. How do we know it isn't omnidirectional? How do we know that the signal in that mysterious little bubble around the device is at all dissimilar to the signal a few inches, feet, or yards away?

 

Eight high definition streams to eight iPhones? Any old DWL2100AP could handle that. The 4K video? Do we trust that it's actually 4K and not just UHD? Either way, 450Mbps 802.11n setup could handle that before its morning coffee. Sounds like he's demoing wifi to me. Take the device apart ans post a few pictures. Are there specialized chipsets in there or is it Broadcom or perhaps Atheros?

 

There's too much obfuscation and not enough explanation in all of this. Everything here reads like an attempt to keep us from understanding, perhaps to secure the investments of the idiot.

 

Now, am I a total radio specialist? No. I am an electrical engineer with a hobby in radio, whose business includes high speed radio connections. I would just as soon believe in subspace radio as in this.

[bigsnake49]

I have a hard time with the fact that the people he is demoing this for are journalists and mostly not particularly technical. In the second link, it is stated that his machine sent a signal directly into a device. How do we know it isn't omnidirectional? How do we know that the signal in that mysterious little bubble around the device is at all dissimilar to the signal a few inches, feet, or yards away?

 

Eight high definition streams to eight iPhones? Any old DWL2100AP could handle that. The 4K video? Do we trust that it's actually 4K and not just UHD? Either way, 450Mbps 802.11n setup could handle that before its morning coffee. Sounds like he's demoing wifi to me. Take the device apart ans post a few pictures. Are there specialized chipsets in there or is it Broadcom or perhaps Atheros?

 

There's too much obfuscation and not enough explanation in all of this. Everything here reads like an attempt to keep us from understanding, perhaps to secure the investments of the idiot.

 

Now, am I a total radio specialist? No. I am an electrical engineer with a hobby in radio, whose business includes high speed radio connections. I would just as soon believe in subspace radio as in this.

 

It is OK to be skeptical. As an old EE, trained in calssical RF, I was highly skeptical of multipath, QAM, cross-polarization, beam forming, etc. But they work. It could be an extreme case of beam forming!

 

The man is putting his money where his mouth is. He is building a netwok in San Fran then, NY, then other large cities. The proof is in the pudding. Let it play out! 

Edited February 19, 2014 by bigsnake49

[MrZorbatron]

It is OK to be skeptical. As an old EE, trained in calssical RF, I was highly skeptical of multipath, QAM, cross-polarization, beam forming, etc. But they work. It could be an extreme case of beam forming!

 

The man is putting his money where his mouth is. He is building a netwok in San Fran then, NY, then other large cities. The proof is in the pudding. Let it play out! 

 

Well, multipath has yet to be used to any seriously helpful effect, though it has been pretty well mitigated in many cases on modern airlinks.  802.11n is the standard that comes closest to trying.  QAM has come a long way from what it was when it was first brought out, and has far more potential than was expected by most traditionalists.  I have no issue with cross polarization as used to retain orthogonality, though in my first post here, I said intersecting because I am not even sure the proper word to use.

 

Pretty much it sounds like he is talking about a selectively phased and polarized signal that would be detected correctly only in a specific location, and the components of which would be encoded in such a way that in other locations and combined with other components of other signals, they would carry different data.  Kind of like a "beam forming plus" where you are actually using different parts of a signal in different ways.  Phased array radar came to mind for a bit while I was half asleep thinking about this last night.  I still can't see this working with a conventional LTE radio on the device, which he claims to be using.  The device would be extremely sensitive to physical orientation as well as position.  How would position be tracked with such granularity?

 

I love finding ways to bend/break the rules. I do not have any problems with others who find ways to do things other than those that come to my mind.  I just like technical explanation and not technical-sounding buzzwords and "consumer-grade" high tech terms coming from professionals.

[bigsnake49]

Well, multipath has yet to be used to any seriously helpful effect, though it has been pretty well mitigated in many cases on modern airlinks.  802.11n is the standard that comes closest to trying.  QAM has come a long way from what it was when it was first brought out, and has far more potential than was expected by most traditionalists.  I have no issue with cross polarization as used to retain orthogonality, though in my first post here, I said intersecting because I am not even sure the proper word to use.

 

Pretty much it sounds like he is talking about a selectively phased and polarized signal that would be detected correctly only in a specific location, and the components of which would be encoded in such a way that in other locations and combined with other components of other signals, they would carry different data.  Kind of like a "beam forming plus" where you are actually using different parts of a signal in different ways.  Phased array radar came to mind for a bit while I was half asleep thinking about this last night.  I still can't see this working with a conventional LTE radio on the device, which he claims to be using.  The device would be extremely sensitive to physical orientation as well as position.  How would position be tracked with such granularity?

 

I love finding ways to bend/break the rules. I do not have any problems with others who find ways to do things other than those that come to my mind.  I just like technical explanation and not technical-sounding buzzwords and "consumer-grade" high tech terms coming from professionals.

 

He is not going to release any technical details because people (read Chinese, Koreans) will clone it and he will have to stop them in court. As I said, let it play out. I will let those that are in SF, then NYC test it for me. Or the technical sites. 

[MrZorbatron]

He is not going to release any technical details because people (read Chinese, Koreans) will clone it and he will have to stop them in court. As I said, let it play out. I will let those that are in SF, then NYC test it for me. Or the technical sites. 

 

He could give a little bit of real information and just stay away from the sensitive parts.  I don't expect a book on it.  Enough content to fill an index card (unillustrated) would be nice.

[jamisonshaw125]

Can someone TL;DR that read it. After reading Mr. Zorbatron's post about it being BS, I am not sure I want to dedicate a few minutes to reading it.

[TaiKing]

Can someone TL;DR that read it. After reading Mr. Zorbatron's post about it being BS, I am not sure I want to dedicate a few minutes to reading it.

 

If you watch the pretty short video on the front page of the artemis.com link it sums up what they are claiming they can do pretty well. He's also supposed to be demoing this thing at some point today at Columbia University, when he does that he really needs to show something more concrete to prove that this is all working like he claims.

[jamisonshaw125]

I'll believe it when I see it. I do not see how this is feasible at this present moment.

[bigsnake49]

I am pretty sure that at some point, the tech will be tested in a Faraday cage and analyzed via a scope. Then tested in a real world scenario as well.

[Geesmill]

I don't know if I would call bs on this just yet.  If it is for real then watch out.  This guy has been behind some nice projects in the past and it they have some pretty slick demos.  That said there is a lot of vaporware in the world, with any luck this will be concrete.

[jefbal99]

I remember reading about this a year or two ago and thinking it would be impossible, however, if he's ready to Demo and move on from that, then lets rock.  This could be a massive shift in the wireless world, similar to going from original wireless to AMPS.

[miguell2]

Here is a better explanation, not very technical.

http://www.rearden.com/DIDO/DIDO_White_Paper_110727.pdf

[Rawvega]

From my very limited understanding of how this technology works, the concept seems fascinating. It appears that Perlman may be using Clearwire spectrum for his demonstration.

 

http://stevencrowley.com/2013/06/21/rearden-discloses-more-experimental-details-at-fccs-request-plans-to-use-clearwire-spectrum/

 

Let’s look at the request for confidentiality. Rearden requests confidentiality for Exhibit 2 – Description of Experiment, Exhibit 3 – Technical Information, and Exhibit 4 – Spectrum Use Document, saying they contain information that is “not available to the public.” Rearden also says “The services and technologies that are the subject of this application for ERS authority have not yet been fully developed but are expected to lead to material developments in markets subject to fierce competition from multiple U.S. and non-U.S. third parties who are exploring comparable services and technology.”

 

Looking at the application form, Rearden wants to test 100 each of four different types of experimental devices, for a total of 400. Testing is to be conducted in the San Francisco area within a 10-kilometer radius of a specified set of coordinates that plot about one kilometer southeast of the financial district. A couple days ago FCC staff sent another email to Rearden’s attorney asking for justification of the need for 400 units.

 

The frequency band requested is the same for all devices: 2573-2583 MHz. According to the FCC’s database, this spectrum is licensed to Clearwire, and presumably Rearden has the necessary permissions (probably covering that issue in one of its confidential exhibits).

 

 

If it were to pan out I wonder if that would give Sprint any leg up in trying to adapt the technology.

[JaywalkerOperating]

Here is a better explanation, not very technical.

 

http://www.rearden.com/DIDO/DIDO_White_Paper_110727.pdf

After reading that it seems to me like this is just another name for cooperative multi-point.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_diversity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aBL7BUqxjI

[milan03]

From my very limited understanding of how this technology works, the concept seems fascinating. It appears that Perlman may be using Clearwire spectrum for his demonstration.

 

http://stevencrowley.com/2013/06/21/rearden-discloses-more-experimental-details-at-fccs-request-plans-to-use-clearwire-spectrum/

 

 

If it were to pan out I wonder if that would give Sprint any leg up in trying to adapt the technology.

USB dongles in his videos seem to be commercial T-Mobile UE, which indicates that he is utilizing 10Mhz of AWS spectrum. http://www.artemis.com/pcell

I'm just unclear whether he means 5Mhz FDD LTE or 10Mhz FDD LTE. He does talk about having only 10Mhz experimental license, and wireless operators using much "larger" 20 or 40Mhz swaths, so I'm leaning towards 5Mhz FDD LTE being used in his demo lab.

 

 

Since he is running two "UHD" Netflix streams typically sent @15.6Mbps each, along with four 1080p streams at 5.8Mbps each, it's safe to say assume that his pCell solution exceeds capacity of our typical 5Mhz FDD LTE network which maxes out at 37Mbps.

 

To my eye this looks legit and pretty innovative although we don't exactly know how this works. I'm also guessing tweaked case of beamforming, requiring massive data center and backhaul infrastructure. Knowing that Sprint isn't afraid of jumping onto new innovative technologies, my guess is that we'll see this on Sprint's 2.6Ghz network sooner rather than later.

[bigsnake49]

USB dongles in his videos seem to be commercial T-Mobile UE, which indicates that he is utilizing 10Mhz of AWS spectrum. http://www.artemis.com/pcell

I'm just unclear whether he means 5Mhz FDD LTE or 10Mhz FDD LTE. He does talk about having only 10Mhz experimental license, and wireless operators using much "larger" 20 or 40Mhz swaths, so I'm leaning towards 5Mhz FDD LTE being used in his demo lab.

 

 

Since he is running two "UHD" Netflix streams typically sent @15.6Mbps each, along with four 1080p streams at 5.8Mbps each, it's safe to say assume that his pCell solution exceeds capacity of our typical 5Mhz FDD LTE network which maxes out at 37Mbps.

 

To my eye this looks legit and pretty innovative although we don't exactly know how this works. I'm also guessing tweaked case of beamforming, requiring massive data center and backhaul infrastructure. Knowing that Sprint isn't afraid of jumping onto new innovative technologies, my guess is that we'll see this on Sprint's 2.6Ghz network sooner rather than later.

 

They definitely were testing on band 41 spectrum as well.

[WiWavelength]

Here is a better explanation, not very technical.

 

http://www.rearden.com/DIDO/DIDO_White_Paper_110727.pdf

 

I am glad you posted that link.  It reminded me that I read that white paper two years ago and still have it on my SSD.

 

AJ

[WiWavelength]

Moving away from the DIDO name is a lost opportunity for a marketing tie in with singer Dido Armstrong.  Purr...

 

 

AJ

[ArtemisNetworks]

Great questions. We're glad you're interested.

 

at Columbia University for the Engineering faculty and students might answer a few of them...

 

 

[bigsnake49]

I would love to know exactly how it works, but then as long as it does, they don't have to tell me .

[jamisonshaw125]

This could get pretty interesting. Would have loved to see the question and answer portion.

[miguell2]

Great questions. We're glad you're interested.

 

at Columbia University for the Engineering faculty and students might answer a few of them...

 

Do you have anymore insights on how this tech would ultimately work, it looks from what I have seen so far (I have not seen the demo above yet) that the tests are done in small close networks, how would it scale up to a network with hundreds of users?

 

The way I have read about it so far it sounds a lot like adaptive optics used by telescopes.